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S 60 Range Increasing ith

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by Thomas Allen, Sep 9, 2016.

  1. Thomas Allen

    Thomas Allen Member

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    #1 Thomas Allen, Sep 9, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2016
    Everyone seems to be concerned with decreasing range as their Tesla ages, while mine is moving in the other direction. When I picked up my 2014 MS CPO in May, my 90% was 183 miles. In July it went to 184 miles, and in September it increased to 185 miles. I drive about 1000 miles each month, with the same mix of highway and city. Has anyone else experienced this?
     
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  2. freeewilly

    freeewilly Member

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    I have a late 2013 S60, my 90% was 179 and 100% was 199 miles. During a routine check, Tesla found a air leak on my battery and sent my battery back to Fremont for repair. After I got my battery back, my 90% is 182, and 100% is 202 miles now.
     
  3. AmpedRealtor

    AmpedRealtor Well-Known Member

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    A variation of 2 miles is nothing to write home about. It's within the margin of error.
     
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  4. Rifleman

    Rifleman Now owns 2 Model S's!!!

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    My 2014 S60 is down to 169 @ 90%. My Wife's 2013 S60 is at [email protected] 90%. Sounds like you are doing pretty good.
     
  5. wraithnot

    wraithnot Model S VIN #5785

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    With my 3.5 year old 85 kWh, I find that the rated range for a 100% charge tends to drop after a few months of doing nothing but my daily commute and short weekend trips and tends to rise after a big road trip with lots of deep battery cycles and 100% charges. For example, a 100% charge on July 4th of this year at 76,429 miles only yielded 251 miles. But I got 256 miles for a 100% charge near the end of a recent road trip (with about 83,000 miles on the odometer). Based on reading lots of threads in the battery section of TMC, I interpret this as 1) the battery being better balanced after lots of 100% charges and 2) the battery capacity estimation algorithm giving a more accurate estimate after getting good date from running the battery from higher to much lower than I do during day-to-day usage. I bet you are seeing this increase because you are doing deeper cycles and fully charging more often than the person that owned the car before you.

    I also find temperature can cause the rated range of a 100% charge to vary a bit with warmer ambient temperatures yielding a few extra miles vs. cooler temperatures (especially noticeable when getting a full charge in Las Vegas or Barstow during the summer).
     
  6. BEEZR

    BEEZR Member

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    Have you contacted Tesla regarding your car? To be down 7% off rated range is significant...

    My 2014 CPO has been around 160-163 @ 90% since delivery in late-June. I've been in touch with service and they say the battery is fine (tested at 200 in pre-delivery inspection) but there is something in the firmware that needs to be corrected. You may have a similar issue.
     
  7. scottm

    scottm Active Member

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    If your capacity truly keeps going up, you've discovered the chemical equivalent of perpetual motion.

    Tesla will want to buy your battery back to learn and capitalize on that phenomena!
     
  8. Rifleman

    Rifleman Now owns 2 Model S's!!!

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    The last time it was in for a warranty issue they ran a batter health check, and said it was fine, but I am going to bring the issue up again at its next servicing.
     
  9. BEEZR

    BEEZR Member

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    They told me my battery was fine, too, but that there was some firmware fix that needed to be created and applied. (They diagnosed remotely, too.) My battery does not show that it charges to 100% -- it stopped somewhere in the last 10% -- and not near 200 miles rated range. I was told this is not the battery but something in the way it displays.

    I would ask them if your battery is fine why it is showing 169 @ 90% -- that's only 188 @ 100%. Your wife's is reasonable and what I might accept as normal. Please let me know what you find out.
     
  10. Rediah

    Rediah Member

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    Has anyone found a remedy for the low range on the S60 models? I recently purchased a CPO (2014 S60) which shows [email protected]%. I have checked with my service center multiple times and even called Tesla Customer Support but have been told that the maximum range is calculated based on driving habit. I am not sure what to do and am hoping that someone has "figured out" whether this is a real issue or just expected range for the batteries.
     
  11. AmpedRealtor

    AmpedRealtor Well-Known Member

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    That's completely untrue and I wish Tesla would stop promoting this myth!

    The range shown on the display is your EPA rated range. Rated Range shows EPA 5-cycle numbers and Ideal Range shows EPA 2-cycle numbers for my 2013 Model S. Only the projected range in the Energy App uses your driving habits over the last 5, 15, or 30 miles depending on which option you have selected.

    When it comes to potential battery issues and range loss, I find that Tesla first tries to make you go away by giving you a canned response. You'll get farther if you push the issue, escalate to service manager, etc. Once they see you are serious and your range loss was sudden, they will dig deeper. Usually when this happens, they find one or more failed battery modules.

    Keep pushing it.
     
  12. TexasEV

    TexasEV Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it's intentional misinformation, I think it reflects that some front line employees are poorly trained (even more so than a year or two ago) and don't know what they're talking about. There's a thread here somewhere about stupid things Tesla employees have said. It seems they're adverse to saying "I don't know", or "I'll find out", so they say the first thing that pops into their head whether it's correct or not.
     
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  13. BEEZR

    BEEZR Member

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    What part are you commenting on that is completely untrue? Thanks.

    I've had this issue for more than a year now (CPO, June 2016) and have been pursuing them through various channels:
    • My displayed range is approx 148 @ 90% and 165 @ 100%... Actual is lower.
    • First the local service center/manager, who in July 2016 said the battery checks out and it's a firmware issue that needed fixing. No ETA. By January 2017, after regular communications, he eventually said his hands were tied and Fremont wouldn't let him try to swap the battery to see if anything changed.
    • Jan 2017 I sent a letter to Tesla per the warranty - no response. When I asked the local service people again a few months ago they basically said that I should do what I needed to do (e.g. hire a lawyer)...
    • I went through the WA State Attorney General to enforce the warranty. They sent a letter to Tesla... Tesla replied (a month+ late) and said, basically, this is within spec for battery degradation. And that my Wh/mi is higher than average for the fleet -- so it's my fault, not theirs...
      • Note: It was a full year after I raised the issue that "degradation" was first mentioned by Tesla. They also said they would seek an amicable resolution.
      • Note 2: At full charge (100%) car displays around 165 mi range (not 200...) but actual turns out to be about 130 miles -- I can't see how either of these numbers is within spec.
    • July 2017 New Service Manager now revisiting the case is having me cycle the battery -- charge to 100%, deplete to under 10% for several weeks to see if anything changes. I've cycled six times thus far, no real change.
    Tesla's letter to our state AG also raised points about usage of the car before I bought it (June 2016). Previous owner was in Florida and put 50k miles in 2 years. However, when you ask Tesla about history of any CPO car (service, maintenance) the response is typically that's not information they will share. But the fact is Tesla knows the state of the car and battery for each CPO -- they have the logs, they can deduce what actual range is and if there's been degradation -- yet they still promote the car with the EPA rated range (208 in my case for 2014 production). At delivery I was told there should be little to no degradation, maybe 5%, but the guy was guessing.

    Tesla's letter and my service manager also quoted the warranty which states loss of battery energy or power is not covered. It also says the battery will experience "gradual" loss with time and use. That word is intentionally in there...

    I'm hopeful that our new service manager will help advocate and solve the problem. If not, the response letter from Tesla opens the door for a lawyer to draw out some information that perhaps Tesla doesn't want to share, such as (1) what the degradation and expected range of my car was in June 2016 when I purchased (and why they would not disclose if it was not reasonably close to advertised/rated), and (2) what is the "normal range" of battery degradation and how do you define "gradual" loss? I am sure Tesla is not interested in publishing that data, but if they're claiming my experience is within range we can compel them to prove it if it comes to that.

    Cheers.
     
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  14. sorka

    sorka Active Member

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    This is 100% false. EPA rated range takes none of your driving history or habits into account. Period.
     
  15. AmpedRealtor

    AmpedRealtor Well-Known Member

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    #15 AmpedRealtor, Aug 5, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
    Sorry, I was referring to the range estimate being based on your driving style. That part is untrue. Tesla employees, unfortunately, often say things that aren't technically true. The rated and ideal ranges are each determined by a fixed equation. The Energy App projected range is based on driving style, that's the only one, but it doesn't show on your instrument cluster. I believe Tesla employees are confusing the projected range in the energy app with the EPA range that gets displayed.

    Tesla's resistance doesn't make much sense to me. Others have been given the same response initially, but upon escalation Tesla has always done further investigation on the battery and caught issues that were there. Perhaps their policy is different with CPOs, I don't know, but it shouldn't be. The warranty is the same.

    Don't talk about "actual mileage" in your car. That confuses the issue and opens the door for Tesla to claim your higher Wh/mi usage. If this ever ends up in front of a judge and jury, they might think that's significant to your case even though it isn't. What matters is that your displayed range is at least 20% below what was advertised at the time you purchased your vehicle, and that difference was not disclosed to you.

    A simple analogy would be buying a used gasoline car where the vehicle had a 20% smaller gas tank. The dealer advertised the manufacturer's specified range, but did not disclose to you that the particular vehicle you were buying had a 20% smaller gas tank. I'd be miffed.
     
  16. BEEZR

    BEEZR Member

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    Thanks -- this is good advice.

    Are you saying the EPA range is displayed? So at full charge a car should be 208 (or whatever applies to that config) until there is some energy loss or degradation? That does not seem to be Tesla's position.

    They are consistent, from service advisor to service manager to corporate resolution specialist that the range displayed on the dashboard is an "estimate" and that after an over-the-air firmware update "to update and improve the range estimation algorithm, we [Tesla] are confident that the display in the vehicle now accurately conveys the vehicle's estimated range range based on driving habits." (Emphasis mine.)
     
  17. BEEZR

    BEEZR Member

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    On a related note, I would expect to get close to 60kWh of energy from my battery, minus some energy loss/degradation over time and use, regardless of Wh/mi usage. Perhaps that is the more relevant number to show actual of the battery rather than the calculated rated range. However, over the past two weeks as I've cycled the battery down to below 10% and then charge full to 100%, my kWh of usage has been 40-42. It varies and is not trending up... :mad:
     
  18. Lanber

    Lanber Member

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    Only way to measure with some accuracy is to charge 100% then drive slowly untill it stops. That`s likely 3kwh below car reporting 0 range.

    When you park car you have some consumption to keep everything going, vampire drain its commenly called.

    Also if you use large amount of power when driving, ie drive fast or accelerate with a vengence that generates heat in the battery, thats energy being lost to heat that dosent show on consumption. Same with full regen braking, that generates heat in battery too.

    My 85 battery reports having 75kwh available now and of that 71.2kwh are from 100%-0 then I have 3.8kwh below 0 before car goes into anti bricking.

    Charge when you can, not when you have to
     
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  19. BEEZR

    BEEZR Member

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    How do you know this for your battery?
     
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  20. eAdopter

    eAdopter Member

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    Has any 40 or 60 owner successfully convinced Tesla to acknowledge that the range reductions are a problem, and hopefully, were able to correct them? My range is down by about 14% after 71k miles and 51 months. All of the range reductions were downward steps experienced after software "upgrades", not gradual/curved reductions. In other words, they were stair-stepped (intentional) reductions from 147 to 127.
     
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