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Russia/Ukraine conflict

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Ahem, it is actually more significant to be able to maintain global peace without needing to engage in large scale warfare. For a century even. So the USA has a bit of catching up to do.


Britain did maintain the largest physical empire the world has ever known. Britain was always a naval power with the navy being the premiere force. It did fight and win some pretty large wars overseas, but it never supported an army anywhere near the size of the US Army in WW II fighting on opposite sides of the world at the same time. The RN has provided good support for the British Army fighting wars in various places, sometimes spread out across different places on a continent, but the British army has never been huge.

Up until WW II the Royal Navy was the best in the world. The US passed it up during the war by putting more hulls in the water and learning to fight carrier battles. The USN's record in carrier to carrier battles was not stellar. They had an outstanding 10 minutes at Midway, a perfect defensive battle at the Battle of the Marianas and otherwise so so performances, but the USN won the attritional war. Because of the high construction capacity the USN could afford to trade carriers in battles in 1942 and come out ahead in the end.

But by the end of the war it was the USN that ruled the waves. It had the most of the capital ship that mattered as well as a massive support fleet.
 
Sorry I remembered the numbers backwards initially and by the time I saw my mistake, it was too late to edit.



Someone here suggested that a handful of Abrams be sent to defend Kyiv. That's not a bad idea. The Ukrainians need to keep a force in the north anyway to deter the Russians. A handful of Abrams that are moved into ambush positions for the roads leading into Kyiv and left there frees up some other resources for offensive action and if it solves the political quandary, it's gold.

The Abrams logistical tail does not suit it for offensive action in this war. I trust Mark Hertling's opinion on this. He has commanded a US armored division in combat and had to keep a lot of Abrams operational. The US logistics system is up to the task of keeping the Abrams in the field. The US has the most sophisticated logistics train in the world. It has to, all it's wars since the 1860s have been fought in other countries and since the 1890s all but a few relatively small operations all US wars have been fought outside the western hemisphere. In WW II the US managed to beat two modern militarizes on opposite sides of the world at the same time. A feat nobody has ever done before or since.

The US is outstanding at getting supply where it needs to go, as well as establishing support facilities. But it also is free of one major headache the Ukrainians have to contend with. The US today has a very simple set of equipment for most things. There is one tank type (Abrams), one tracked APC/IFV (Bradley), one general purpose support vehicle (HMMMV), 3 field artillery (2 of which use the same ammunition), 2 rocket launchers (which use the same ammunition), and a handful of truck types.

The Ukrainians are trying to maintain an army with a mix of almost every ground weapons system in the world. It's a logistical nightmare. Trying to support the Abrams in the offensive along with all the other tank types is going to be a nightmare.
Could Ukraine not hire ex-US or other trained M1A1 support personnel to handle maintenance and training? Similar to the First American Volunteer Group (Flying Tigers) of WWII. I'd think they could find enough folks to support a small unit of Abrams. Paint sharks faces on the front of the tanks. Very retro and very deadly.
 
A worrying development in Orban's Hungary where they seem to be purging all the pro-NATO senior officers in a move directed by the pro-Putin/Russia Defence Minister


and

According to @Telexhu, the minister "dismissed members of the Defence Staff en masse. (...) One source said (...) that at least a hundred colonels, generals had been given unilateral dismissals, while another said that 157 (...) with immediate effect."

According to opposition MP Ágnes Vadai, "this means there is a de-NATOisation going on in the Hungarian Defence Forces at the moment", as "the 45-year-old officers and generals are soldiers with international experience, who speak languages and have been socialised in NATO".….

 
Could Ukraine not hire ex-US or other trained M1A1 support personnel to handle maintenance and training? Similar to the First American Volunteer Group (Flying Tigers) of WWII. I'd think they could find enough folks to support a small unit of Abrams. Paint sharks faces on the front of the tanks. Very retro and very deadly.
Ret. General Hertling (a tankie) talked about this specific potential scenario on a Twitter audio conference last evening. He noted the problem with this is having contractors without U.S. military cover, under the U.S. flag, in Ukraine has significant elevated risks of escalation. Imagine if one or more U.S. contractors got captured by Russia...

He described in detail several problems with the costs/maintenance of the M1A1 in Ukraine and described a significant learning curve, ~1M to rebuild an engine, $500k to rebuild a transmission, needs lots of maintenance including high risk to fail if warm up protocols not followed closely, proven challenges of maintaining a 100 mile logistics chain in prior combat, and that we could be talking about a ~600+ mile logistics/maintenance chain if support was based in Poland.

I personally like the idea of giving Ukraine a token dozen or so number of M1A1s and placing them in West Ukraine with logistics support over the border in Poland. This opens the gate for Germany then to allow large numbers of Leopard 2s into Ukraine where they are really needed and would be very useful and logistically sustainable.
 
Could Ukraine not hire ex-US or other trained M1A1 support personnel to handle maintenance and training? Similar to the First American Volunteer Group (Flying Tigers) of WWII. I'd think they could find enough folks to support a small unit of Abrams. Paint sharks faces on the front of the tanks. Very retro and very deadly.

Trent Telenko has suggested this along with aircraft support, but @iPlug summed up what I was going to say.

The AVG was formed in 1941 in part because the US pretty much knew it was going to be dragged into the war anyway. Roosevelt had been trying to figure out how to get the US involved directly for two years at that point. If the AVG triggered Japan into attacking the US all the better for the grand plan.

Right now the situation is the opposite. The US is trying very hard to stay out of war with Russia.

A worrying development in Orban's Hungary where they seem to be purging all the pro-NATO senior officers in a move directed by the pro-Putin/Russia Defence Minister


and

According to @Telexhu, the minister "dismissed members of the Defence Staff en masse. (...) One source said (...) that at least a hundred colonels, generals had been given unilateral dismissals, while another said that 157 (...) with immediate effect."

According to opposition MP Ágnes Vadai, "this means there is a de-NATOisation going on in the Hungarian Defence Forces at the moment", as "the 45-year-old officers and generals are soldiers with international experience, who speak languages and have been socialised in NATO".….


I wonder what Orban is going to do when Russia loses? Especially if Russia pretty much implodes leaving no support for it's old allies.
 
I wonder what Orban is going to do when Russia loses? Especially if Russia pretty much implodes leaving no support for it's old allies.
You are still the optimist I see. Imagine Hungary's plight if Russia wins.

Nah, this may be a good move for Orban if he is seeking Russian puppet of the year recognition, but no good for Hungary no matter which way it goes
 
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Today on What if Russia Won the Ukraine War but the Western Press Didn't Notice? | naked capitalism

Yves SmithJanuary 17, 2023
The level of creative story-telling about Russia’s progress in the Ukraine War has reached the point where the scenario below is not entirely impossible. Sadly yours truly lacks the literary skills to execute a Philip K. Dick rendering of this sketch:


As Lambert, a battle-scarred veteran of the War in Iraq information wars has repeatedly volunteered, the propaganda shrouding the Ukraine conflict is far more intense and truth-disengaged than anything has encountered. I agree. And as readers and colleagues have attested, it’s also turned plenty of formerly-thinking people into narrative wind-up dolls.

A big reason for the orgy of hype has been that, as Alexander Vershinin pointed out in a recent article in Russia Matters, it is essential for Ukraine to maintain the appearance of success to keep aid flowing:


Mind you, the level of outside backing is greater than Vershinin suggests. The US and its allies are funding Ukraine’s budget deficit. The West has also been providing more manpower support. Ursula von der Leyen had to try to walk back an end-of-November scripted remark that Russia had killed 100,000 Ukraine soldiers. More recently, Douglas Macgregor put the deaths in Ukraine forces at 150,000 and casualties at 450,000.1 Remember at the start of the war, Ukraine’s total forces, including reservists, were roughly 600,000. So reports from Russian forces even as of a couple of months ago, based on radio chatter, that estimated some opposing units were as much as 70% foreign based on chatter in Polish, Romanian, and English seems entirely possible.

Remember also that at the beginning, most Western military experts expected Russia to quickly dispatch Ukraine and were surprised to work out that Russia had not only gone in with comparatively light forces but didn’t have large reserved ready to go. Even so, independent experts often observe that Russia did dispatch most of Ukraine’s initial equipment and much of its manpower.

Even so, the West, having spent decades fighting wars against insurgents, wasn’t prepared for the burn rate of this conflict. So it has been imperative to keep thumping that Russia is being beaten to keep the money flowing long enough to make that a reality…as if the West’s defense misspending could be solved by throwing more money at the problem.

Ukraine’s Mighty Wurlitzer has been dutifully amplified by the Western media: the ghost of Kiev, Snake Island, the insinuations that Russia bombed itself at both the Zaporzhizhia nuclear plant and the Nord Stream pipelines and specific claims that Russia engaging in human wave tactics to horrific losses. We also see hoary old fables like Russia having primitive everything – equipment, technology, training, leadership – predisposing broad swathes of the public to accept derivative spin like the neverending, nevertrue claims that Russia was running out of artillery and missiles.

And we’ve seen an unrelenting deluge of Big Lies, like Putin’s incredible roster of heath problems, his supposed weak hold on power and resulting paranoia, that feeds another oft-told tale, that Putin’s ouster is just in sight by implication would lead to him being replaced by someone more tractable. And as a corollary “Russia is generally bad at everything” comes the claims that Russia’s “conscript” army is suffering from terrible morale and desertions because they are losing so many men compared to the highly motivated, well-trained and equipped, and more blonde Ukrainians.

Russia has made errors, like initially conceptualizing the Special Military Operation as a way to bring Ukraine to the negotiating table, and not anticipating the ferocity of Collective West opposition, or optimistically assuming contract soldiers whose terms of duty ended in August would re-up for the good of Mother Russia. The latter miscalculation thinned out manning across a very long line of contact, setting up the strategically not very consequential but still very bad looking Kharkiv retreat. But they’ve typically recognized problems and made efforts to correct them.

Nevertheless, Soledar has fallen and the loss of Bakhmut looks baked in, absent horrific Russian errors. The so-called Zelensky line is breaking even before Russia has put its recently-mobilized forces to work in a serious way. Regular commentators are waiting for the Russian hammer to fall, although Russia may simply grind more forcefully by pressing harder at more points along the very long line of contact. Remember one concern on the Russian side is avoiding “winning” in a way that leads to NATO panic and desperate action…not that the Collective West’s fragile emotional state can be readily managed.

With that context, you’d expect some members of the press to have worked out that things are not going very well for Ukraine and the classic cowboy movie rescue of the calvary riding over the hill (here in the form of tanks and artillery) will be too little, too late.

Instead, the media seems to be trying to integrate snippets of facts on the ground with the heroic tale of inevitable Ukraine victory. We’ll stick to headlines since they have an impact regardless of whether the rest of the story gets read. Lambert and others flagged the Financial Times story below as an extreme form of flipping facts:

Screen-Shot-2023-01-17-at-5.15.09-AM.png


So instead of the common spin, that Soledar and Bakhumt are not consequential (despite Zelensky demonstrating the reverse by carting a flag from Bakhmut to present to Pelosi), the pink paper is doing that one better by depicting Ukraine as cleverly out attritting Russia.

Screen-Shot-2023-01-16-at-10.35.53-PM.png


Screen-Shot-2023-01-17-at-5.22.14-AM.png


Screen-Shot-2023-01-15-at-11.38.43-PM.png


Confirming what we are seeing in the English language media:



Despite this being a holiday weekend, and hence international news often filling in for the domestic slow-down, my impression is that the Anglo press is averting its eyes from Ukraine. For instance, yesterday morning, there was not a single Ukraine story on Bloomberg’s landing page. Ditto today. The only headline at the Journal is below the fold:

Screen-Shot-2023-01-17-at-5.27.36-AM.png


And the only story on the landing page of the BBC:

Screen-Shot-2023-01-17-at-5.29.57-AM.png


At the same time, we also see charges that Ukraine is plotting yet more stunts, like its Kerch Bridge attack, or its scary-seeming but ultimately ineffective drone attacks on Engels Air base, where Russia stations its nuclear bombers. Recall we’d predicted more terrorist attempts as Ukraine battlefield success looked more remote. From the Ministry of Defense’s Telegram channel Monday morning:2

Screen-Shot-2023-01-16-at-10.26.41-PM.png


Finally, what is particularly disturbing is Ukraine nationals and their allies trying to silence opponents of Banderitism in the US, specifically Scott Ritter:






You’ll note that Ritter had agreed to talk only about his experience as an weapons inspector and keep well away from current events. Yet Ukrainian loyalists vowed to put the restaurant out of business if the owner didn’t cancel Ritter’s appearance. (which I assume means somehow physically destroy it or threaten patrons).

This development followed hard on the heels of this presentation. I’ve sometimes watched Ritter talk to peaceniks and other local groups. They usually skew geriatric and follow instructions, as in ask questions in the Q&A (although there is often a garrulous exception who manages to wrap his query in an over-long anecdote.






In this talk, the first speaker, Dan Kovalik, had been to Donbass and showed photos of daily life, memorials to dead children, shelling damage, reconstruction, and victims of Ukraine torture, including one who’d had all his teeth broken off at the gum line to inflict maximum pain.

Ritter was second and used himself as a case example of how First Amendment rights were being restricted to stifle debate about the Ukraine conflict. He focuses on how his name was on the Ukraine hit list. Ritter was particularly upset that US tax dollars appear to be funding it:

Screen-Shot-2023-01-17-at-5.51.00-AM.png


The Q&A section was a radical departure from the norm for these events. See in particular the woman who starts speaking at 1:06, charges Kovalik with offering propaganda, and loudly insists that Russian war crimes in Bucha and Kherson were investigated and confirmed by UN inspectors. Ritter didn’t have the opportunity to say he’d called for that from the outset, in writing, and no such thing happened. She also tried to hijack the Q&A at several later points.

Another questioner at 1:16 presented himself as of Russian descent3 and proceeded to argue for “facts” that are false, like saying Russia blocked the implementation of the Minsk accord.4 He tried to talk over the moderator when the moderator corrected some of the ethnic Russian’s “information”.

Even though their actions may not have been coordinated, both these speakers hogged air time and stridently maintained they had “facts” that conclusively disproved what the speakers had said….even though those “facts” were falsehoods.

The start of in-person intimidation of anti-Ukraine war voices is a troubling development. This is harder to follow than big media stories but bears watching.
_____

1 Macgregor seems to be applying the classic rule of thumb in modern wars of 3 casualties for every death. But other reports about Ukraine suggest its ratio of dead to injured is way way high due to not having enough field hospitals close to the front so as to be able to treat the wounded in the crucial first hour. So I would assume that Macgregor’s estimate of total Ukraine dead, at 150,000, is pretty good, but the casualties are much lower, at say 150,000. To put it another way, Ukraine’s high level of deaths is due in part to not being prepared to accept the level of casualties it is suffering,

2 Douglas Macgregor dismissed the idea that Ukraine would become the ground for an insurgent war. He explained why the terrain and population distribution worked strongly against that.

3 Entirely possible. For instance, Victoria Nuland’s paternal grandfather was a Russian Jew.

.4 To add: the Maidan coup was not in conformity with constitutional processes, for instance, there were too few votes in the legislature for the legal ouster of Yanukovich; the early 1930s Soviet famine did not target Ukraine even though Ukraine did suffer the most.
Logic and truth will not be tolerated here. Ukraine is savior of the world and it's only taking 30 or so countries pumping hundreds of billions of dollars into it to enable it to prolong the loss.

This lot has drank the Kool aid.
 
It's interesting Putin & co has been very toned down for a month leading up to the Ramstein conference. In Putin speeches Ru is not the aggressor, no nuclear threats, no mobilization (was planned for Jan 15?) etc. Everything not to provoke a bigger response from the Ramstein conference.

The Ramstein conference could have decided on a multinational peacekeeping force in western half of Ukraine, Leopards, Abrams, F16s, Gripen etc.. IMHO
 
Logic and truth will not be tolerated here. Ukraine is savior of the world and it's only taking 30 or so countries pumping hundreds of billions of dollars into it to enable it to prolong the loss.

This lot has drank the Kool aid.
Another take on the same set of facts is that each party has a separate understanding of right and wrong with one side advocating for their understanding of right. Put differently, one side is putting it's money where its mouth is.
 
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You are still the optimist I see. Imagine Hungary's plight if Russia wins.

Nah, this may be a good move for Orban if he is seeking Russian puppet of the year recognition, but no good for Hungary no matter which way it goes

I've been a student of military history since I was a small kid. At this point, Russia would have a difficult time winning if the west completely abandoned Ukraine. And if the Russians did manage to take control of Ukraine, an insurgency would start which would continuously whittle down the Russians. To occupy Ukraine and successfully put down an insurgency would take at least 2.25 million Russian troops.

There is no way around math. In modern times the only way to stop an insurgency is to occupy a country with 50 troops per 1000 population.

The Russian army is in disarray. The poor equipment for the mobiks in Donbas is very bad, and the troops training in Belarus will get a little better equipment, but the signs are that the equipment moving to the Belarus to equip these troops is poorer than what Russia started the war with in February. Trainloads of T-55s have been seen. Those are antiques. Artillery and AA guns built in the 1940s have been seen too.

Russia would not be moving T-55s around unless the newer tanks were in short supply.

The Russians may be holding some of their artillery ammunition reserve behind for a planned offensive, but it's certain they burned through ammunition at a much vaster rate than they were producing it last year and their use of artillery is way down from its peak. The estimates of how much artillery ammunition the Russians had squirreled away and how much was viable (ammunition does become unstable when stored a long time). Some estimates had them exhausting their stored supplies back in the summer while some of the more pessimistic believed they would run out of the old ammunition by the end of 2022.

It's also apparent they bought up any ammunition anyone would sell them. That probably stretched their ability to keep firing artillery for a while longer, but that is not an infinite supply. I believe the only country other than current NATO members that make Russian caliber ammunition are North Korea and China. Probably India makes some. There is evidence NK has sold some ammunition to Russia.

The Russians are currently manufacturing ammunition and they are probably running the factories at maximum capacity, but their maximum production capacity is way below their needs.

Russia has demonstrated that their ability to conduct combat more than about 50 miles from a working rail line is almost non-existent. They started the war short on trucks, and they have fewer of them now. They have been able to fight in Donbas because it has the densest rail network in Ukraine. They completely failed when they had to go off the rail lines in February in the north.

The Russians can make glacially slow progress when they have good rail access and they're willing to lose 1000 people per sq km. At that rate they need to sacrifice many the population of Russia a few times over to capture Ukraine.

The people who believe Russia can win this either don't understand the realities of how wars work, or they have been sold on Russian propaganda, or both. I've never been in the military, but as I said, I know military history. There are a number of people who have pedigrees in this stuff like retired generals Mark Hertling, Ben Hodges, and Mick Ryan, or professional military historians like Phillips O'Brian who have been very in sync with my independent evaluation from the start.

I didn't find any of them until the war was a couple of months old and I started reading Twitter. I concluded Russia had lost by about day 3 of the war.

Russia is losing. The western leaders all know that and know that the only chance Russia has of winning is to stop helping Ukraine. This is a golden opportunity to take down one of the worst players on the world stage on the cheap. A lot of the hardware given to Ukraine is retired reserve stuff from the inventories of the donor countries. Our junk is Ukraine's treasure.

The media makes a lot of hay about ammunition shortages in the west. The stockpiles have been reduced, but there is plenty of ammunition still out there. South Korea has declined to directly give military aid, but they are sitting on a massive stockpile of 155mm ammunition. The US also has a huge supply of cluster munition rounds for the 155mm that it will probably never use again. The former Warsaw pact countries now in NATO have cranked up their ammunition production and are producing a fair amount of 152mm and 122mm ammunition. The Czech Republic mothballed their ammunition factories rather than tear them down so they just dusted them off and restarted production.

The west is not going to abandon Ukraine. There are too many advantages to helping Ukraine.

I want to see Ukraine be able to go on the offensive again and get this war finished, but Ukraine is holding its own with only a very small portion of their army engaged in Donbas now. Russia has thrown over 100,000 troops at Soledar and Bakhmut. The Ukrainians have maybe 10,000 (out of a million mobilized now) defending those towns and the Russians are only able to make very slow progress. Ukraine isn't putting more people there because they don't need it. Ukraine can afford to lose those towns especially if the Russians end up losing many thousands taking them.

To anyone who understands how military actions work the know these battles will be studied for the next 100 years as an example of an absolutely stupid offensive.
 
Could Ukraine not hire ex-US or other trained M1A1 support personnel to handle maintenance and training? Similar to the First American Volunteer Group (Flying Tigers) of WWII. I'd think they could find enough folks to support a small unit of Abrams. Paint sharks faces on the front of the tanks. Very retro and very deadly.

Speaking of old/retro kit, there's a desert full of 'em in Arizona.

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I have a difficult time to trust Western reporting on the war in Ukraine. We are getting all these reports on how badly the Russians are doing and apparently they can't tell their arses from a hole in the ground, the Ukrainian victims seem to be always civilians, and yet the Ukrainians are desperate for ever more Westerm weapons.
The German press is the most irritating. The very journalists who were attacking every arms project in the past and who didn't serve themselves, are fully gung-ho to support Ukraine. Yet there is no universal support among voters to get drawn ever deeper into that mess. What exactly are the Western war aims in Ukraine?
As Poland seems to be so eager to deliver MBTs to Ukraine, why don't they donate some of the Abrams they are buying from the US?
BTW, the British may kindly pipe down. Germany has taken in a million Ukrainian refugees while the UK has taken in all of 100,000. How about a stronger British contribution in that field?
 
I have a difficult time to trust Western reporting on the war in Ukraine. We are getting all these reports on how badly the Russians are doing and apparently they can't tell their arses from a hole in the ground, the Ukrainian victims seem to be always civilians, and yet the Ukrainians are desperate for ever more Western weapons.

It is quite simple. Russia expected to conquer Ukraine in 3 days, exterminate the government, and then enjoy their spoils. That nothing of the sort happened is all the supporting evidence you should need that the Russian military is inept and the UKR military is better than the world judged.

HOWEVER, not folding in 3 days is very different than not losing a war of attrition over time, and that is far different than repelling the invaders
 
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It is quite simple. Russia expected to conquer Ukraine in 3 days, exterminate the government, and then enjoy their spoils. That nothing of the sort happened is all the proof you should need that the Russian military is inept and the UKR military is better than the world judged.

HOWEVER, not folding in 3 days is very different than not losing a war of attrition over time, and that is far different than repelling the invaders
Well, not all military plans succeed. Looking at the success of some military campaigns of the US, from Vietnam to Iraq/Afghanistan, what sort of conclusion would you draw there?
 
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Not sure if this has previously been posted, re Sweden and NATO, and inevitably Erdogan's Turkey, and Orban's Hungary - overall a good review

 
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