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I wouldn't advise replacing the capacitors with those TDK capacitors for the following reasons.
They list typical ESR, not maximum ESR. Also if you look at ripple current, it's 2.79A at 100Hz and 105oC which is only slightly better than 2.47A of original. What they are certainly good at is creativity at making datasheet to put numbers which look impressive (if you don't look at conditions). And by looking at 240 mOhm Zmax @ 10 kHz (which is the only maximum figure), maximum ESR (which is majority of Z) is actually worse.
The best capacitors for replacement of the original Panasonics are these CDE Capacitors, they also have identical specifications in all conditions.. 381LR471M450A052 Cornell Dubilier Electronics (CDE) | Capacitors | DigiKey
They list typical ESR, not maximum ESR. Also if you look at ripple current, it's 2.79A at 100Hz and 105oC which is only slightly better than 2.47A of original. What they are certainly good at is creativity at making datasheet to put numbers which look impressive (if you don't look at conditions). And by looking at 240 mOhm Zmax @ 10 kHz (which is the only maximum figure), maximum ESR (which is majority of Z) is actually worse.
The best capacitors for replacement of the original Panasonics are these CDE Capacitors, they also have identical specifications in all conditions.. 381LR471M450A052 Cornell Dubilier Electronics (CDE) | Capacitors | DigiKey
Hi Hallvardr!
Where in Norway are you located?
Hi Hallvardr!
I have a Roadster where the PEM has failed for the second time in two years.
My car has been in the Tesla workshop for 4 months now. I am considering to try to fix it myself after having read your story here. Do you have time for a little talk on the phone? You can call or send me a message at 913 02934.
Ronald
I have a Roadster where the PEM has failed for the second time in two years.
My car has been in the Tesla workshop for 4 months now. I am considering to try to fix it myself after having read your story here. Do you have time for a little talk on the phone? You can call or send me a message at 913 02934.
Ronald
Hei Hallvard!
jeg fikk en e-post fra en i Tyskland som tilbød å reparere PEM'en min. Ellers har jeg ikke hørt fra noen.
Takk Hallvard!
Fikk telefon fra han fredag.
Siste nytt fra meg: Bilen min har stått inne hos Tesla i mer enn 5 måneder. Torsdag i forrige uke ringte de og sa at nå var bilen min fiksa. De hadde kjørt en ny diagnose og funnet ut at det ikke var feil på PEM allikevel. Det var bare feil i en kabel og dessuten var 12V batteriet defekt. Dette hadde de fiksa helt gratis
I utgangspunktet skulle de ha 117 000 for å bytte PEM.
Fikk telefon fra han fredag.
Siste nytt fra meg: Bilen min har stått inne hos Tesla i mer enn 5 måneder. Torsdag i forrige uke ringte de og sa at nå var bilen min fiksa. De hadde kjørt en ny diagnose og funnet ut at det ikke var feil på PEM allikevel. Det var bare feil i en kabel og dessuten var 12V batteriet defekt. Dette hadde de fiksa helt gratis
I utgangspunktet skulle de ha 117 000 for å bytte PEM.
Takk Hallvard!
Fikk telefon fra han fredag.
Siste nytt fra meg: Bilen min har stått inne hos Tesla i mer enn 5 måneder. Torsdag i forrige uke ringte de og sa at nå var bilen min fiksa. De hadde kjørt en ny diagnose og funnet ut at det ikke var feil på PEM allikevel. Det var bare feil i en kabel og dessuten var 12V batteriet defekt. Dette hadde de fiksa helt gratis
Google Translate
:Latest news from me: My car has been with Tesla for more than 5 months. On Thursday last week they called and said that now my car was fixed. They had run a new diagnosis and found that there was no fault with PEM anyway. There was only one cable malfunction and besides, the 12V battery was defective. They had this fixed completely free of charge Initially they would have 117,000 to switch PEM.
Google Translate
Latest news from me: My car has been with Tesla for more than 5 months. On Thursday last week they called and said that now my car was fixed. They had run a new diagnosis and found that there was no fault with PEM anyway. There was only one cable malfunction and besides, the 12V battery was defective. They had this fixed completely free of charge Initially they would have 117,000 to switch PEM.
It's just insane that they have had it this long without being able to see that until now!! Too bad we live so far from Carl Medlock.
Well at least it's working now.
I may have joined the club. Yesterday I plugged my roadster (2.5S) to the TS-70 after a short trip in town and left it for a few hours. Then I noticed that all lights were out on the charger and that the circuit breaker had cut the power. I unplugged and checked the VDS to find the message Powertrain Problem Restart When Safe (ID 905). Trying to charge with a mobile charger instead, I initially got blue light on the charge port, then the red light. This repeated automatically several times until I unplugged. The same message appeared again on the VDS.
Pulling, parsing and analyzing the logs, these were the first error messages of the day while the car was connected to the TS-70:
time error code Debug message according to Gruber newsletter
14:37:02 905 DMC HW: PhaseA Low Side Desat Fault
14:37:11 1141 [DMC WARNING Pole Power] [DMC FW: Pole Power]
14:37:11 1061 DMC FW: Line OverCurrent warning
14:37:11 1148 [DMC WARNING IA OverCurrent in Charge] [DMC WARNING 120]
14:37:11 1149 [DMC WARNING IB OverCurrent in Charge] [DMC WARNING 121]
14:37:11 933 DMC FW: Line OverCurrent fault
The following errors occured repeatedly and must be from the attempt to use the mobile charger:
time error code Debug message according to Gruber newsletter
18:32:45 905 DMC HW: PhaseA Low Side Desat Fault
18:32:47 1141 [DMC WARNING Pole Power] [DMC FW: Pole Power]
18:32:47 1061 DMC FW: Line OverCurrent warning
There is no fault light and the VDS message is gone after I dismissed it. I don't know if the car drives. Having read (all of) this thread leads me to believe that this might be the IGBT-insulation issue. In particular the ID-905 message suggests that, I believe. I therefore question if it is at all wise to try to drive the car.
Does anyone have suggestions for alternative explanations? It would be nice to check out the easier alternatives first. One could hope for a cable issue as it turned out for @ronalds in post #410 above...
Do I risk much if I try to drive the car? I have images in my head of fireworks and smoke erupting out the PEM as I try to back out of my garage ...
Pulling, parsing and analyzing the logs, these were the first error messages of the day while the car was connected to the TS-70:
time error code Debug message according to Gruber newsletter
14:37:02 905 DMC HW: PhaseA Low Side Desat Fault
14:37:11 1141 [DMC WARNING Pole Power] [DMC FW: Pole Power]
14:37:11 1061 DMC FW: Line OverCurrent warning
14:37:11 1148 [DMC WARNING IA OverCurrent in Charge] [DMC WARNING 120]
14:37:11 1149 [DMC WARNING IB OverCurrent in Charge] [DMC WARNING 121]
14:37:11 933 DMC FW: Line OverCurrent fault
The following errors occured repeatedly and must be from the attempt to use the mobile charger:
time error code Debug message according to Gruber newsletter
18:32:45 905 DMC HW: PhaseA Low Side Desat Fault
18:32:47 1141 [DMC WARNING Pole Power] [DMC FW: Pole Power]
18:32:47 1061 DMC FW: Line OverCurrent warning
There is no fault light and the VDS message is gone after I dismissed it. I don't know if the car drives. Having read (all of) this thread leads me to believe that this might be the IGBT-insulation issue. In particular the ID-905 message suggests that, I believe. I therefore question if it is at all wise to try to drive the car.
Does anyone have suggestions for alternative explanations? It would be nice to check out the easier alternatives first. One could hope for a cable issue as it turned out for @ronalds in post #410 above...
Do I risk much if I try to drive the car? I have images in my head of fireworks and smoke erupting out the PEM as I try to back out of my garage ...
thefortunes
Active Member
Sure sounds like your first board (Phase A) has an isolation error (likely caused by deterioration of the insulation).
I would NOT drive it as, if it actually were to drive, the next isolation error is likely to take out more components (IGBTs, capacitors, etc...). You won't cause a fire, but you will add to the work needed to get it back on the road.
If you are comfortable doing it, this thread on replacing the insulation is pretty good (I believe I added some tips when I did mine). It does take some time and you want to be VERY organized the first time you take it apart so you can get everything back together properly.
Unfortunately I don't know what your options are in Norway regarding 3rd party help (like Gruber or Carl Medlock).
Good luck.
I would NOT drive it as, if it actually were to drive, the next isolation error is likely to take out more components (IGBTs, capacitors, etc...). You won't cause a fire, but you will add to the work needed to get it back on the road.
If you are comfortable doing it, this thread on replacing the insulation is pretty good (I believe I added some tips when I did mine). It does take some time and you want to be VERY organized the first time you take it apart so you can get everything back together properly.
Unfortunately I don't know what your options are in Norway regarding 3rd party help (like Gruber or Carl Medlock).
Good luck.
A good thing to check first, just because it is easy to do, would be the big line input fuses under the small access panel on the PEM on the right-hand end where the line wires enter the PEM. You're probably right that the fault codes indicate a more serious problem, but it wouldn't hurt to check the fuses, especially since there was a breaker trip as well.
Conrad Buck in Germany has rebuilt a lot of PEMs. He might be a long way from Norway but he knows what he’s doing. @warden_clyffe
I’m not affiliated and get no commission.
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DanielFriederich
Member
Preserving battery charge is the main thing when it comes to charging / PEM errors. So don't drive. If you put it into drive and it works (short test) I would go for the fuses in the little compartment of the PEM. If it stays red and produces the errors again it quit likely indicates an IGBT isolation error which is not a big deal until it makes "BAM" and one or more of those transistors is blown into eternity... Conrad Buck would be able to overhaul the isolation of the PEM. There's is also GS Technology nearby Stuttgart and Switzerland. And as far as I remember there's also a norwegian guy able of doing that (can't remember his name). You might check the Tesla Roadster Owners facebook group since for sure he's active there.
From my error code list:
905 DMC DMC HW: PhaseA Low Side Desat Fault Red Fault 1 Phase Short to Shield or Ground Perform motor/cable test - uohm/high pot, pass? perform repairs - check shield fuses and motor cable connector at PEM side
905 DMC DMC HW: PhaseA Low Side Desat Fault Red Fault 2 Motor - Internal Short uOhm meter/high Pot - See separate procedure, check for break down between B+ and B-. Indication is lost of drive and/or isolation test failure. If isolation failure possible blown shield fuses in PEM indiction by vehicle not charging.
905 DMC DMC HW: PhaseA Low Side Desat Fault Red Fault 3 PEM - Internal Short Unplug ESS connector and check resistance at ESS inlet high voltage - PEM side. Should be 120ohms. See separate procedure. If DESAT is present, more likely to be PEM internal short. Indication is failure to precharge.
905 DMC DMC HW: PhaseA Low Side Desat Fault Red Fault 4 Motor Failure - Mechanical Touchdown Put on rack and try to spin the wheels. Indication - burning smell from motor.
905 DMC DMC HW: PhaseA Low Side Desat Fault Red Fault 5 Motor Encoder/Cable - Open/Short Roll car around shop. Observe motor RPM CAN messages and compare to wheel speed messages. Indication - Intermittent loss of drive.
905 DMC DMC HW: PhaseA Low Side Desat Fault Red Fault 6 PEM - Internal Failure Look at CAN messages for motor currents at idle - should be < 5amps; check battery voltage reported by PEM when contactors are closed - make sure agrees with BSM
933 DMC DMC FW: Line OverCurrent fault None 1 PEM - Internal Failure Replace PEM
1061 DMC DMC FW: Line OverCurrent warning None 1 PEM - Internal Failure Replace PEM
1061 DMC DMC FW: Line OverCurrent warning None 2 Motor Failure Put on rack and try to spin the wheels. Indication - burning smell from motor.
1061 DMC DMC FW: Line OverCurrent warning None 3 Motor Encoder/Cable - Open/Short Roll car around shop. Observe motor RPM CAN messages and compare to wheel speed messages. Indication - Intermittent loss of drive.
From my error code list:
905 DMC DMC HW: PhaseA Low Side Desat Fault Red Fault 1 Phase Short to Shield or Ground Perform motor/cable test - uohm/high pot, pass? perform repairs - check shield fuses and motor cable connector at PEM side
905 DMC DMC HW: PhaseA Low Side Desat Fault Red Fault 2 Motor - Internal Short uOhm meter/high Pot - See separate procedure, check for break down between B+ and B-. Indication is lost of drive and/or isolation test failure. If isolation failure possible blown shield fuses in PEM indiction by vehicle not charging.
905 DMC DMC HW: PhaseA Low Side Desat Fault Red Fault 3 PEM - Internal Short Unplug ESS connector and check resistance at ESS inlet high voltage - PEM side. Should be 120ohms. See separate procedure. If DESAT is present, more likely to be PEM internal short. Indication is failure to precharge.
905 DMC DMC HW: PhaseA Low Side Desat Fault Red Fault 4 Motor Failure - Mechanical Touchdown Put on rack and try to spin the wheels. Indication - burning smell from motor.
905 DMC DMC HW: PhaseA Low Side Desat Fault Red Fault 5 Motor Encoder/Cable - Open/Short Roll car around shop. Observe motor RPM CAN messages and compare to wheel speed messages. Indication - Intermittent loss of drive.
905 DMC DMC HW: PhaseA Low Side Desat Fault Red Fault 6 PEM - Internal Failure Look at CAN messages for motor currents at idle - should be < 5amps; check battery voltage reported by PEM when contactors are closed - make sure agrees with BSM
933 DMC DMC FW: Line OverCurrent fault None 1 PEM - Internal Failure Replace PEM
1061 DMC DMC FW: Line OverCurrent warning None 1 PEM - Internal Failure Replace PEM
1061 DMC DMC FW: Line OverCurrent warning None 2 Motor Failure Put on rack and try to spin the wheels. Indication - burning smell from motor.
1061 DMC DMC FW: Line OverCurrent warning None 3 Motor Encoder/Cable - Open/Short Roll car around shop. Observe motor RPM CAN messages and compare to wheel speed messages. Indication - Intermittent loss of drive.
warden_clyffe
Member
...yes, you joined the club (unfortunately), but this is not only failed insulations, you have most probably at least a handfull off blown igbt's, maybe plus a blown driver-board.
if you're clever, you do not power up your car anymore, please please do not try to reset it and try again, you might damage the ESS !
inhibit the APS, pull the service-disconnect (and the fuse for the 12V AUX-battery), take the PEM out and have it checked befor powering up your car again with it, because if you do so you might blow a fuse in your ESS, wich will make a battery-pull necessary...
Thanks for the information and the warning (which I will heed). I will pull the service disconnect tomorrow, and do the simple fuse checks that @slcasner and @DanielFriederich suggested above. I notified Tesla and am awaiting response from them. Unless they come up with a better alternative the next few days, I will probably take the PEM out this weekend.
Has anybody reverse engineered these PEMs sufficiently to obtain circuit diagrams?
Mine is a 2.5 Sport with TPN 0600276800 rev. AE; SAP 6005203
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