S driver claims his parked car moved on its own and hit parked trailer

[whitex]

This is simply not true. Summon works just great for auto-parking in the common case of a narrow garage opening.

Provided you garage has perfectly flat walls, no shelves, nothing on the floor, nothing hanging, yes. You still need enough space on the driver's side to get to the plug though.

Oh, I forgot! Without Summon, you can drive off without unplugging your happy Tesla and it will auto-unplug itself. Silly me.

Not at all. My point was if you have to walk next to the car to unplug it, or walk after the car to plug it in, why not just drive it yourself? Why would I walk into the garage, unplug the car, than rather than get into the car I walk outside into the rain waiting for the car to pull out and hoping it doesn't hit something too. If your argument is that summon parks better than you, then you must have an uncommonly perfect garage for that, or your parking ability is... shall we say "lacking"? Or are you suggesting that once you get summon, you don't plug-in at home at all so that you can summon the car, and instead charge at a local supercharger?

There is a reason why Tesla warns about using this feature at your own risk. The current generation sensors are insufficient for this feature to reliably work autonomously.

 

[Canuck]

Now the story has made front page news, at least on www.sfgate.com... The driver can dispute all they want but the logs and the data don't lie, people do.

The end blurb about the what if game with the car hitting a child is more than just a bit ridiculous. We all know, at least those of us that have used summon, the sensors are very adept to picking up objects it can see and then stopping. No doubt a human would have triggered the ultra sonics to stop the car.

Ugh...

Jeff

Do you think it's "ridiculous" to suggest that a child could be sitting on a platform above the sensors, with legs dangling over and be it? Or worse, his head is leaning over the edge of the trailer, with his body lying on the trailer, perhaps looking under the trailer, since he's playing with a friend who is underneath but at the far end -- too far, however, for the low sensors to detect. I can come up with many more scenarios for accidents that are not ridiculous at all. Given the nature of my profession (insurance defence), which I have been doing for over 25 years, I've seen countless types of accidents. One thing I know for certain, if an accident can happen, it will happen, and sometimes it will be in the most bizarre and unimaginable ways you can think of. Accidents can never be fully prevented, even with the exercise of reasonable care. But a duty of care is owed to take reasonable care to ensure that reasonably foreseeable accident are prevented (the common-law test for negligence).

Thus, the question that arises here is whether Tesla has exercised reasonable care in allowing the car to move on its own with a very large, unaccounted for, area just above the sensors. It certainly seems reasonably foreseeable to me that there are a number of situations where the sensors can miss objects above them, like what happened in this accident. Telling people to watch their car move as a fail-safe causes me concern. Also, fixing this problem appears to be relatively inexpensive and easy -- just integrate a camera into the summons feature that sits at the rear view mirror area, where the driver of a vehicle looks from, and the problem is solved.

I wonder if the driver read my post #49 above and that is the reason he mentioned a child being hit? I sure hope not since I think he is likely to blame (speculation only without enough facts) and using a child injury/death to further his own personal goals seems very wrong to me.

However, I'm not taking sides in this debate between him and Tesla. I'm just pointing out what seems to an obvious defect with the summons feature that needs to be fixed with new hardware, which I'm certain is coming.

 

[brianman]

Not at all. My point was if you have to walk next to the car to unplug it, or walk after the car to plug it in, why not just drive it yourself? Why would I walk into the garage, unplug the car, than rather than get into the car I walk outside into the rain waiting for the car to pull out and hoping it doesn't hit something too.

Try parking in a garage where there isn't enough room to open the driver's door.

 

[whitex]

We all know, at least those of us that have used summon, the sensors are very adept to picking up objects it can see and then stopping.

Ummm... very adept to picking up objects... but big rig trailer doesn't qualify as an object that should be detected? Come on, I've played with the sensors around the car, had my old son walking around the car, and there are plenty of blind spots. Have you seen the duffle bag demo from Consumer reports? Think kid instead of a bag.

 

[whitex]

Try parking in a garage where there isn't enough room to open the driver's door.

How do you walk to plug/unplug the car?

 

[brianman]

How do you walk to plug/unplug the car?

The back has room, not the sides. (Two cars in garage.)

 

[whitex]

The back has room, not the sides. (Two cars in garage.)

How did you park it before summon? Also, just a tip from my own experience. With an EV, you can back into a garage (no stinking up the garage) while the other car goes front in. This way whatever space is needed for the driver of the other car to get out is also usable to the EV driver. I've been doing it for years, with a hybrid before the Tesla.

 

[brianman]

How did you park it before summon?

I didn't. Car #2 was parked outside until Summon became available.

 

[chillaban]

Incorrect. This is not the default, and to my recollection never has been.

Maybe we are mistaking the meaning of "default" (you do have to enable Summon first in settings before you get this feature at all), but double-tap park + get out = the car will begin moving forwards in 3 seconds.

Per the Model S manual:

While sitting in Model S with the vehicle powered on, double press the Park gear.

The instrument panel displays a message indicating that Summon is engaged and the touchscreen displays a popup window. The default direction is for Model S to move forward into the parking space. Touch Reverse if you want Model S to back into the parking space.


This Youtube video demonstrates: Double-tapping Park alone activates Summon AutoPark. You do not need to press anything more.

 

[brianman]

Maybe we are mistaking the meaning of "default" (you do have to enable Summon first in settings before you get this feature at all), but double-tap park + get out = the car will begin moving forwards in 3 seconds.

And you have to disable the dead man default. So, yes, there are two settings that half to be toggled from the "Default state of car at delivery (at once Updated)" to enable the double-tap feature. Both of them having warnings and information spelled out, IIRC.

The implication was that "some Joe" might buy a Model S and wreck it using "the default settings" by triggering Summon. This is incorrect.

 

[jeffro01]

Do you think it's "ridiculous" to suggest that a child could be sitting on a platform above the sensors, with legs dangling over and be it?

I think we're saying the same thing, just differently. My point is\was that the way summon works and how it uses the ultra sonics, it would have been impossible to "run over" a kid, or an adult. The use of the "kid card" is completely inappropriate and I look it as how someone who doesn't know anything about Tesla would view it, "OMG the car can run over kids unattended???"...

I'm not disputing your fringe scenarios as perfectly valid examples, my point was about the suggestion by the owner in question that the car would have simply ran over someone standing there or running in front, etc.., would have resulted in the car simply plowing right on through them.

It's not about how "we" here at TMC understand and use this feature, its about how the general public (most of whom know very little about Tesla) may perceive such a statement.

Jeff

 

[chillaban]

And you have to disable the dead man default. So, yes, there are two settings that half to be toggled from the "Default state of car at delivery (at once Updated)" to enable the double-tap feature. Both of them having warnings and information spelled out, IIRC.

The implication was that "some Joe" might buy a Model S and wreck it using "the default settings" by triggering Summon. This is incorrect.

Yes, I totally agree with what you said. You have to turn the feature on at both levels (Summon as well as non-deadman switch Summon), which makes you read through two levels of boilerplates. On top of that, activating double-park Summon clearly says "Autopark Initiated" on the instrument cluster and the nav screen shows a modal diagram with a gigantic image of your Tesla and a blue forward arrow.

If Random Joe is paying attention, it is blatantly obvious what will happen unless he taps the giant Cancel button that's virtually the size of a smartphone.

 

[RogerHScott]

The car will steer to adjust and center itself in the garage, not just a straight line

Sorry, no. The car has no idea where you want it to go, other than in a straight line. If in its effort to go in a straight line it encounters an obstacle it will steer to avoid it. If it is more than the minimum clearance distance from the garage walls it will not center itself. If it starts going in at an angle it will continue at that angle until it encounters an obstacle.

 

[RogerHScott]

[forward] is not the default, and to my recollection never has been

Are you saying reverse is the default, or that there is no default. Those are the only two alternatives. And if there's no default, this entire thread is impossible since an active choice would have to have been made.

 

[RogerHScott]

Provided you garage has perfectly flat walls, no shelves, nothing on the floor, nothing hanging, yes.

It has shelves, but not in the vicinity of where the car parks. It has nothing on the floor where the car parks, but I'd hope that was true for any garage. It has things hanging, but not in a way that interferes.

My point was if you have to walk next to the car to unplug it, or walk after the car to plug it in, why not just drive it yourself? Why would I walk into the garage, unplug the car, than rather than get into the car I walk outside into the rain waiting for the car to pull out and hoping it doesn't hit something too. If your argument is that summon parks better than you, then you must have an uncommonly perfect garage for that, or your parking ability is... shall we say "lacking"?

The choice to use Summon and the choice to get in the car in the garage vs. outside are independent choices, and three out of the four combinations make sense for various people at various times. Even when I have to unplug first (I don't charge every single day) I prefer to stand behind it while it backs out, just to watch for problems. But when it is raining I get in in the garage -- but still have it do the backing out. I don't think I have an "uncommonly perfect" garage -- do you really have enough evidence to know that your garage isn't uncommonly imperfect? I've seen enough posts from others who find auto-parking in their own garage useful to believe that my situation isn't all that rare. As for my parking ability, as I explained in another thread the reason to use Summon is not for the everyday, typical case when I could certainly do an adequate job myself. It is for that one day when I'm tired, in a hurry, and distracted and left to my own devices would put a multi-hundred-dollar scrape down the side. My experience so far is that the failure mode of auto-park is not to hit anything but rather to give up or "fail" (harmlessly). Even then, nine times out of ten simply asking it to try again from exactly where it left off is all it takes to get it to complete.

 

[msnow]

Sorry, no. The car has no idea where you want it to go, other than in a straight line. If in its effort to go in a straight line it encounters an obstacle it will steer to avoid it. If it is more than the minimum clearance distance from the garage walls it will not center itself. If it starts going in at an angle it will continue at that angle until it encounters an obstacle.

Umm, when the wheels need to be turned to make those adjustments we call that *steering* NOT going in a "straight line". My car centers itself between our other car and a post. If the other car isn't there it *centers* between the post and the wall. Sorry but that's the way it works.

 

[Tam]

The big question for me is not whether or how it was activated (accidentally or otherwise) but why once activated did it hit anything?

I think your question was answered but just in case.

1) Tesla log showed that the parking stalk was pressed twice which activated the summon. Whether it was the driver's intention or not, but the log recorded that it was not activated by a fob or while the driver was outside of the car but while the driver was still inside the car, in total control of the car and the action of pressing the parking stalk twice was done by somebody.

2) As to once activated, how can the Tesla system be so blind to something hanging just above it?

My speculation is because it has to do with cost. You pay $2,000 for the WHOLE Tesla system while Google one SINGLE part alone, LIDAR, costs $75,000.

With $2,000 feature, there are many limitations and restrictions that you can read from Tesla's disclaimer.

As long as we are willing to reject the high cost of LIDAR, we just have to put up with Tesla's many restrictions.

 

[brianman]

Are you saying reverse is the default, or that there is no default. Those are the only two alternatives. And if there's no default, this entire thread is impossible since an active choice would have to have been made.

Misquoting people is a bad idea. If you want clarification, ask for it. But don't introduce a new misquote and expect a useful response.

 

[brianman]

My experience so far is that the failure mode of auto-park is not to hit anything but rather to give up or "fail" (harmlessly). Even then, nine times out of ten simply asking it to try again from exactly where it left off is all it takes to get it to complete.

Ditto.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Are you saying reverse is the default, or that there is no default. Those are the only two alternatives. And if there's no default, this entire thread is impossible since an active choice would have to have been made.

You are putting words in his mouth. He said "this" is not the default, not that "forward" is not the default. "This" refers to double tapping the park button to activate autopark. By default this does not activate autopark, rather you have to change two settings for it to do so.