Roadster 3.0
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stevejust
T E S L A x (≡)
Even as an owner of a 1.5, I think this sentiment by @Dean412 is taking things a little too far. I'm obviously not happy about no 3.0 availability for my car. And I do believe not having the 3.0 upgrade option will decimate the resale value of the 1.5s. But I didn't buy it with the intention of reselling it, and I just don't feel like Tesla owes us all that much. (Though I did buy a sig model specifically because I was curious to see how much the money I spent on the sig would do vs. putting the same dollar amount in the stock at the same time. As of today, not well at all.)
I suspect it's too soon to be too worked up over this. There are people with 1.5s who have BROs, and we're just going to have to wait to see how Tesla deals with that before I'm ready to say any Electric Automobile Dream has been ended.
To date, there still is no other car I'd rather have than the Roadster. And there's really nothing on the horizon that changes that.
Now, when I get stranded somewhere due to the decreasing range and the car truly becomes a paperweight, I will change my mind. But even with things running on Tesla Time(r), there's still plenty of opportunity for this all to work out okay in the end.
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I may not have a 1.5, but I am still quite perturbed about these recent revelations. How long has Tesla known they couldn't do the upgrade for 1.5's is the biggest question in my mind. BTW, I also will not be affected by the huge increase in Ranger visit costs that I just read about in another thread, but that bothers me, too. It speaks to what seems to be a disturbing trend in how Tesla relates to customers in general. I sincerely hope I am only seeing only the result of poor communication, rather than policies. I agree that everyone should communicate how they feel to Mr. Musk and whatever other Tesla executives are involved in policy-making. Perhaps someone can post as to whom we should speak with in Tesla and what the best way to make contact is?
ecarfan
Well-Known Member
You are deeply mistaken if you think that Tesla failing to provide the 500 Roadster 1.5 owners (actually fewer than 500 are still on the road due to accidents) with a higher capacity battery than the original battery is going to result in the failure of Tesla and the EV movement. That is absurd. In the world of automobile manufacturing, 500 cars is a rounding error.
I believe that Tesla will continue to attempt to repair failed 1.5 batteries on an as needed basis. My concern is that, as near as I can tell right now, Tesla will continue to use the original cell type and the supply of those is not only limited but aging and therefore degrading with time.
I hope that in the near future Tesla will make an announcement as to how they will handle 1.5 battery repair in the future. Tesla owes at least that to their earliest supporters.
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djf
Member
Originally Posted by Dean412 : The reality Roadster owners will have to face one day is Tesla has failed to support the Roadster charging needs as indicated by Tesla's reluctance to install HPC 70 AMP charging connections at all of the Supercharger stations, as they were being installed across the USA and elsewhere. Elon Musk referred to Range Anxiety not being an issue with the Model S buyers but has failed the Roadster owners who enjoy driving beyond the cities we live in, therefore the very individuals who supported Tesla by purchasing the Roadsters in the beginning, NOW have Range Anxiety and lack of future Battery support.
Not only has this battery upgrade failed us , but it also has lessened the resale value of our Roadsters.
The day will come when all 2400 Tesla Roadster owners will be the proud owners of a Tesla Roadster Paper Weight ...
RE Dean 412's post (above), BartJ's suggestion (though he may have meant it half tongue-in-cheek) is a good one.
And it should very importantly be coupled with Henry Sharp's Buddha-like reflections on the importance of remaining optimistic and stevejust's key conclusion which Tesla Motors would do very well to consider most carefully:
" There's still plenty of opportunity for this all to work out okay in the end."
I believe it will work out, i.e., there will indeed be an eventual solution for the 1.5 battery future. But a motivated to "do the right thing" workgroup at Tesla Motors will need to be on top of this, and soon. Do any of the original Roadster owners - an august and special group if you ask me - have a way of getting the message to Tesla Motors' upper echelons and perhaps even You-know-who?
Not only has this battery upgrade failed us , but it also has lessened the resale value of our Roadsters.
The day will come when all 2400 Tesla Roadster owners will be the proud owners of a Tesla Roadster Paper Weight ...
RE Dean 412's post (above), BartJ's suggestion (though he may have meant it half tongue-in-cheek) is a good one.
And it should very importantly be coupled with Henry Sharp's Buddha-like reflections on the importance of remaining optimistic and stevejust's key conclusion which Tesla Motors would do very well to consider most carefully:
" There's still plenty of opportunity for this all to work out okay in the end."
I believe it will work out, i.e., there will indeed be an eventual solution for the 1.5 battery future. But a motivated to "do the right thing" workgroup at Tesla Motors will need to be on top of this, and soon. Do any of the original Roadster owners - an august and special group if you ask me - have a way of getting the message to Tesla Motors' upper echelons and perhaps even You-know-who?
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ecarfan
Well-Known Member
I was not aware that Tesla ever committed to doing that, particularly since the Supercharger Network did not exist when the Roadster was in production.
No auto manufacturer is obligated in any way to keep every car they have ever built on the road and running for an indefinite period. That is what you appear to be saying and that is absurd.
Of course at some point in the future parts cease to become available from the manufacturer. Sometimes third party sources step into supply parts if they perceive there is a profitable opportunity to provide them.
Tesla does have an obligation to provide replacement parts for a reasonable period of time. What is "reasonable" of course depends on your point of view. Some countries have laws about the timeframe parts have to be made available.
Mark77a
Member
I agree - whilst before I bought mine, I was sceptical (especially as that was around the time Kevin was mouthing off in the UK) - not anymore.
I simply can't think of any other car that I'd prefer.
Even an EV conversion of the best of the best from the ICE roadster world would not be close (all the hassle of stuff going wrong - if it can, it will, and will cost !!). I am happy that Tesla have offered a replacement battery for much less than the $40K expected - AND with more range, Win-Win !
I intend to keep mine running as long as it will and this IS looking good: Lotus Elise Chassis' are holding up well after 20 years and my battery is currently about 94% of its new capacity after 4 1/2 years. Tesla service has been Stella, and when warranties are out, I am happy to pay for repairs.
as Steve says: To date, there still is no other car I'd rather have than the Roadster.
smorgasbord
Active Member
What is indisputable is that of all the things at which Tesla is good, Communication is not one of them.
Had Elon mentioned the battery technology incompatibilities between the 1.5s and 2.Xs earlier (He's had over 2 years since promising "something special for Roadster owners"), we wouldn't be beating Tesla up so badly. It's like in politics where they say the cover-up is worse than the crime, here setting expectations high and then not correcting them until AFTER the product is made available is what has created such outrage (and I do understand not everyone with a v1.5 is outraged).
If at the time of the 360 mile trip from LA to SF (or whatever the actual cities were), they had mentioned that the pack on which they were working was going to be compatible with just the V2.5s, things wouldn't be so bad. They could explain some of the technical differences and set the stage.
But to announce that it's available for all Roadster owners and then to go back and literally cancel some orders with almost no explanation and literally no reassurance to V1.5 owners that replacement batteries at original capacity will nonetheless be available, especially to owners with BROs, is incompetent.
Tesla needs to get its Communication act in order.
Had Elon mentioned the battery technology incompatibilities between the 1.5s and 2.Xs earlier (He's had over 2 years since promising "something special for Roadster owners"), we wouldn't be beating Tesla up so badly. It's like in politics where they say the cover-up is worse than the crime, here setting expectations high and then not correcting them until AFTER the product is made available is what has created such outrage (and I do understand not everyone with a v1.5 is outraged).
If at the time of the 360 mile trip from LA to SF (or whatever the actual cities were), they had mentioned that the pack on which they were working was going to be compatible with just the V2.5s, things wouldn't be so bad. They could explain some of the technical differences and set the stage.
But to announce that it's available for all Roadster owners and then to go back and literally cancel some orders with almost no explanation and literally no reassurance to V1.5 owners that replacement batteries at original capacity will nonetheless be available, especially to owners with BROs, is incompetent.
Tesla needs to get its Communication act in order.
Bradleybang
Member
I just got a call from Tesla rep (unsolicited) to talk to me about the battery upgrade. I advised her I was aware and was thinking of holding off a couple of years as happy with my current battery. She advised that there is no planned take it or leave it date. She said they do plan on having a new tire by year end too. No knowledge of timing on brakes, bearings and mod kits.
I also told her they should get with engineering and then communicating to 1.0-1.5 owners on their fate. They in parts sales at service in Fremont are aware of the issues but don't have any info they can pass on at this moment.
I also told her they should get with engineering and then communicating to 1.0-1.5 owners on their fate. They in parts sales at service in Fremont are aware of the issues but don't have any info they can pass on at this moment.
ChadS
Last tank of gas: March 2009
Here's how I see events unfolding. Of course, this is ENTIRELY from my imagination. I have absolutely zero inside knowledge. But it seems to fit how things operate there. Actually I could see this sort of thing happening at almost any startup when it involves an upgrade for a non-critical product. Well, that and a very sharp CEO that likes to maintain full control over details, and only likes to give good news. (I have been CTO at a startup with a CEO very much like that. Perhaps I am projecting here).
0. July 2013, at the Teslive conference, an attendee asks Musks about Roadster support. Musk answers, completely off the cuff, "in 2014, we'll circle back and do something nice for Roadster owners".
1. No other Tesla employee has any idea what he's thinking. If they ask, Musk says they'll worry about it later. Musk has several more important things to focus on.
2. Around late 2014, employees and tweeters remind Musk of his promise. "&%@!", he says. He thinks for 30 seconds, and remembers that employees have been periodically reminding him they have to provide replacement Roadster batteries, and soon because they are nearly out. His 3-legged stool for convincing the masses that EVs are great consists of:
a) Supercharging. Supercharging is hard to provide for the Roadster, not something that has to be done anyways, and won't provide more vehicle sales or additional brand halo. Next.
b) Performance. Making the Roadster really quick could help with the brand halo, but it requires many things (battery, PEM, motor, firmware, etc) to be upgraded. It will be incredibly expensive, yet still slower than an AWD Model S, so it won't grab headlines. Besides, he wants top performance to be in the Model S to attract more high-profit sales.
c) Range. He can't just throw a ton of batteries at the Model S because until the Gigafactory opens, they are very expensive and in limited quantities. But he can provide a brand halo without using a ton of batteries - and in a way where he doesn't care about costs - by making the Roadster's range incredible. And it can use very little valuable engineering time if they just replace cells in the pack. He spends 5 more seconds calculating from figures JB gave him that they could use cutting-edge batteries to make the Roadster go nearly 400 miles - a suitable number that will definitely get press.
He immediately uses that as his answer - a 400-mile battery is coming for the Roadster.
3. The next day, several Tesla employees freak out. Are we really going to charge that much - that will be more than most Roadsters are worth! It may weigh just enough we will have to do crash testing. How will we handle the cheap BROs when we offer a pack that expensive? And who knows, maybe there are, say, voltage-related technical issues using that type of cell in the old Roadster pack. "&%@!", Musk says again. But he is a quick problem solver. Put one battery engineer half-time on putting together a reasonably-priced pack that gets us as far as we can. And that aero/drag specialist that has been using a Roadster mule to get numbers for Model 3 planning, have her work half time to offer the best tire/wheel/brake options she can find for the Roadster. Let's see if that gets us close to 400 miles. Let me know tomorrow at 9am.
4. Calculations are done late in to the night, a powerpoint is thrown together, and it looks like without too much effort they can get to 340 miles by December, with a battery price below that of an 85kWh Model S. "&%@!", Musk says again. He starts saying "360 miles" and "August" in public. The managers of the two half time employees each say "it looks like you should try to do a little better". The battery engineer picks a slightly more expensive cell; while pushing the new pack price above Model S pricing, it will still make the new pack cheaper than the old pack. The drag expert starts adding aero mods. Essentially nobody else in the company has any inkling that any of this is happening.
5. The battery engineer finds a problem (PEM problem? ACP patent issue?) applying the battery change to 1.5 Roadsters. He notifies his manager, who mentions it to Musk in the next meeting. "&%@!", Musk says. He tells the manager to do the 2.x first because it is easier and affects more cars, then tackle the 1.5 problem - and then promptly forgets about it.
6. In early August, Musk asks the managers why these projects are not done. The managers point out the other S and X work that the employees have been pulled off to do. "&%@!", Musk says. When can I have something? The aero/drag stuff isn't ready to show, but the single battery that has been put together works as expected in a 2.x vehicle.
7. Just as Model X config happened at the last possible minute in August, Musk decides to announce the battery. He asks somebody from the comm team that has never heard of it to write something about it in less than an hour. He gives them the name of the battery manager, who is sleeping and doesn't answer his phone because it is the middle of the night. The poor communications employee writes what he can. Realizing customers will want more info, he alerts the online team that the store should have an entry for this. A hapless employee there cobbles together something; like the comm employee, she has no way to communicate with the employee that worked on the battery or his manager. And Musk is the only other person in the company that has ever been told it doesn't yet work with 1.5.
8. Word of the battery upgrade gets out, cries of joy spread, people place orders. Finally the battery employee realizes a public announcement has been made, and that it's missing some caveats. Word of the battery upgrade finally spreads to more than a handful of employees. Problems are realized - how fast can we build the batteries? How do we decide where to send them? How do we train the service center employees? And, oh no, they won't work with 1.5s.
9. The battery manager is elected to remind Musk that the batteries don't work with 1.5. Musk is a fast problem solver, and suggests a solution. This solution is being worked on now. But Musk only delivers good news. Saying "sorry, we goofed, 1.5s will have to wait and we don't know how long yet" is not good news. Customers complain, but Musk has always preferred silence until he can deliver good news. So we wait...
0. July 2013, at the Teslive conference, an attendee asks Musks about Roadster support. Musk answers, completely off the cuff, "in 2014, we'll circle back and do something nice for Roadster owners".
1. No other Tesla employee has any idea what he's thinking. If they ask, Musk says they'll worry about it later. Musk has several more important things to focus on.
2. Around late 2014, employees and tweeters remind Musk of his promise. "&%@!", he says. He thinks for 30 seconds, and remembers that employees have been periodically reminding him they have to provide replacement Roadster batteries, and soon because they are nearly out. His 3-legged stool for convincing the masses that EVs are great consists of:
a) Supercharging. Supercharging is hard to provide for the Roadster, not something that has to be done anyways, and won't provide more vehicle sales or additional brand halo. Next.
b) Performance. Making the Roadster really quick could help with the brand halo, but it requires many things (battery, PEM, motor, firmware, etc) to be upgraded. It will be incredibly expensive, yet still slower than an AWD Model S, so it won't grab headlines. Besides, he wants top performance to be in the Model S to attract more high-profit sales.
c) Range. He can't just throw a ton of batteries at the Model S because until the Gigafactory opens, they are very expensive and in limited quantities. But he can provide a brand halo without using a ton of batteries - and in a way where he doesn't care about costs - by making the Roadster's range incredible. And it can use very little valuable engineering time if they just replace cells in the pack. He spends 5 more seconds calculating from figures JB gave him that they could use cutting-edge batteries to make the Roadster go nearly 400 miles - a suitable number that will definitely get press.
He immediately uses that as his answer - a 400-mile battery is coming for the Roadster.
3. The next day, several Tesla employees freak out. Are we really going to charge that much - that will be more than most Roadsters are worth! It may weigh just enough we will have to do crash testing. How will we handle the cheap BROs when we offer a pack that expensive? And who knows, maybe there are, say, voltage-related technical issues using that type of cell in the old Roadster pack. "&%@!", Musk says again. But he is a quick problem solver. Put one battery engineer half-time on putting together a reasonably-priced pack that gets us as far as we can. And that aero/drag specialist that has been using a Roadster mule to get numbers for Model 3 planning, have her work half time to offer the best tire/wheel/brake options she can find for the Roadster. Let's see if that gets us close to 400 miles. Let me know tomorrow at 9am.
4. Calculations are done late in to the night, a powerpoint is thrown together, and it looks like without too much effort they can get to 340 miles by December, with a battery price below that of an 85kWh Model S. "&%@!", Musk says again. He starts saying "360 miles" and "August" in public. The managers of the two half time employees each say "it looks like you should try to do a little better". The battery engineer picks a slightly more expensive cell; while pushing the new pack price above Model S pricing, it will still make the new pack cheaper than the old pack. The drag expert starts adding aero mods. Essentially nobody else in the company has any inkling that any of this is happening.
5. The battery engineer finds a problem (PEM problem? ACP patent issue?) applying the battery change to 1.5 Roadsters. He notifies his manager, who mentions it to Musk in the next meeting. "&%@!", Musk says. He tells the manager to do the 2.x first because it is easier and affects more cars, then tackle the 1.5 problem - and then promptly forgets about it.
6. In early August, Musk asks the managers why these projects are not done. The managers point out the other S and X work that the employees have been pulled off to do. "&%@!", Musk says. When can I have something? The aero/drag stuff isn't ready to show, but the single battery that has been put together works as expected in a 2.x vehicle.
7. Just as Model X config happened at the last possible minute in August, Musk decides to announce the battery. He asks somebody from the comm team that has never heard of it to write something about it in less than an hour. He gives them the name of the battery manager, who is sleeping and doesn't answer his phone because it is the middle of the night. The poor communications employee writes what he can. Realizing customers will want more info, he alerts the online team that the store should have an entry for this. A hapless employee there cobbles together something; like the comm employee, she has no way to communicate with the employee that worked on the battery or his manager. And Musk is the only other person in the company that has ever been told it doesn't yet work with 1.5.
8. Word of the battery upgrade gets out, cries of joy spread, people place orders. Finally the battery employee realizes a public announcement has been made, and that it's missing some caveats. Word of the battery upgrade finally spreads to more than a handful of employees. Problems are realized - how fast can we build the batteries? How do we decide where to send them? How do we train the service center employees? And, oh no, they won't work with 1.5s.
9. The battery manager is elected to remind Musk that the batteries don't work with 1.5. Musk is a fast problem solver, and suggests a solution. This solution is being worked on now. But Musk only delivers good news. Saying "sorry, we goofed, 1.5s will have to wait and we don't know how long yet" is not good news. Customers complain, but Musk has always preferred silence until he can deliver good news. So we wait...
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My guess is that they had every intent to offer the upgrade to all Roadster models, but something hit late in the testing phase that affected only the 1.5s. Simple management decision (which I've seen and participated in far too often in Tech) is to look at the priority matrix. You have Schedule, Resources, and Scope, and only one can be the highest priority. With the CEO's promise of August (or so), Schedule can't move. Resources are, as noted, fixed or severely limited, so the only decision is to cut back on the scope and only offer it to the 2.0/2.5s. Simple. The problem was that the announcement was already moving forward, and either couldn't be changed (web programming already finalized), or the right communication was missed somewhere along the line and nobody pulled the big cord.
Now, what we need to know is whether the issue is fundamentally fatal, or just something that needs to be worked through. Given that the differences between the two car models isn't a matter of huge unknown risks, my strong belief (but based on zero inside knowledge) is that this simply needs some time to be worked through. The control programming on the 1.5 seems to be a bit more touchy (e.g. less flexibility on tire choice), so there was probably some corner case which needed to be worked out. I'd bet that, unless resources are pulled (unlikely, given the outcry), that we just need to be patient.
Now, what we need to know is whether the issue is fundamentally fatal, or just something that needs to be worked through. Given that the differences between the two car models isn't a matter of huge unknown risks, my strong belief (but based on zero inside knowledge) is that this simply needs some time to be worked through. The control programming on the 1.5 seems to be a bit more touchy (e.g. less flexibility on tire choice), so there was probably some corner case which needed to be worked out. I'd bet that, unless resources are pulled (unlikely, given the outcry), that we just need to be patient.
dhrivnak
Active Member
The reason I believe this is much bigger for Tesla than just satisfied 1.5 owners is I use my car a LOT to promote EV's. I have been to about 50 car shows with posters and handouts. I have coordinated 3 national plug-in day events. I have presented at local environmental conferences and civic clubs and virtually every time the #1 question is battery life and cost. Everyone has experience with dead batteries in cars, laptop and cell phones. Stories about $42k bricked Roadsters do not help. I show them the results of Tom Saxton ' s work on the plug-in America battery study which helps. But most people who have experience with 40+ year old cars that still run well. So for Tesla to succeed they also need to show cars have more than a 10 year life and that the batteries don't cost more than a new car.
This! ^ (I've done my part at car shows, organizing EV meetings, getting involved with local planning etc. too)
I'm in agreement with ChadS, pretty much up to number 7 in his story.
The announcement timing has come not because they were busy with the X (and therfore rushed), but it was deliberate to try and quell any battery fears for potential buyers of the new flag ship model.
Just like the battery swap stage show, I fear this is a PR stunt. In that case Elon DID give bad news, but only after he'd dragged it out long enough for the sales of the Model S to get in to full swing.
Fingers crossed I'm wrong, it has massive implications for all of us
TBH it might not matter as much in the $25k car space, where 10 yrs usable life is acceptable, so for model 3 it's not such a problem. It just signifies the point when the car becomes a disposable item like an iPad (Elon probably knows this too, it's a fantastic business model!)
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ChadS
Last tank of gas: March 2009
My story above likely just projected my experiences with a CEO that seemed to have some very similar attributes. There are other plausible explanations, like gregd and smac offered.
While I don't think the Roadster is likely to get much attention once the Model 3 is out, I do think that for now Tesla still sees a small amount of value in using it for a halo and keeping the owners happy. Dhrivnak points out why a 1.5 solution is important, and because of that I think (though I can't prove) BartJ will get his happy ending. We just won't hear anything until it's ready (or they are at least sure it can be made ready). They've done this before; for example, with the CHAdeMO adapter - that was delayed so long there were rumors it had been completely dropped. They always intended to do it; it just got moved down the priority list for things like European adapters, and they refused to say anything until they had some certainty about it.
While my story was completely imaginary and may be wrong in several respects, I was trying to illustrate these points that I believe to be true from past experience with Tesla:
1. There is a real communications fubar here. But it's not because Tesla hires stupid people for the communications department, or that they don't care about their jobs. It's because of Musk's combination of tight control over a large level of detail, long delays then very sudden (and in public, before discussion at work) decisions on matters other than the top priorities, and desire to only deliver good news. Any one of these traits may not be so bad, or even good in some respects. But when they are all packaged together, you get repeated issues like we've seen with Tesla where none of the employees know what's going on, clarification takes an eternity, and the eventual news is good, but not as good as originally promised (which means expectations are not met and people are disappointed even though the company delivered something good).
2. Tesla in general, and Musk in particular, are unbelievably swamped with important work. As important as replacement packs are to us, they are definitely not one of the high priorities at Tesla. While I personally find that disappointing, if I was to put on a shareholder hat (I am not a shareholder) I would probably agree that they should do some sort of minimum to get by on this. Not the absolute minimum; keeping early adopters happy is important. But they should not spend a lot of engineering time on this.
3. Musk tries to make everything he does do double-duty, especially since he's trying to spend as little as possible on marketing. A cheaper and/or lighter pack would have been GREAT for us owners - but would likely not have gotten in to the news cycle to help improve perceptions of EVs. The range improvement did get in to the news cycle; of course then the high price gets noticed, but at least it's in the news, and most consumers don't care that we Roadster guys have to pay a lot; we have more money than brains and are just trying to show off so we deserve it, right?
I am, in many ways, in awe of Musk. He is very smart, incredibly hard-working, and I believe he is really motivated to do good. Most importantly, he gets stuff done despite great personal cost. However, he has communications issues that drive me nuts (I think it's him responsible, rather than his employees), and I don't think the culture he fosters is in the company's own best long-term interests. I think he's excellent at raising money and starting companies, but could probably do better if he delegated more when running a big one. I don't think Tesla would have gotten as far as it has without him; but at this point I think he is also the cause of a lot of the problems they have. Mind you, they are still in high-gear on growth, so on balance he is likely still be the best person to run the company. We just have to take the bad with the good. We can't control what Tesla does; but if we know what to expect, maybe we can feel more at peace with it. :smile:
Here is an attempt to tie it all up and get it back on topic: I think (though it is just a guess) that Tesla is working on a solution for 1.5 Roadsters, but we may not hear about it for a long time. And we should brace ourselves for the possibility that since it may be required to work around an additional problem, it may have an additional compromise. It may cost more than the 2.x pack, or have less range, or something like that. Though perhaps (I hope!) the only compromise will be that it takes longer to arrive.
While I don't think the Roadster is likely to get much attention once the Model 3 is out, I do think that for now Tesla still sees a small amount of value in using it for a halo and keeping the owners happy. Dhrivnak points out why a 1.5 solution is important, and because of that I think (though I can't prove) BartJ will get his happy ending. We just won't hear anything until it's ready (or they are at least sure it can be made ready). They've done this before; for example, with the CHAdeMO adapter - that was delayed so long there were rumors it had been completely dropped. They always intended to do it; it just got moved down the priority list for things like European adapters, and they refused to say anything until they had some certainty about it.
While my story was completely imaginary and may be wrong in several respects, I was trying to illustrate these points that I believe to be true from past experience with Tesla:
1. There is a real communications fubar here. But it's not because Tesla hires stupid people for the communications department, or that they don't care about their jobs. It's because of Musk's combination of tight control over a large level of detail, long delays then very sudden (and in public, before discussion at work) decisions on matters other than the top priorities, and desire to only deliver good news. Any one of these traits may not be so bad, or even good in some respects. But when they are all packaged together, you get repeated issues like we've seen with Tesla where none of the employees know what's going on, clarification takes an eternity, and the eventual news is good, but not as good as originally promised (which means expectations are not met and people are disappointed even though the company delivered something good).
2. Tesla in general, and Musk in particular, are unbelievably swamped with important work. As important as replacement packs are to us, they are definitely not one of the high priorities at Tesla. While I personally find that disappointing, if I was to put on a shareholder hat (I am not a shareholder) I would probably agree that they should do some sort of minimum to get by on this. Not the absolute minimum; keeping early adopters happy is important. But they should not spend a lot of engineering time on this.
3. Musk tries to make everything he does do double-duty, especially since he's trying to spend as little as possible on marketing. A cheaper and/or lighter pack would have been GREAT for us owners - but would likely not have gotten in to the news cycle to help improve perceptions of EVs. The range improvement did get in to the news cycle; of course then the high price gets noticed, but at least it's in the news, and most consumers don't care that we Roadster guys have to pay a lot; we have more money than brains and are just trying to show off so we deserve it, right?
I am, in many ways, in awe of Musk. He is very smart, incredibly hard-working, and I believe he is really motivated to do good. Most importantly, he gets stuff done despite great personal cost. However, he has communications issues that drive me nuts (I think it's him responsible, rather than his employees), and I don't think the culture he fosters is in the company's own best long-term interests. I think he's excellent at raising money and starting companies, but could probably do better if he delegated more when running a big one. I don't think Tesla would have gotten as far as it has without him; but at this point I think he is also the cause of a lot of the problems they have. Mind you, they are still in high-gear on growth, so on balance he is likely still be the best person to run the company. We just have to take the bad with the good. We can't control what Tesla does; but if we know what to expect, maybe we can feel more at peace with it. :smile:
Here is an attempt to tie it all up and get it back on topic: I think (though it is just a guess) that Tesla is working on a solution for 1.5 Roadsters, but we may not hear about it for a long time. And we should brace ourselves for the possibility that since it may be required to work around an additional problem, it may have an additional compromise. It may cost more than the 2.x pack, or have less range, or something like that. Though perhaps (I hope!) the only compromise will be that it takes longer to arrive.
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ecarfan
Well-Known Member
Chad thanks for your very entertaining -- and possibly quite insightful -- story about 3.0 battery development, and your follow up post. As a 1.5 owner, to my surprise I feel a bit better. I'll give Tesla another year and hope for good news by then.
Sparrow
S105/ Roadster 189
My rational side says for me to get rid of my 1.5. I do not need it since I have a Model S to drive anyways and the battery sensor repair of $6000 (replace the battery pack with a like capacity pack) seems alot for a car that is not driven that much. Then I take it out for a spin and think I really should keep it because it is more fun than the S by a long shot. If I keep it, I will limp along with my red Fault light and VDS message saying the battery needs service for as long as the car will drive. I will hold off on the adjustable suspension I wanted to add until I know I can buy a brand new pack. I just go back and forth between the two ideas.
WarpedOne
Supreme Premier
As long as company is alive, it has legal obligation to respect contratcs.
Tesla Motors sold 'roadster battery replacement' or what was it called, to 1.5 owners.
They cannot just walk away without delivering the goods or returning money with interest when due time arrives.
Returning money with interest would start huge PR shitstorm, that would damage the company for real, more than those f*res every could.
So, 1.5 owners, just sit back and enjoy life. It will continue to be good.
Or it will turn bad for many many many more people than just 1.5 owners.
Tesla Motors sold 'roadster battery replacement' or what was it called, to 1.5 owners.
They cannot just walk away without delivering the goods or returning money with interest when due time arrives.
Returning money with interest would start huge PR shitstorm, that would damage the company for real, more than those f*res every could.
So, 1.5 owners, just sit back and enjoy life. It will continue to be good.
Or it will turn bad for many many many more people than just 1.5 owners.
Very happy to hear that this is not an offer for a limited time.
anyone else that received a similar call ?
it can not be that Bradley is only owner that they have contacted....
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