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RWD Model 3 acceleration vs <$40k entry luxury sedans

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by Zoomit, Apr 8, 2016.

  1. Zoomit

    Zoomit Part 3 Awaiter

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    The only performance data we have on the Model 3 is the claim that the 0-60 time will be less than 6 seconds for the base rear wheel drive car. On the surface, this seemed about right for the base models of the entry luxury sedans. Those cars generally have a hint at luxury, a hint at technology, and a hint at performance for aspirational buyers looking to step beyond the Camrys and Accords. I hadn't looked at them in detail recently, mainly because all the marketing and media focus on the higher end versions of those cars. So I did a little research and came up with the data, and estimates, in the table below.

    My overall comparison criteria was entry luxury sedans, with base prices in the $35-40k range, and RWD; trying to match the base Model 3. (The A4 was the only car that didn't meet those three criteria. It's base model is FWD, but it belongs in this group, I'd say.)

    What I didn't realize is that every one of those cars now has a turbocharged 2.0L inline 4-cylinder engine in this price range. Over the last 5-10 years these engines have replaced the I6 and V6 engines in the category because they are both efficient and powerful. The downside to any turbo engine is that there is an inherent delay in the power delivery, which is a step back from the more responsive naturally-aspired 6-cylinder engines of the past.

    An electric motor, as many of us know, has a very immediate response, which is quite different than these 2.0L turbos. So while the 0-60 time for Model 3 probably falls in line with it's competition (BMW 328i), I estimate that the rolling start performance of the Model 3 will be quicker than ALL it's competition.

    I describe the relevancy of the rolling start test in this InsideEVs article (The Rolling Start, A Better EV Performance Metric), but the point is that the rolling start acceleration test is a better metric to use to compare electric vehicle acceleration performance against an internal combustion engine vehicle. Basically it replicates the real world responsiveness of a car much better than the 0-60 times. (Also note, the rolling start test has nothing to do with the rollout distance at a drag strip!)

    The rolling start 5-60 mph times for the ICE comparison vehicles are ~0.7 to 1.0+ seconds slower than their respective 0-60 times. The biggest culprit for this discrepancy is probably the turbo lag. We can make a conservative assumption that the Model 3 5-60 time will be 5.8 seconds. If I was optimistic, I'd say the 0-60 will be 5.8 seconds and the 5-60 might be 5.6 seconds. Either way, the average rolling start time in this category is currently about 6.9 seconds. So being at least a full second faster than the average, I'm confident the base Model 3 will feel much more responsive that it's direct ICE competition.

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. Jason Bourne

    Jason Bourne Member

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    #2 Jason Bourne, Apr 9, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2016
    I've had an A4 (2.0T) which I chipped for significantly better performance, and now I have an Infiniti G37x (3.7L V-6 na). Most of my driving is city driving, and I find the Infiniti has more torque with better accessibility. All modern AT cars want to be in the highest gear possible, and at such low RPMs I frequently found myself getting frustrated with the Audi that it needed to downshift, then spool up the turbo in order for me to feel the acceleration I was asking it for.
    I am expecting the Model 3 to be a combination of the benefits of both. It will have the immediate torque at low-mid 'RPM' (even though there aren't RPMs) like a na V-6 but also the torque will remain at higher 'RPMs' like the 2.0T.
     
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  3. Skotty

    Skotty 2014 Model S P85

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    ...and that's going to be the slowest version of the 3.
     
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  4. igotzzoom

    igotzzoom Member

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    Most of the newer GDI turbos have minimal turbo lag. They're tuned for maximum low/midrange torque. Yes, there is a split second of lag, but nothing like the old days where it was "One-one-thousand, two-one-thousand, three-one-thousand....BOOOOOST!!!!!!" I recently drove the second generation Hyundai/Kia 2.0 GDI turbo, and I literally couldn't detect any lag. It had a very beefy low-end torque delivery. They clipped the top-end power a bit to get that, but how most people drive, it was probably the right choice.
     
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  5. Chrisuk83

    Chrisuk83 Member

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    The AWD will obviously be faster than the rwd. BUT Elon said the AWD will be faster than the ones test drove on the revial night, and from the press coments, they were not slow. Id guess the entry level AWD will be Around or under 5 seconds.
     
  6. Zoomit

    Zoomit Part 3 Awaiter

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    #6 Zoomit, Apr 9, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2016
    Very true, igotzzoom. The modern, low inertia turbos do behave much better than the turbos of yore. Yet the data shows their responsiveness is nothing like an electric motor. The ICE cars listed above have 5-60 times that are 15% slower than 0-60.

    The Hyundai Sonata Sport 2.0t, which has the updated GDI turbo engine, has a 0-60 of 8.0 seconds and and 5-60 of 8.1 seconds per C&D instrumented testing: 2015 Hyundai Sonata Sport 2.0T - Instrumented Test. These are very close and does indicate there's little turbo lag. I'll also refer you to the list of cars in the InsideEVs article. You can see a trend with the lower performing cars, the difference between 0-60 and 5-60 times diminishes. Many slow cars have similar times.
     
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  7. FranKim

    FranKim Member

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    I've owned and driven multiple quick cars, Normally aspirated, twin turbos, and supercharged (mostly porsches and AMGs) and I am still amazed every time I accelerate in our Model S. Independent of actual 0-60 times, there is something seat-of-the-pants about smooth, quiet, linear, instant torque that is truly a rush and a joy. We have the base RWD MS and it still "feels" more fun (my opinion of course) to accelerate in than any of my previous quicker sports cars and sport sedans.
     
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  8. Zoomit

    Zoomit Part 3 Awaiter

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    #8 Zoomit, Apr 9, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2016
    Yep, the open question is whether those cars were ACTUALLY quicker or just had lower 0-60 times. Take the Porsche Macan S, which has a very respectable 0-60 time of 4.6 seconds. But it's rolling start time is only 6.0 seconds, slower than the base Model 3 (probably). Unless you're driving the Macan around at 5000 rpm and keeping the turbo spooled up, the Model 3 will actually be the more responsive car.
     
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  9. FranKim

    FranKim Member

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    Great point!

    And then there's the issue of transmission shift times. Even the super quick and slick double clutch Porsche PDK transmission cannot compare with the utter lack of shift points in a single speed EV.
     
  10. DrPhoton

    DrPhoton Member

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    Thanks for the great post! Until people actually drive an EV it's hard to understand the difference between responsiveness of an E and an ICE vehicle.

    I had a situation this week where I arrived at an intersection before a freeway on-ramp. In the right lane (the lane that becomes a freeway on-ramp-only lane once you pass through the intersection) was a city bus. Since the light was red and the lane to the left of the bus was open, I figured I could pull up next to the bus and then pull ahead of the bus and make a legal lane change after pulling through the intersection to enter the freeway.

    While I was stopped at the light a motorcycle pulled up between me and the bus. It wasn't some big slow motorcycle, but one of those fast Japanese bikes. I think the rider was pretty surprised when the light turned green because I out-accelerated him and made it onto the freeway ramp ahead of him. I didn't even fully jam the accelerator to the floor because I didn't initially plan to pull ahead of him - it was just that once the light was green and I found that I was pulling ahead of him I couldn't resist.:)
     
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  11. Justmurr

    Justmurr Member

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    Rolling start is the better metric for sure...more real-world comparison to make I think. I use both highway and city streets during my daily commute but I can only count a handful of times I deliberately gunned it from a stand still vs. the number of times I stomp on it while rolling.

    I mean I used to have fun using the launch feature that I had on my E46 M3 with their fancy SMG transmission...but that was just a fun gimmick.

    Can't wait to have that instant torque feel ....well actually I can wait...I must wait....I will wait.
     
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  12. eloder

    eloder Member

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    Yea, even my Leaf with a 0-60 time over 10s feels very quick at the start. Some nice looking mid-sized luxury cars can't keep up for the first 30mph from a stand-still. The general public who test drive a Model 3 will get the perception they're in a far faster car at legal speeds.
     
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  13. Snowdog

    Snowdog Member

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    #13 Snowdog, Apr 9, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2016
    5-60 Rolling start is just a better real world metric for all cars, not just EV's. It what I always use to compare car performance.

    Because the typical drive-train abusing, drag strip launch is not something I would ever do in my gas cars anyway.

    5-60 is more typical of even a very fast street driving launch. Where you you just floor it.
    I pointed this out in a previous Model S v BMW 328 comparison:
    Model 3 - Comparison to BMW 3 Series Pricing...

    It really does highlight why so many people report EVs feeling faster than the numbers reported by 0-60. It is because in real world driving they are. No one is doing drag strip launches in the real world.

    Even the Base Model 3 is going to be awesomely quick for it's class.
     
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  14. Qball

    Qball Member

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    What's the 0-to-60 for the BMW 335i?
     
  15. Zoomit

    Zoomit Part 3 Awaiter

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    The 335i has been replaced by the 340i and, selling for $50-60k, is not in the same price class as the base Model 3. It's closer to the AWD big battery Model 3.

    C&D got a 340i xDrive with manual to go:
    0-60: 4.9 sec
    5-60: 6.2 sec (!!)

    This 1.3 sec discrepancy is huge and doesn't bode well for the 340i's around town responsiveness.
     
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  16. shrspeedblade

    shrspeedblade Member

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    While the smooth, quiet acceleration is absolutely wonderful, now somebody needs to develop an app that can put sound through the cars speakers to mimic your favorite ICE under hard acceleration.

    I'll always miss the snarl of my 98 M3's inline six! ;)

    But on the weekends, maybe a Ferrari 458 Speciale.

    A little hokey? Sure. Sometimes someone's hokey is someone else's frickin' awesome! :D
     
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  17. igotzzoom

    igotzzoom Member

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    They've tamed the Sonata quite a bit. My 2011 has 274 hp and 0-60 in 6.2. It's definitely a little more laggy than the new one down low, but not objectionably so. The difference in top-end power is noticeable, though (i.e. older one is better). But yes, there is no comparing the power delivery between an ICE (gas or diesel) and an EV. The smoothness and seamlessness simply can't be matched. And on the higher-end EVs (predominantly Tesla) the power simply out-classes comparable ICE models.
     
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  18. Zoomit

    Zoomit Part 3 Awaiter

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    I've owned my '98 E36 M3/4/5 for going on 14 yrs. Admittedly, I don't drive it enough but it does make a very nice sound.

    But here in 2016, that sound reminds me of the past, and the good times I've had, but the whirr of an electric motor sounds like the future that I'm very much looking forward to!
     
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  19. wallet.dat

    wallet.dat Member

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    IIRC some who had ridden in the M3D on reveal night indicate that the acceleration felt like it was certainly under 5 seconds 0-60. The fact that the final versions will be even quicker has me excited :)
     
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  20. Snowdog

    Snowdog Member

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    #20 Snowdog, Apr 10, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2016
    Don't get too carried away. I believe those were performance "P" dual motor prototypes, and the when Elon said the production will be faster, he meant the P versions.

    I would expect the normal dual motor versions to be only slightly faster as they are with the TMS 70 and 70d.

    I expect We will see something like this:

    TM3 60: 5.8s
    TM3 60D: 5.5s
    TM3 80D: 4.9s
    TM3 P80D: 3.9s
     
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