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running on Linux

Discussion in 'Model S: User Interface' started by widodh, Oct 26, 2011.

  1. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    Ah, there it goes! It's not an "American Made" car ;)

    It really do like the choice for Linux :) It work (and program) with it, it's my daily and income. I really do hope I'll be able to tweak it.

    Since Linux is GPL and they might have made changes to the Linux kernel I wonder if they are going to release the source-code like they are supposed to.
     
  2. AnOutsider

    AnOutsider S532 # XS27

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    I'd be worried if they did. My car (especially one internet-connected) is not one I want open to vulnerabilities. Hackers poring over the source code is a quick way for those to surface :frown:
     
  3. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    We might go off-topic here. But the GPL license from the Linux kernel (and othre GNU software) oblige you to release any modifications you make in the software. So if Tesla would NOT release they would be violating the GPL(v2) license.
     
  4. ckessel

    ckessel Active Member

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    And there have been studies that show pretty convincingly that open source is safer from hackers, not less safe.
     
  5. richkae

    richkae VIN587

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    It is unlikely that Tesla would have to make any changes to the Linux kernel in order to build their applications for the car - thus there is nothing to release.
     
  6. drees

    drees Active Member

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    Doesn't matter if they made changes or not - if you are distributing GPLd software you are obligated to also distribute the source code used to build said software to whom is receiving said software.
     
  7. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    Indeed! They'll probably distribute the firmware as a ROM file of some kind, that includes the precompiled Linux kernel and they are obliged to distribute the source code of that ROM.

    I'm not sure if they could distribute a .ko file inside that ROM with their own kernel modules they might have written to access specific vehicle information? Could be that they have done this in userspace (which seems more safe).

    I remember this issue with Linksys a few years ago. After a lot of complaints they had to release the source code of their routers. (WL54G iirc).

    Would be nice though to be able to SSH to your car and pull diagnostics from there! You could then do a lot of cool stuff :)

    Since there will be a WiFi hotspot in the car I assume the routing + DHCP is also done by the Linux code running in the car? Since they'll probably share the same 3G/4G connection the car already has.
     
  8. ckessel

    ckessel Active Member

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    IANAL, but there are differences between shipping software and supplying a service. Android phones run on Linux and I don't think they ship source to every phone buyer.
     
  9. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    #9 widodh, Oct 27, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2011
    The source code from Android is not shipped to every customer, but it is freely available on the internet. Tesla doesn't have to sent a copy to every user, but they should give it when asked for.
     
  10. drees

    drees Active Member

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    Exactly - you don't have to ship source code with the GPL binaries, but you do have to make them available at a reasonable cost - which typically means making it available for download on a website or shipping a CD containing source when asked for a nominal S&H fee.
     
  11. Doug_G

    Doug_G Lead Moderator

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    They would have to release any operating system enhancements, sure, but not their proprietary application level stuff that runs on top of the OS.
     
  12. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Noticed a Linux extension already using TESLA as an acronym:
    TESLA 0.4
     
  13. bolosky

    bolosky Member

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    The Roadster runs Linux, too. Has anyone seen any source code anywhere?

    I sure haven't.
     
  14. W.Petefish

    W.Petefish Active Member

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    My guess is that it is based on Debian GNU as it runs on an ARM7.
     
  15. Talkredius

    Talkredius Member

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    from my logfile :

    Aug 4 15:01:17 syslogd started: BusyBox v1.00 (2010.06.03-16:13+0000)
    Aug 4 15:01:17 init: ^MStarting pid 134, console /dev/console: '/sbin/ifconfig'
    Aug 4 15:01:19 kernel: klogd started: BusyBox v1.00 (2010.06.03-16:13+0000)
    Aug 4 15:01:19 init: ^MStarting pid 137, console /dev/console: '/bin/mv'
    Aug 4 15:01:19 kernel: Linux version 2.6.11.8-2.6.0 ([email protected]) (gcc version 3.4.3) #1 Fri Mar 19 16:17:19 PDT 2010
    Aug 4 15:01:19 kernel: CPU: Philips-LPC2294 [fff00000] (ARMv3)
     
  16. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    I don't think Debian ever shipped with the 2.6.11 kernel, so I guess it is not Debian, or they have been compiling themselfs.

    Debian seems a logical choice though, they are one of they few distro's building for ARM.

    I see 'ifconfig' being loaded there, anyone found a IP interface on the roadster?
     
  17. neroden

    neroden Happy Model S Owner

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    Uh-oh. That's a custom build of the kernel: ([email protected]) (gcc version 3.4.3)
    That means Tesla needs to release the source code for their build (perhaps as simple as the options they used).

    Looks like it's an off-the-shelf busybox, in which case they could simply point to the busybox site, but if it's a custom build, then again they need to release the options they used.

    I happen to know how a lot of the free software licenses work. Tesla needs to provide the source code for any GPL-licensed software they modify (either by handing a CD to the customer or by putting it on their website) and needs to tell the customer where to find the source code for any GPL-licensed software they use unmodified. Compilation options count as modification.

    Someone needs to remind Tesla of their (really easy to satisfy) obligations here. The BusyBox copyright holders in particular *will* sue over license violations and have done so repeatedly in the past, and won damages. The kernel copyright holders can sue too though we are historically less likely to.
     
  18. drees

    drees Active Member

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    Like I said before - doesn't matter if the code is modified or not - they need to provide source for GPL binaries to customers when asked.
     
  19. W.Petefish

    W.Petefish Active Member

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    Yes it did. Debian goes way back.
     
  20. neroden

    neroden Happy Model S Owner

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    You are correct of course. But nobody generally bothers you if you point your customers upstream for the source to truly unmodified code. Which this isn't.

    If we're being technical, "when asked" is not correct. They're actually pretty much required to provide corresponding source, in the form most suitable for modification, whether or not asked (the only alternative is to provide a written offer to provide source, which is a dumb alternative left over from the days of floppy disks).

    Best practice is to have all the source code for every version they release downloadable from their website, and to mention this in the owner's manual.

    Someone should actually bug them about this, they're gonna get sued if they don't clean up their act.
     

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