TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker or making a Paypal contribution here: paypal.me/SupportTMC

RWE Tesla Tour

Discussion in 'Video' started by TEG, Oct 3, 2010.

  1. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2006
    Messages:
    17,252
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    #1 TEG, Oct 3, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2016












     
  2. ChargeIt!

    ChargeIt! Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2008
    Messages:
    619
    VERRRY nice find. Thanks TEG !

    Great videos and scenery. Good production. A quick summary of (non-obvious) highlights for non-German speakers:

    First two nights they did not get a full charge at the hotels. When they finally make "Grossglockner" (a high mountain pass) they notice and comment on the fact that the regen puts miles back on the battery faster than their charging sessions ! :biggrin:

    Several intermediate stops seem to last 5 hours for charging. Not sure if that's 32A at 3-phase. (May be Alfred or DPeilow can explain 3-phase charging times ?)

    The boat they take a ride on at Klagenfurt on Day 4 is reported as being electric. :cool:

    I'm not sure they understand Range versus Standard Mode. The three times they got the screen with the warning message to cycle the key to activate final reserve. In other words they seem to have been driving in standard mode. Wonder if they charged in Range Mode.

    Day 6: They made the ferry in Hungary with 2 minutes to spare. Too bad they couldn't plug in while on the ferry.

    Day 7: snacking in the EV ... that should be reserved for "rest" / "charge" times !

    Day 8: 1st charging station for Croatia in its capital of Zagreb (Nikola Tesla statue). And the green BMW is familiar to us !

    Day 10: 1st charging station for Serbia in its capital of Belgrade. Nikola Tesla Museum.


    I noticed a lot of clothing changes in 13 days ... hmm ... wonder what their support vehicle was ?

    Total distance: (she mentions) 4,000km (2,500 miles).
     
  3. AndrewBissell

    AndrewBissell Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    645
  4. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2006
    Messages:
    14,792
    Location:
    CA CA
    Camera person and maybe a sound recordist and a place to store the Roadster top.
     
  5. Alfred

    Alfred Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2009
    Messages:
    215
    Location:
    Zurich
    <<Not sure if that's 32A at 3-phase. (May be Alfred or DPeilow can explain 3-phase charging times ?)...>>
    The Roadster only charges on one phase. When using an MC240, you can charge at most at 30 A, always drawing only on one phase (normally L1). If you have less than 30 A on one phase available, you can use an appropriate connector and you have to dial down the permitted Amps in the car accordingly. Common connectors are: [​IMG]
     
  6. ChargeIt!

    ChargeIt! Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2008
    Messages:
    619
    Thanks, Alfred. Looking at the 1st video, starting around 2:34 it looks like they are NOT even using an MC. Do those stations incorporate a Pilot Signal ? Or does RWE has a special "cable" ? It's the blue one, so I assume 16A at 230V. Maybe like in the USA with MC120 no pilot signal is needed (it's grounded) at 120V, and the car defaults to 15A. (But it's half as fast due to the voltage!) I may have time to review the videos again to see if the use 32A without a MobileCharger.
     
  7. Alfred

    Alfred Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2009
    Messages:
    215
    Location:
    Zurich
    From the cable's thickness I would guess that it can go to 32A and it is indeed a cable I have not seen elsewhere. In Germany also the blue 32 CARA plug would be permitted, but not in Switzerland. In the Video they appear to use the new Mennekes that could technically go also higher than 32A. I asked once where such a cable could be obtained for the Roadster, but I got a no-reply due to "being flooded with enquiries". How he signalling between station and car was resolved (if any) I do not know.
     
  8. RGB

    RGB eRaca

    Joined:
    May 14, 2009
    Messages:
    92
    They ARE using the Mennekes connector. All the RWE Stadions are equipped with it. Trying to charge at one as a "common" Roadster driver you are SOL. Rumors say that RWE has actually hacked the pilot and how the Roadster is communicating, in the lab at least - just hear-say though. Not much to the amusement of TM. Don't think there is any information being sent back and forth though "in real life", yet.
     
  9. AndrewBissell

    AndrewBissell Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    645
    I think it's simpler. Mennekes, Roadster (and for that matter J1772) all use the same signalling protocol. If you plug a cable with a Roadster connector one end and a Mennekes the other (drawing one phase only from the Mennekes source - which is permitted) them the Mennekes source EVSE will signal the Roadster what it can deliver (up to 63A for many of these stations, 32A for others) and the Roadster will draw 60A (latest firmware) or 32A as appropriate. I think this is simply the cable RWE have built. No hacking required.
     
  10. ChargeIt!

    ChargeIt! Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2008
    Messages:
    619
    Thanks ... this info makes a lot of sense. And it explains the 5 hours they referred to several times. (230V * 60A / 300 = 46 miles-per-hour-charged. ) Hope all EU Roadster owners can "grab" a cable like that ...
     
  11. Alfred

    Alfred Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2009
    Messages:
    215
    Location:
    Zurich
  12. ChargeIt!

    ChargeIt! Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2008
    Messages:
    619
    And it mentions that output is 3-phase capable, at 32A, up to 400V (22kW). Is it possible RWE modified the PEM (with or without TM consent or cooperation) to deliver more than a single phase 230V/32A ? And/or modified the cable to provide possibly just higher voltage on a single phase ?
     
  13. eledille

    eledille TMS 85 owner :)

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2010
    Messages:
    535
    Location:
    Oslo, Norway
    If the output is 400V 3-phase, you get 230V single phase between any one of the three lives and neutral.

    If they had hacked a Roadster to charge at 32A 3-phase, it would finish charging in about two hours unless the car was completely empty. At 32A, 230V single phase, a 5-hour charge seems reasonable (from about 30% to full).

    ChargeIt!: three-phase charge times: Calculate the power like this: voltage * current * square_root(3), e.g. 400V * 32A * 1.73 = 22.1 kW. Then divide battery capacity by power to get hours from empty to full, e.g. 53kWh / 22.1 kW = 2.4 hours. The charger will slow down during the first and last 10%, that's why you often see quotes of charging time for an 80% recharge. I don't know how the Tesla charger behaves in this respect.

    If you know how much energy you use per km, then a more useful metric is charging speed. Let's say you use 0.2 kWh per km traveled. Then you get 22.1kW / 0.2kWh/km = 110km per hour of charging at 22.1kW.
     
  14. ChargeIt!

    ChargeIt! Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2008
    Messages:
    619
    Thanks for that eledille !
    For single phase (and miles) my formula says: " V * A / 300 ". In essence the 300 is 300Wh/mile, which is not the energy usage while driving, but the "from-the-wall" energy used for the number of Ideal Range miles charged. It includes all the overheads of charging for ambient temps of up to 85F. (It does not take into account very low temps ... which may require heating of the ESS. At higher than 85F cooling will take some more overhead.)

    So at 230*32/300 = 24.5 miles-per-hour-charged, five hours would charge about 122 miles which is about 50% of a RangeMode charge. But as you indicate the top 10% SOC will be slower. (The bottom 10% charges regular speed.) It's possible they only added 122 miles at the intermediate stops, from about 10% (or less) to 60% (or less) SOC.

    What's the voltage between two phases ?
     
  15. eledille

    eledille TMS 85 owner :)

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2010
    Messages:
    535
    Location:
    Oslo, Norway
    #16 eledille, Oct 5, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2010
    Phase-to-phase: 400V.
    Phase-to-neutral: 230V.

    ChargeIt!: Your formula for single phase is more tuned to the Roadster than mine. 300Wh/mile = 186Wh/km, a more likely number than 200Wh (that was just a guess).

    Three phase formula in mph: phase-to-phase voltage * current / 173
    Three phase formula in km/h: phase-to-phase voltage * current / 107

    I'd round to 175 and 110, the voltage tolerance is rather large anyway.
     
  16. Alfred

    Alfred Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2009
    Messages:
    215
    Location:
    Zurich
    In practice I get about 37 km of ideal range per charge hour in standard mode. (MC240, 30A, around 215 V, depending on location). I have not protocolled as yet the eventual slowdown towards "top-off".
     
  17. ChargeIt!

    ChargeIt! Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2008
    Messages:
    619
    Yup. That's pretty close. ( 30 * 215 / 300 ) * 1.609 = 34.59 or approx 35 km/h (6%-7% conservative). (The formula is a "California" formula up to 85F with 70F average. Cooler temps = faster charging (until heating is needed); higher temps = slower.)
     

Share This Page