Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Roadster Foundry mobile charging kit

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
#21
I have asked Jorg if he can comment here since he has both.

My limited understanding gives me the opinion that the Tango was designed to be more "techy" and almost home-brew compared to the Tesla. I think Tesla was trying harder to make something completely user friendly and adhering to all possible interpretations of various safety codes. Perhaps an admirable goal, but ultimately not the most flexible.

I think there may have been some issues with the Tango Avcon system, but we need a Tango owner to chime in with details.

(By the way, it really should be "CommuterCars / Tesla" or "Tango / Roadster", but it ends up being a lot easier to just say "Tango / Tesla" using the shortest most similar words.)
 
#22
Over on the Tesla Owner's forum this was posted:


I've completed my analysis of the MC240 charger.

From what I've been able to measure on the MC240 charger, the portable chargers seem to be following IEC 309-2. Here's a link to the Specs:

MC120 style dumb charger (no pilot)
http://www.ecs-five.ch/parkcharge/documents/BOXINFOE.pdf
The only difference is that the MC120 shorts the pilot pin to ground when the twistlock is engaged.

MC240 max current style charger (PWM pilot)
http://www.ecs-five.ch/parkcharge/documents/BOXSPECE.pdf
The only difference is that the MC240 uses +12V during the "I" state rather than -12V

Using this design, one could signal charging currents up to 48A.

It is unclear to me how they signal charging currents above 50A in the HPC (e.g. 70A) as I do not own a HPC. But ACpropulsion authored a document describing a "Level 2+" charger that could signal up to 400A. The HPC may be based on that. If it is, the MC240 cannot signal higher currents than 48A because it does not have the circuits to generate the -9V pilot signal.
http://www.geocities.com/evcharging/images/level2plus.pdf
Click to expand...
 
#25
For the MC240, if you removed the GFCI, and if you changed the circuit to ask for 40amps then it might work, but then you have to wonder if the wire gauge is up to the task.

Also, back to the whole discussion about various NEMA 14-50 sockets, you are back to the job of having to check out every socket to see if it really can deliver that many amps safely.

By the way, the Roadster foundry kit has thermal sensors in the plugs to reduce load if the plug/socket starts to overheat. I don't know if the MC240 does that.
 
#26
#27
I think, in theory at least, that it would be possible to make a cable that had a NEMA 14-60 plug on the end:
Cooper_Wiring_Devices_Nema_14-60_9460N.jpg

and the control box programmed to tell the Roadster that up to 48 amps was OK. If you had a 60 amp breaker, suitable wire (#4 AL / #6 CU) and reprogrammed the box to tell the Roadster 48 amps was OK it could possibly work.
I think that might be the max it could conceivably handle though. I think it might need a different kind of pilot signal to go above 48 amps. NEMA 14-60 seems to be about the highest current pseudo-consumer plug I can find. 80% of 60 amps is 48. I gather this wasn't included because those 4-60 sockets are rather uncommon. NEMA 14-50 got picked because so many campgrounds have them for RVs and at least some houses have them for Ranges / Stoves.
 
#28
@vfx

there are pictures from the inside of the "foundry-mobile-charging-kit" available ?

Any ideas how to modify the charger to control it from extern ?

1. prevent switch from State B (Ready) to C/D (charging)
2. select current from just "Top off" to "fast charge please"
 
#29
EV,

Sorry, I don't know of any interior pictures of Martin's Foundry connector. Remember, it's simply a connector, not a charger. The charger is in the car.

Again, I don't own one and really don't know about it's workings.

Maybe Martin or someone who bought one can help you with your queries.
 
#30
I don't think the box has the capability to do what EV_de wants.
It basically does the following:

#1: Detect what type of plug/cable you have connected to the box.
#2: Tell the Roadster what max amps to use based on #1

It probably has a little circuit board inside and some kind of simple micro-controller to do this. The manual said something about flashing the LEDs in some sequence to read out the firmware version programmed into the controller.

Regarding #1 above, it doesn't actually sense anything about the power/current. It just can tell what physical cable is plugged in, but knows nothing of the circuit breakers, GFCIs, other loads, or anything about the actual available power. It assumes if you use a certain plug then there is likely a certain amount of amps available.
 
#31
I think this is a great idea beyond even just this charger. There's nothing to stop M.E. from making a company that tunes Teslas and provides aftermarket parts. Who better than someone who helped design it?

I've always been of the opinion that a car line is only as good as the support for it. The more options I have, the better. I say go full steam Martin
 
#33
I had assumed that it was only possible to change the charge profile (e.g.: "Range mode", "Standard Mode", etc.) from the VDS, not from some sort of comm channel from the charging cable.

I think there is a simple, old J1772 style signal that just tells how much power should be available. If there is a way to have a more complex conversation with the Roadster, I don't know anything about it.
 
#34
Right, that's more a monologue from the charger or charging cable to the internal Charger.

since the "charger" is onboard, a wall-mounted "charger" is basicly a wall-outlet
with this J1772 CPL Signal.

I do have a wall-outlet, all other part are included in the "foundry-mobile-charging-kit"
 
#35
The Roadster Foundry terminology I use is:


  • Electrical Grid ->
  • Meter ->
  • Service Panel ->
  • Outlet ->
  • Socket -> (e.g. NEMA 14-50 in USA)
  • Wall Plug->
  • Logic Box-> (detects the wall plug type and generates an ampacity signal to Roadster)
  • Charge cable->
  • Roadster Plug->
  • Roadster socket->
  • Charger (in the Roadster)

The VDS lets you tell the charger what to do. The charger apparently takes into consideration the "available ampacity" as signaled by the logic box and generally treats it as a "do not exceed" value. (Can draw up to that amount).

For the HPC it is more like:


  • Electrical Grid ->
  • Meter ->
  • Service Panel ->
  • HPC ->
  • Charge cable->
  • Roadster plug->
  • Roadster socket->
  • Charger (in the Roadster)

The HPC apparently has the logic inside to generate the correct pilot signal.
The early version of the HPC had some sort of screwdriver adjustment that lets you manually specify the suggested ampacity. As far as I know, the Roadster Foundry mobile box has no such "user adjustment". It is basically "hard coded" to only advertise a few discrete ampacity levels based on the type of wall plug connected to the logic box.

EV_de used one acrronymn I didn't recognize: "CPL".
A Google search turned up this document which apparently shows a way (on page 15) to have a modem send a carrier over the ground pin to let the vehicle data bus talk to some equipment over on the other side of the charge cable.

I have no idea if Roadster has any such "modem carrier" on the ground pin that could be used to do more advanced communication from offboard charge controlling equipment. I suppose, in theory, it is possible.


By the way, take my terminology and guesses at the technology with a "grain of salt". I ponder this technology as a hobby. I don't work in this industry. I could have some details wrong.
 
#36
The intermediate connector for the Martin Eberhard system is the "California Standard (rated for 50 amperes)" Both Hubbel and Marinco make them; the marine-intent Marinco ones are recommended because they seem more weather resistant and are the ones that Martin uses. A source for an extension cord to extend the distance to the receptacle (like reaching a dryer receptacle in the house) already made up with the Marinco connectors is Coleman 50' SEOW Cord (California Standard Ends) at Arizona Tools These may seem expensive, but remember that there is a lot of copper in them.
 
#37
TEG said:
I have asked Jorg if he can comment here since he has both.

My limited understanding gives me the opinion that the Tango was designed to be more "techy" and almost home-brew compared to the Tesla. I think Tesla was trying harder to make something completely user friendly and adhering to all possible interpretations of various safety codes. Perhaps an admirable goal, but ultimately not the most flexible.

I think there may have been some issues with the Tango Avcon system, but we need a Tango owner to chime in with details.
Click to expand...

The AvCon system was designed before CommuterCars existed as a company. It's sold by, surprise, AvCon. Avcon Corporation The Tango comes with an AvCon plug so it can use all the pre-existing charge plugs. Tesla didn't go with AvCon since it maxes out at around 30A, meaning a full-charge-from-empty would take 7 hours. The downside is evident, however: no Tesla charging stations.

In addition to AvCon chargers, you can put a number of very simple cables into the Tango's AvCon port, which allow you to charge at up to 220V, 40A. These come with the Tango, and you can order extras for $300. (I have 3 - one at work, one at home, and one in the car)

Unlike the Tesla, the Tango has a simple knob in the back, that you turn to whatever current you want. So all this automatic-sensing nonsense doesn't apply. On the downside, the Tango is good at blowing fuses and tripping GFCI if you forget to set the current.
 
#40
Technically speaking the Avcon was J1772. Just the old J1772-1996 standard.
The new connector is supposed to be part of J1772-2009.

We need a name for the new connector. For now I think it is made by Yazaki, but perhaps there will be other manufacturers soon?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

B
  • Question
Recently installed Nema 14-50 at home. Only charging 5 amps on 240v. How do i make it charge more?
Replies
16
Views
1K
Model 3: Battery & Charging
mapa1214
M
U
Mobile charger not pulling Amps - 0/0A but showing 240V
Replies
3
Views
319
Bug & Issue Reporting
azdryheat
azdryheat
F
NEMA 10-30R on a 20A Breaker?
Replies
19
Views
529
Model 3: Battery & Charging
Tronguy
Tronguy
S
San Francisco Off Street Charging
Replies
7
Views
195
California
Sunnyside
S
tps5352
Original Roadster 240v 30a Mobile Connector -- Model and Part Numbers for NA Version?
Replies
6
Views
819
Roadster 2008-2012
tps5352
tps5352
Top
Back
Blog
New
Forum list
Marketplace
Menu