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RobodEVil cars

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Dan D.

Desperately Seeking Sapience
Dec 7, 2020
1,351
1,667
Vancouver, BC
A dark* information FUD thread on how autonomous cars (L2 to L5) might be used in bad or evil ways. But mainly how can we prevent them.

For example:
Intentionally taking out your "pretty good" Level 2 car when you know you're gonna get wasted, and using it to get home.

An underage kid sending his dad's L4/5 car out for a pick-up beer run, with the order paid for by his credit card.

Sending out your L4/5 car to pick up illegal things, and if you're caught, saying "the drugs weren't in the car when it left, someone must have thrown them through the open window".

Weaponizing the L4/5 car or sending the car on a path to commit intentional crimes, whether you care about getting caught or not.

This has nothing to do with any particular car company at all, or the current state of these type of car, but what other types of wicked things might people do in the future?

Should there be shutoff switches on the outside?

*Edit: dark like black-comedy, I hope that was clear
 
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CW: this is an evil thread, so…

Intentionally taking out your "pretty good" Level 2 car when you know you're gonna get wasted, and using it to get home.
People already do this sort of thing today. Giving them another rationalization isn’t enough to take action on self-driving cars other than the currently already established set of consequences.
An underage kid sending his dad's L4/5 car out for a pick-up beer run, with the order paid for by his credit card.
You could do that today with DoorDash except that you can’t since all alcohol transactions require in-person ID verification. Pickup of alcohol won’t ever be permitted in this scenario.
Sending out your L4/5 car to pick up illegal things, and if you're caught, saying "the drugs weren't in the car when it left, someone must have thrown them through the open window".
That one’s neat. Reminds me of a package drop. Still illegal for the person doing the drop. Maybe less so for the receiver which I’m sure dealers love… buyers who are paranoid and don’t want to stick their neck out. Sounds like a setup, tbh. You a cop? You have to tell me if you are. /s
Weaponizing the L4/5 car or sending the car on a path to commit intentional crimes, whether you care about getting caught or not.
If it’s legit L4/L5, then it won’t be capable of doing most crimes anyway. Could you provide an example of a true L4 car committing a crime that would be unique to L4/L5 cars? Cause I suspect they might even reduce crime (eg not allowing rolling stops, won’t let you ram into your ex).
This has nothing to do with any particular car company at all, or the current state of these type of car, but what other types of wicked things might people do in the future?
Murd*r the driver and let the car continue driving to its destination in order to deliver the body.
 
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You could do that today with DoorDash except that you can’t since all alcohol transactions require in-person ID verification. Pickup of alcohol won’t ever be permitted in this scenario.
Lots of places don't really care about rules, and 'wink wink' at the ID they're given. Maybe not the large companies, but Joe's Bar & Off-Sale might. L4/5 just makes it easy.

"The Department has recently conducted enforcement actions throughout the state and found significant violations of the law," it wrote. "Most concerning is that minors are routinely able to purchase alcohol through delivery from restaurants."


If it’s legit L4/L5, then it won’t be capable of doing most crimes anyway. Could you provide an example of a true L4 car committing a crime that would be unique to L4/L5 cars? Cause I suspect they might even reduce crime (eg not allowing rolling stops, won’t let you ram into your ex).
Well it seems to me that s**cide b***ers would have a pretty easy job if they didn't actually have to go. Just tell the car to drive to the place with a frunk-load of ... well, you know.

Oh, what about putting those gladiator chariot axle scythe things on the wheels, or a jousting spear. The car doesn't know it's got them.

Before you say this is all too evil, remember those 'legitimate' companies are already putting evil stuff on robot dogs and flying drones and nobody is stopping them. There could be L5 police chase cars, self-loading paddywagons with robot-arm grabbers like they have on garbage trucks.
8578a7d1c24976e16db0a8c35cebb934.jpg
 
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Should there be shutoff switches on the outside?

would evil bikers go around hitting off switches for fun :D

Well those people are on video and there would be civil punishments if caught. I expect that external shutoff or safety notification strips will be called for by citizen's groups after each out-of-control AV incident. Possibly they will never actually get installed, but victims will ask for shutoff switches anyway.
 
Lots of places don't really care about rules, and 'wink wink' at the ID they're given. Maybe not the large companies, but Joe's Bar & Off-Sale might. L4/5 just makes it easy.

"The Department has recently conducted enforcement actions throughout the state and found significant violations of the law," it wrote. "Most concerning is that minors are routinely able to purchase alcohol through delivery from restaurants."



Well it seems to me that s**cide b***ers would have a pretty easy job if they didn't actually have to go. Just tell the car to drive to the place with a frunk-load of ... well, you know.

Oh, what about putting those gladiator chariot axle scythe things on the wheels, or a jousting spear. The car doesn't know it's got them.

Before you say this is all too evil, remember those 'legitimate' companies are already putting evil stuff on robot dogs and flying drones and nobody is stopping them. There could be L5 police chase cars, self-loading paddywagons with robot-arm grabbers like they have on garbage trucks.
8578a7d1c24976e16db0a8c35cebb934.jpg
re: alcohol
That sounds like an entirely different problem then, and self-driving cars shouldn’t be blamed for the lack of ID verification.

re: SBers
True… that’s an interesting scenario. Self-driving cars aren’t really enabling a new attack vector, though. Delayed package delivery or using other means (like a drone which is way cheaper and uses a remote operator) are other much easier means.

re: jousting
Also creative and more effective this way than say trying it with a drone that would go off balance. This makes me think of the option for FSD without a passenger (or with a fake one) would be like a Mars Rover of doom (but like on Earth). Even with a passenger, you could have it drive while you shoot a firearm repeatedly out the window. A FSD car is basically an accomplice. Do we already need a “do no harm to humans” rule for AIs?

re: OTA updates of doom
Now here’s a really good one that’s specific to any car that’s capable of getting an OTA update. A bad actor could potentially install a virus that later allows them to have all vehicles accelerate full blast when they get the final ‘go’ signal. It would be one heck of an attack.
 
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re: OTA updates of doom
Now here’s a really good one that’s specific to any car that’s capable of getting an OTA update. A bad actor could potentially install a virus that later allows them to have all vehicles accelerate full blast when they get the final ‘go’ signal. It would be one heck of an attack.
No need to install a virus. Just a cable-driven remote trigger to press the accelerator, or yank the wheel, assuming the cars still had some manual controls.

This makes me think of the option for FSD without a passenger (or with a fake one) would be like a Mars Rover of doom (but like on Earth). Even with a passenger, you could have it drive while you shoot a firearm repeatedly out the window. A FSD car is basically an accomplice. Do we already need a “do no harm to humans” rule for AIs?
Or no driver, no passenger, with a drone gun drive-by. Gangs would like that, though it seems somewhat passé these days.


One way I can think of to reduce the risk is No Private Sale of L4/L5 to the Public. Vehicles would all have to be car-share and internal/external video would be monitored by a security company.
 
re: SBers
True… that’s an interesting scenario. Self-driving cars aren’t really enabling a new attack vector, though. Delayed package delivery or using other means (like a drone which is way cheaper and uses a remote operator) are other much easier means.
VBIED's are truly massive, relatively cheap and much worse than a drone at least for the non-state-funded group. I believe self-driving cars/trucks would be a huge problem, the added reason is no need to recruit anyone.
 
Well those people are on video and there would be civil punishments if caught. I expect that external shutoff or safety notification strips will be called for by citizen's groups after each out-of-control AV incident. Possibly they will never actually get installed, but victims will ask for shutoff switches anyway.
If caught. That's a huge if. People seem to have no fear breaking into Teslas despite the sentry mode video. I suspect they are very rarely caught.
 
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No need to install a virus. Just a cable-driven remote trigger to press the accelerator, or yank the wheel, assuming the cars still had some manual controls.
How would you install that on millions of cars without anyone noticing?
One car. The car they are using.
Edit: Oh, you were responding to the message that said "All Cars". I see what you meant. I was just talking about one specific attack.


L4/5 could be a good getaway vehicle too. Commit a robbery, fill the car up with the goods, tell the car to go to the isolated rendezvous point. If it gets stopped no big deal. If you've stolen the car even better, tons of crimes happen with stolen cars before the owners even report the theft. Maybe the cars need to be programmed to Not be Capable of Being Stolen by shutting down if they leave a GPS zone.
 
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re: People abusing External Shutoffs
Well those people are on video and there would be civil punishments if caught.
If caught. That's a huge if. People seem to have no fear breaking into Teslas despite the sentry mode video. I suspect they are very rarely caught.

I guess, but people breaking into Teslas are probably after some monetary gain, though some scratch cars for fun too, can't prevent everything. People abusing emergency equipment are just goofballs. Not many people pull the emergency brakes on trains or pull fire alarms. Some sure. I still think there needs to be some manual override for a malfunctioning L4/L5, after all if it's malfunctioning it's not going to respond to anything else other than you pulling the plug.
 
One car. The car they are using.


L4/5 could be a good getaway vehicle too. Commit a robbery, fill the car up with the goods, tell the car to go to the isolated rendezvous point. If it gets stopped no big deal. If you've stolen the car even better, tons of crimes happen with stolen cars before the owners even report the theft. Maybe the cars need to be programmed to Not be Capable of Being Stolen by shutting down if they leave a GPS zone.
Oh, I'm more concerned about what would be the deadliest terrorist attack in history.
Your proposed scheme would require continually finding exploits in the cars code as the vulnerability that allowed it would be closed after each successful attempt. It would be a huge amount of work and risk and anyone sophisticated enough to do it probably has better ways to make money.
 
Oh, I'm more concerned about what would be the deadliest terrorist attack in history.
Your proposed scheme would require continually finding exploits in the cars code as the vulnerability that allowed it would be closed after each successful attempt. It would be a huge amount of work and risk and anyone sophisticated enough to do it probably has better ways to make money.
Hacking wasn't my idea, think it's you & DF that said that. I'm considering one car only. Just manual means, requires no hacking. It's your car, just tell it where to go. Or if you have managed to steal the car already then presumably you have the keycard so just tell it where to go. No exploit needed.
 
Hacking wasn't my idea, think it's you & DF that said that. I'm considering one car only. Just manual means, requires no hacking. It's your car, just tell it where to go. Or if you have managed to steal the car already then presumably you have the keycard so just tell it where to go. No exploit needed.
You'd need to figure out how to disable all the uploading of video and telemetry or you'd get caught.
 
Or someone could just put a toxin in the cars. People get in and out of the cars and when they touch the inside of the vehicle like the armrest or the seat they are contaminated. Those people would contaminate others.
Transmissible toxin could be done today, like on a bus, train, or anywhere with a touchable surface. Advantage to a RobodEVil car is that it could be targeted to a specific location I guess. Sounds like an episode of Fringe. What's a good toxin to contaminate others, Hep A perhaps? What substance could be used to smear that contains Hep A?

Incidentally I will be trademarking RobodEVil. Could be a good character for a superhero movie. RobodEVil vs Robodevil?