Roadster Sport will not stay in Performance Mode

[wiztecy]

The 2.x PEMs also have significantly better cooling than the 1.5 PEMs when everything is clean. That's a big "if" because the 2.x Roadsters have an issue with the PEM fans getting dirty but if you stay on top of that they do a good job for aggressive street driving.

True, they do cool down better/quicker. When I drove a 2.0 with the blower upgrade I was amazed how fast the temps go down. But what good does fast cooling do you if you always have to be keeping the darn thing clean every 6 months to make it work as it should? Even though the 1.5 would run hotter and not cool down as fast as the 2.x PEM, it is way more consistent for cooling (my PEM temps are still where they were when I cleaned it 2+ years ago) and offers less maintenance time/cleaning-wise pulling the PEM off and cleaning it, unless you install a filter system like you did on your 2.5. Granted if you lived on a dirt road with leaves and such all over, especially pine needles, You'd most likely would be pulling the PEM off the 1.5 to clean out the electric motor cooling fins, a task that Tesla barely touches during the annual. They never cleaned mine in any of the 2 annuals that were performed there. They only clean that area if they see any indications of an issue, such as higher motor temps. But then how long do they test drive these cars, not far or long.... So I don't think they'd catch an issue there with cleaning unless the customer complained. But that's an issue for all versions.

Also I recall the small connectors, I believe two or three pin, melting on the 2.x PEMS and that connector and was found these connectors have a limited on/off duty before the coating / metal on the contacts begin break down which then appears to be increasing resistance there which then heats up and melts the connector. I do know that the 1.5 has the aircraft quality connectors (aluminum twist offs) on the PEM, I believe 3 areas. Not sure but I believe that connector was one of the three aluminum connectors on the Roadster. The 1.5 does have one or two regular plastic snap connectors as well on the PEM. I did/do love these connectors when I need to remove that PEM that's for sure, quite a snap and they back off smooth and easy. I also believe these connectors are gentler on the metal to metal contact areas of the connection.

In Tom Saxton's survey sorted by PEM swaps I see more 2.x's that had the PEM replaced via the build year.
TEG is better with the concrete answer, but I believe when the 2.0's were being built was around the end of April/May of 2009 so there will be a mix of both versions for these months... so that's not good data since we can't identify the versions with 100% certainty. But keep in mind with this sample as I mentioned before that there's close to 5x as many 2.x's on the road compared to the 1.5's, so data points will naturally be skewed towards the 2.x side of things. Only Tesla has the true data that has real meaning, we can infer from our data but subject to errors due to sampling.

Battery Survey « Plug In America

Am I reading this wrong or did you look at some other survey?

Also note that some samples of the PEM being replaced was not the PEM that created an issue, some battery failures can and have blown out the PEM or something as simple as the fuse in the PEM which isn't the PEMs fault at all.

 

[John W. Ratcliff]

Ok, I finally got an answer. This whole thing has nothing to do with the PEM, cooling system, or sensors.

The software has a *counter* which records how frequently you are doing hard launches. If that counter is too high, it will simply refuse to go into performance mode. My Tesla service guy quotes this specific statement from the Tesla Roadster owners manual:

"Performance

This setting is available for those rare times in which you want to achieve maximum power and hence, minimize the time it takes to accelerate from 0-60 mph (0-100 kmh). Use this setting with caution because it allows the Battery to run at a higher temperature—which reduces the life of the cells within the Battery.
Frequent use of this setting is strongly discouraged."

This is from section 5-4 of the Tesla Roadster owners manual.

Of course, I had not read this before. I just assumed that I pretty much always wanted to have the car in performance mode because it's a sports car, so when would I not want that?

I pretty much always launch 0-60 hard in my car because, well, that's what I paid for. So, the news from Tesla, and the owners manual, is don't use 'performance mode' at all unless, on some rare occasion (say a drag race at the track) you want to get the best launch time.

Apparently, 'performance mode' is governed and supposed to be rarely used and typically just when you are trying to do a 'rare' launch.

 

[slcasner]

The only way that the 1.5 PEM is "built like a tank" is that it's heavier than the 2.x PEM. It is not more reliable.

Well, the 1.5 PEM does use expensive military-type connectors for its cables going in and out; these were replaced with cheaper alternatives for the 2.x PEM. I don't know whether the 1.5 PEM uses the same Molex connector for the fan that has burned up on the 2.x PEMs of several of the members here.

 

[supersnoop]

The software has a *counter* which records how frequently you are doing hard launches. If that counter is too high, it will simply refuse to go into performance mode.

That sounds like a load of BS to me.

 

[djp]

My Tesla service guy quotes this specific statement from the Tesla Roadster owners manual:

"Performance

This setting is available for those rare times in which you want to achieve maximum power and hence, minimize the time it takes to accelerate from 0-60 mph (0-100 kmh). Use this setting with caution because it allows the Battery to run at a higher temperature—which reduces the life of the cells within the Battery.
Frequent use of this setting is strongly discouraged."

This is from section 5-4 of the Tesla Roadster owners manual.

That section of the manual describes the Performance charging mode, not the Performance driving mode.

A Performance charge is similar to a Range charge in that it charges the battery to 95%. Unlike a Range charge, a Performance charge doesn't chill the battery as it approaches 95%. The higher temperature while charging does reduce the life of the cells and should be used infrequently.

The Performance driving mode is completely different. It allows a higher power output from the PEM and changes the torque response curve for the accelerator pedal. There is no difference in battery temperature between standard driving mode and performance driving mode. Both will actively cool the battery when it reaches 41C.

I also call BS on the hard launch "counter". I always leave my car in the Performance driving mode and have never seen problems with the PEM overheating. The only time I see Performance drop to red is when driving hard on a hot summer day, when the ambient temperature is above 30C. Even then it comes back to white fairly quickly.

 

[jerry505]

I wasn't aware of performance charging. I wonder if this applies to Model S, too. I've read on the Model S forum that Supercharging a high percentage decreases battery life.

 

[hcsharp]

Ok, I finally got an answer. This whole thing has nothing to do with the PEM, cooling system, or sensors.

The software has a *counter* which records how frequently you are doing hard launches. If that counter is too high, it will simply refuse to go into performance mode. My Tesla service guy quotes this specific statement from the Tesla Roadster owners manual:

"Performance

More rubbish from your incompetent service tech. There is no "counter" that limits your driving after you meet your quota. jeez. I know Roadster owners in warm climates who drive in performance mode every day. Almost every time they drive the car. Their batteries wear out quicker but they never hit any perf mode quota.

Charging in Perf mode is hard on your battery because it charges to its maximum capacity (for the car at least) and lets it heat up to 40C. That way when you finish charging the cells have less internal resistance and perform better. The battery is full so you get maximum power output compared to a std charge.

 

[wiztecy]

....also when owners track their car the motor is what's first hit when things start to heat up and the car begins limiting components followed by the PEM. How's your motor temp compared to your PEM temps? The explanations that their coming up also sound odd to me.

 

[wiztecy]

Well, the 1.5 PEM does use expensive military-type connectors for its cables going in and out; these were replaced with cheaper alternatives for the 2.x PEM. I don't know whether the 1.5 PEM uses the same Molex connector for the fan that has burned up on the 2.x PEMs of several of the members here.

There's around 5 military/aircraft aluminum connectors on the Roadster from what I can see, three large ones that goto the batter/PEM (Two drivers, one passenger side), one medium size high quality screw on/off plastic connector with 10 or more of the standard 12v gauge wires plus a nice size ground wire on it (passenger side), and a smaller one (driver's side) like the latter with a few wires. Also underneath there are three molex style connectors. The PEM blower is on the passenger side, so possibly the wire run is with that medium military type of connector with the larger ground. Next time I have the PEM off I'll try to trace it down.

The blower for the AC motor uses a molex connector, so most likely so does the PEM. But I haven't heard any 1.5's melting any kind of molex connections, only the 2.x's at the PEM.

 

[John W. Ratcliff]

This information came straight from supposedly the top Roadster tech at Tesla after reviewing all of the logs from my car. I'm just repeating what I was told.

It would be nice if that tech could respond here

 

[ML Auto]

You really need to put the car in debug mode and read the temps. Otherwise you are just going to have to live with what those incompetent people at Tesla are telling you. Its nicer to have actual temp readings on the screen rather than a bar gauge anyways.

 

[John W. Ratcliff]

>>You really need to put the car in debug mode and read the temps.

I'm really not interested in trying to diagnose problems myself. If I can't trust the manufacturer of the car to competently work on their own vehicle, then I clearly bought the wrong model.

It's not about *me* putting it in 'debug mode', or 'reading temps', or 'processing logs', that's the job of my mechanic.

It sounds like people here are stating that Tesla simply outright lied to me. The bottom line is that I have zero interest in either diagnosing or attempting to fix my own car. I've put mechanic's kids through college over the years, and I don't plan to suddenly start trying to become a mechanic now; me and 'fixing things' just don't mix well.

So, if the owners here are saying that I have to learn how to fix the car myself if I want to own it, this just seems like I made a completely messed up decision buying this car. The ironic thing is that I picked the Roadster over buying a Ferrari 360 because I figured the Roadster would be dramatically easier and less expensive to maintain.

 

[gregd]

I expect (suspect) that any rare car would have a similar level of mechanic's challenges. The rarer the car, the more likely your mechanics will have challenges. The Roadster certainly has that opportunity.

I expect (suspect) that any rare car will have its community of users, tinkerers, and professional mechanics. The Roadster is no different. Not all users are going to be tinkerers or mechanics, nor do they need to be, but they're part of the community none the less. Our community is here to support each other and the unique cars that we drive.

To that end, I tried using Performance mode, for (believe it or not) the first time. (Hey, it's already steering wheel-gripping fast, why push it?) Hit the Performance mode, nice white letters. Punched it getting on the freeway, and it lasted about 3 seconds before going red. That was fun, but there certainly cannot be a counter, since this was #1. Outside temp was 87F according to the VDS; battery and motor were both relatively cold (up 2 bars from the left). PEM in the upper-middle, as it usually is when casually driving around town. Turned white shortly after, so it did recover.

I was going to suggest that your PEM fan ducting might be leaking, preventing sufficient air from getting to the PEM, but I've already had mine weather stripped (fixing earlier problems), so that's probably not it. But I'm with you believing that this can't be right... I'll try using it more often, and see if I can figure out a correlation with something else. Also added to the (short) list of things to discuss with the SC next time I visit.

Hang in there...

 

[thefortunes]

>>You really need to put the car in debug mode and read the temps.

I'm really not interested in trying to diagnose problems myself. If I can't trust the manufacturer of the car to competently work on their own vehicle, then I clearly bought the wrong model.

It's not about *me* putting it in 'debug mode', or 'reading temps', or 'processing logs', that's the job of my mechanic.

It sounds like people here are stating that Tesla simply outright lied to me. The bottom line is that I have zero interest in either diagnosing or attempting to fix my own car. I've put mechanic's kids through college over the years, and I don't plan to suddenly start trying to become a mechanic now; me and 'fixing things' just don't mix well.

So, if the owners here are saying that I have to learn how to fix the car myself if I want to own it, this just seems like I made a completely messed up decision buying this car. The ironic thing is that I picked the Roadster over buying a Ferrari 360 because I figured the Roadster would be dramatically easier and less expensive to maintain.

Respectfully, if you "aren't interested in trying to diagnose problems yourself," then what is your purpose in asking the question on a forum? What we are asking you to do takes about 10 seconds (diagnostic mode) or 15 minutes (pulling logs and reviewing data). Both of which will make you a more informed owner and may help identify the problem.

You have a great group of people here who are trying to help and you are pulling the "I'm too good for that, I have people who do that for me" card. If that's the case, then accept Tesla's incorrect diagnosis, keep or sell your car, and move on.

 

[wiztecy]

That's going really too far saying Tesla lied to you. I didn't see anywhere in this thread where other forum members have stated Tesla lied to you. If I missed that, please indicated the thread number.

Its a rare car, rare cars are not for everyone and you have to enjoy them for what they are. I assumed the risks and happy I did. As for Tesla being liars, that's ridiculous assumptions to say about any company or person unless you have concrete proof. This forum is fantastic, and has addressed and by far succeeded service by quite a few Tesla technicians or even surpassed. If you don't want to help diagnose an issue, you're not contributing to a community that helps others by learning from others, I don't know why you're even a member here. But the real person missing out is you and others in the future with a related issue who would of been helped by you.

Also you bought a used car, that also is in a class by itself. If you bought this car directly from Tesla, even a CPO you'd have more justification. But honestly you bought a used car from a private seller. You assumed the risks of buying a used car without any warranty. It is what it is.

 

[John W. Ratcliff]

>>Respectfully, if you "aren't interested in trying to diagnose problems yourself," then what is your purpose in asking the question on a forum?

The reason I asked was because I wanted to know if anyone else had experienced this issue and what their resolution was. I really appreciate that people here are technical and are making technical suggestions but, I'm just not qualified to do anything in that regard. Absolutely everything everyone has suggested to do here Tesla service already did. They had my car for a week and did everything imaginable to it diagnostically. If they are not qualified or competent enough to fix their own cars then I clearly made a giant mistake buying it.

They already pulled all of the logs. They already inspected everything, checked everything, cleaned the PEM, etc. Yes, I could download the logs myself and share it here online. Maybe that would be helpful. I'm certainly willing to do that.

But I'm just not at all qualified to do anything mechanically on the car.

I appreciate very much the advice and help people have offered in this forum. I will do what I can to get more information if possible.

 

[ML Auto]

The suggestion of putting the car in debug mode just allows you to see the actual temps of the components. More like having a gauge vs. just having a warning light. Judging by the cars you have had and were considering, I would think that would be of some importance to you. You don't have to be a technician to want to know when your car is overheating. If the PEM temp starts out near 45C in the morning, then you know you have a sensor problem.

 

[laweijfmvo]

How to put the car into debug mode? I actually can't get into performance mode at all, it's red as soon as i switch into it, even first thing in the morning, 60F all night.

 

[strider]

So, what you are saying is that you can only drive a Roadster in performance mode if it's like 50 degrees outside? Frankly, if you can't drive a sports car in 80-90 degree weather, that's certainly a severe limitation; one I was not aware of before purchasing the car.

The answer to your question is Yes. As I stated previously, the car was designed, built, and tested in the SF Bay Area, for the SF Bay Area. That area has an incredible mild climate. As you move into Fall and cooler temps see if Perf mode stays White for longer. If it does then there's nothing wrong w/ your car. However, if on a crisp Fall morning (and your garage is also nice and cool) it goes immediately into Red mode like it does in the summer then there's something wrong with the PEM and or sensors. What you should see (when the ouside temps are cool) is if you romp on it it'll switch to Red but a few seconds after you let off it'll switch back to White.

 

[thefortunes]

I just ran my entire commute (27.8 miles this morning) in Performance Mode. 5-6 hard accelerations interspersed with highway travel between 65-90mph (more 70ish than anything else).

Ambient temp was about 68F, standard charge had completed about 1 hour prior to leaving, battery/PEM/motor were all around 80F at the start.

Whenever I punched it I maxed out the 200kW output, and it stayed in Performance right up until I reached 80-90mph with occasional dropping out (red letters) at the very end. If it went red it recovered almost immediately once I stopped accelerating.

I didn't do a very good job of documenting any of above parameters, but I think this is enough to say that there is something wrong John.