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Roundabouts and FSD

GeorgeSymonds

Active Member
Mar 16, 2018
1,067
657
UK
Our AP2 car is miles better on the AP front when we took delivery, and anyone thinks AP1 is still better than AP2+ cars are deluded.
.
You need to try AP1 again, for basic cruisng up and down motorways AP1 is rock solid with none of the issues AP2+ has. Its as if Mobileye new the limitations and stuck to what it was good at. I can't remember the last time I heard an AP1 owner with a problem.
 

GeorgeSymonds

Active Member
Mar 16, 2018
1,067
657
UK
Someone elsewhere posted this link used on a Tesla recruitment page. Thought that I would pass it on in context of this thread.

30 second video https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/images/careers/autopilot/network.mp4

Gives some good insight into what AP is seeing, even on city streets with junctions - whether it is actually driving is not known. Not sure if it is pre or post (another) autopilot rewrite that is apparently near completion. But other shots from the recruitment page look right up to date as they show code for stop sign recognition.

[edit]
2 things that I notice most of interest.
First, that lights (stop, indicators) on vehicles seem to be of little interest. And second, how quick it picks up stop signs - I'm wondering if its getting these from known locations its so fast, but then, its also highlighting them precisely too. Of note, it also picks up an equally occluded pedestrian. So either a mega cheat, or very impressive.
I also like the driving around the puddle at first intersection - wonder whose driving? Very positive if its AP - there is hope for potholes and speed bumps!

Who knows, Tesla have been shown to cheat before with these videos, usually either selective editing of it working.

Watch the video below without trying to see when it was filmed

 

gangzoom

Active Member
May 22, 2014
1,244
1,057
Uk
You need to try AP1 again, for basic cruisng up and down motorways AP1 is rock solid with none of the issues AP2+ has. Its as if Mobileye new the limitations and stuck to what it was good at. I can't remember the last time I heard an AP1 owner with a problem.

I use AP2 all the time on my daily commute for at least 50% of the trip on single lane a roads. When I tried the same road with an AP1 car it tried to crash into a lorry within 10 seconds, and than nearly drove off the road at the first bend. Utterly uselss.

Where as this is what AP2 is now doing, slowing down coming up to a 2 lane divide, than picking the right lane to go into, and carrying on regardless. From about 30 seconds onwards you will see the cycle lane painted on to the payment, even as recently as 6 months ago AP2 use to think the white line was the edge of the road - which is clearly wrong, but now it is able to reliably recognise the end of the road is kerb and not the painted white line. Add in traffic light recognition and AP2 will be very close to been able to automate 70-80% of my daily commute!!


AP1 on that this stretch of road would have crashed at the traffic lights 100% of the time guaranteed. As I've said its only the deluded who thinks AP1 is still better than AP2.

 

Battpower

Supporting Member
Oct 10, 2019
1,992
1,953
Uk
Where as this is what AP2 is now doing, slowing down coming up to a 2 lane divide, than picking the right lane to go into, and carrying on regardless.

Hmm, well not my experience exactly (HW3). In current version (similar to past few) the car clings to center of Lane markers as best it can, then when the single widening lane turns into two separate lanes with a new lane marker it either cries out for help and hand the wheel over to me completely, or dives desperately into one or other of the 'new' lanes.

With large re-worked 'on ramps' where two lanes merge with the main carriageway separately, automated speed changes are a real hazard to other vehicle and it feels very unpredictable how the car might try to navigate such situations.
 
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GeorgeSymonds

Active Member
Mar 16, 2018
1,067
657
UK
I think Gangzoom may have missed the point completely. If you exclude the situations that even Tesla tells you not to use any version of its AP software (including the scenario GZ shows), AP1 is more robust than HW2+. The fact that HW2+ better handles situations where Tesla tells you not to use it isn’t really relevant.

D016AD5A-F3F5-4906-83B9-B388BC586C51.jpeg
 

AndrewGR

Member
Oct 18, 2019
390
184
Oxfordshire, UK
Looking at the Tesla instructions, there is a huge undefined gap between the situations that Tesla are saying autosteer is intended for, and the situations where you are instructed not to use it. Seems reasonable to me that autosteer, with an attentive driver, should be able to cope in that grey zone most of the time. In my experience it can’t. And the amount of attention required to be ready to take over as it gives up going (or not going) round bends is simply too much! Even TACC is barely acceptable in the grey area. I’ve found it brakes when there is an oncoming truck on the right side of the road or when there is a car there on a left hand bend.
 

Adopado

Active Member
Aug 19, 2019
3,548
2,682
Scotland
Even TACC is barely acceptable in the grey area. I’ve found it brakes when there is an oncoming truck on the right side of the road or when there is a car there on a left hand bend.

Yes, I have routinely used dumb cruise control on other cars on small A roads and even in 30 limits from time to time ... these are not really feasible for me with TACC due to the problems described. Setting aside AP for a moment I would be interested to simply have the option to set a dumb cruise speed.
 

Artiste

Member
Jun 17, 2019
416
298
Lancashire
I think Gangzoom may have missed the point completely. If you exclude the situations that even Tesla tells you not to use any version of its AP software (including the scenario GZ shows), AP1 is more robust than HW2+. The fact that HW2+ better handles situations where Tesla tells you not to use it isn’t really relevant.

View attachment 506832

This just shows how far away Tesla is from achieving full FSD. Wasn’t FSD supposed to be “feature complete” by the end of LAST year?
 

GeorgeSymonds

Active Member
Mar 16, 2018
1,067
657
UK
This just shows how far away Tesla is from achieving full FSD. Wasn’t FSD supposed to be “feature complete” by the end of LAST year?

yes, but did anyone ask what feature complete means? That video is over 2 years old and the car still can’t do most of those things, and what it does do can be temperamental, so what gives?
 

Hugh-SG

Member
Jun 3, 2019
89
97
Vancovuer, BC
We have three really tight hairpin turns on the drive up to the Cypress Mountain ski area in West Vancouver.

My EAP does slow down for the corner but then tries but can't figure out where the lane is during the middle of the hair pin turn and like a roundabout, things get very entertaining very fast.

We need to remember that EAP / AP is an 8 year old child in Year 3 of school. It needs constant Adult (read driver-pilot supervision).

It thinks it knows what it is doing 90% of the time, but like a child it can get distracted ............... SQUIRREL !!!!..... and do the unexpected.

Every time we human's have to intervene, the data for that "override" gets uploaded to Tesla in the wee hours of the night.

It is this data that helps to improve EAP / AP. making it a better product in the long haul. And unlike other cars we do not need to go to a dealership for an expensive chip replacement. We just wait for the next "Update" download notification to arrive and enjoy a new car next day.

Food for thought.

Cheers! Hugh-SG
 
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Battpower

Supporting Member
Oct 10, 2019
1,992
1,953
Uk
My EAP does slow down for the corner but then tries but can't figure out where the lane is during the middle of any hair pin turn or roundabout and thinks get very entertaining very fast.

I don't have the guts to even let the car try to work out those kind of situations!
 

VanillaAir_UK

Supporting Member
Jun 17, 2019
7,704
5,164
Surrey, UK
Absolutely. Near the top of my 'why' (does it do that) list is that when exiting a motorway on NOA it leaves indicating until it has already started to pass the offramp. It knows its coming off as the sat nav shows its going to take the exit, but why leave indicating to far too late.

I wonder if this video from Green at around 2:55/:56 (step through frame by frame, sad I know) gives a clue as to why? tl;dw autopilot does not recognise it as a safe (green) to exit ramp until very late on. Prior to that, whilst it seems to recognise the offramp, it does not recognise it as driveable, ie effectively treated the same as a hard shoulder.

 

AnthonyLR

Member
Feb 21, 2020
596
467
London
This honestly looked like pot luck to me. Straight after it's doing something unhelpful getting onto the motorway
It's definitely getting smarter, and it seems to be getting smarter, quicker. The guy from the video has filmed hours and hours of driving footage over the years. It is quite something to take him by pleasant surprise.
 

bhav

Member
Feb 24, 2020
436
244
London, UK
It's definitely getting smarter, and it seems to be getting smarter, quicker. The guy from the video has filmed hours and hours of driving footage over the years. It is quite something to take him by pleasant surprise.
Yeah I've watched a lot of his videos but frankly he tests it in conditions it's just not designed for and then is (for some reason) startled when it doesn't work / does something unexpected.

In the UK it's clearly not designed for city streets / roundabouts etc and if it happens to work I really think it's just getting lucky and would never trust it. Plus, the manual specifically tells you it's for motorways and dual carriageways only so if you use it outside of that and something goes wrong you've only got yourself to blame (well, you're to blame no matter what but at least on motorways the behaviour is predictable).
 

Battpower

Supporting Member
Oct 10, 2019
1,992
1,953
Uk
Autopilot does not make passengers feel confident in it, and Tesla really needs to fix that

Yes, I can agree with that.... and.....

if it happens to work I really think it's just getting lucky

.... certainly true for anything roundabout related. Even in his video, lane positioning was random / unpredictable. I liked it when he seemed to suggest the car got into the right lane on purpose! Dream on....

and then.....

at least on motorways the behaviour is predictable

sorry.... lol. Not in my car. fantom brake under bridges / shadows, overtaking trucks, tries taking turn-off early in to lay-by instead of exit ramp, cancels overtaking mid-way through lane change (sometimes), takes exit on NoA and randomly dives left or right when centre lane marker starts....

You must be working to a different defintition of predictable. I guess I just predicted all those behaviours so may be you are correct.

Any way, if this talked about re-write ever hits the streets, we might see some real changes in behaviour & fun!
 
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Watts_Up

Active Member
Mar 4, 2019
3,307
2,200
In a galaxy far, far away
7m50s FSD slowed down to 50 before even getting onto the slip road.
How to unnecessarily annoy lorry drivers. It’s still a learner driver in my book.
I have been watching Oliver Ryan (Tesla Driver) for a long time and I don't miss any of his videos.
I would say that I am quite impressed about how he tests the limit of the FSD capabilities.

I am far away from his ability and sometime I'm even scared when watching some of the videos...
I remember that he used to have his wife accompanying him until she went very scare when
going full blast in a curve followed by a narrow bridge and a car was coming in the opposite direction...

I understand that with his experience of computers games, using his car on Auto Pilot is the ultimate games for which he excels.​

Recently, I noticed that Oliver Ryan (Tesla Driver) changed the position of the camera, so we can see when FSD is activated (Blue circle).
However, we cannot see when he adjusts the speed and the distance using the right steering wheel button. (See video below.)

When I am using FSD I am quite often adjusting the speed, as I noticed that FSD don't really slow down when approaching a curve,
unless I am following another car.

So, you are right, constantly adjusting the speed and also pushing the turn signal to help the car to perform a merge
or to exit from a roundabout like today video, I would not consider been a Full Self Driving demonstration.

A Full Self Driving should be putting a destination on the map and let the car decides which line to use,
when to change a lane, and adjust the speed correctly without the driver giving extra guidance.

At this point the real demonstration was showing that he didn't touch the steering wheel, which is already great, but this is not Full Self Driving.

 
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