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S90D owners only - Watts per mile

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by Boatguy, Sep 19, 2016.

?

What's your average Watts / mile?

  1. <240

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. 241-250

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. 251-260

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. 261-270

    2.9%
  5. 271-280

    5.9%
  6. 281-290

    14.7%
  7. 291-300

    17.6%
  8. 301-310

    17.6%
  9. 311-320

    11.8%
  10. 320 +

    29.4%
  1. Boatguy

    Boatguy Member

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    There has been some discussion in the 90% charge thread about EPA versus real world miles. EPA is what Tesla advertises and is what is used to calculate rated miles. Based on my own measurements over 5,000 miles, the EPA number for the S90D is 273 W/mi. My own consumption is higher so my actual range is about 10% less than the rated miles shown on the dash and about 13% less than what I expected when I purchased my car.

    The discussion would benefit from knowing what the curve looks like for S90D owners. Is it centered on 273, or do the majority of drivers experience something much different than the EPA test cycle?

    Many owners never use their Trip B and it reflects their average consumption for all miles driven. That number would be great, but use whatever you think is honestly representative of your overall driving experience.

    Please, only S90D, no performance or ludicrous.

    Thanks!
     
  2. PtG62901

    PtG62901 Member

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    Lead foot test? City vs highway? My sample size is very small so far.:)
     
  3. wdolson

    wdolson Active Member

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    Living on a hill doesn't help. I get much closer to 273 when driving on flat terrain. My lifetime average since June is 316 Wh/Mi.
     
  4. msnow

    msnow Active Member

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    345 - I year old.
     
  5. TLej

    TLej Little-Known Member

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    Using my numbers from this past summer (my first with the car), I'm right around 270 (168Wh/km). If I throw winter driving in it's much, much higher but I don't think the winter numbers are a fair benchmark. Not quite double the power use when running with full heat at -30C, but pretty close. To be expected though, in my opinion.
     
  6. liuping

    liuping Active Member

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    The rated range line on the center console energy graph for my 90D is at 295. I assume that's the number used to compute Rated Miles for my version of the Model S 90D.

    I know the newer 90D's have higher range, so maybe they are using the 273 W/mile number?
     
  7. Boatguy

    Boatguy Member

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    No, the energy graph line used for projected miles is not the same as EPA (though it should probably be). For example my energy graph uses 290 W/mi. The best way to measure it is the trip meter with more miles on it and whatever W/mi it is displaying.
     
  8. Boatguy

    Boatguy Member

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    I also live on a hill. Assuming you normally charge to 90%, then going down the hill you regen, though not of course 100% of what you use going up the hill. But hill's are part of reality.

    The point of this is to reverse engineer the median. Tesla knows where it is, but we'll have to arrive at it with a much smaller sample of empirical data.
     
  9. wdolson

    wdolson Active Member

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    The problem is you don't get all that energy back. I have a sort of up hill both directions situation. We have to go up hill a little before going down. By the time I reach the crest of the hill leaving home, my Wh/Mi usually says around 1200 Wh/Mi, though it's only 0.2 miles. The best I've been able to do is get down to 80 Wh/Mi at the bottom of the hill and normal is around 180 Wh/Mi.

    Going up and down hills, you will always use more energy than if you're staying on flat ground.
     
  10. msnow

    msnow Active Member

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    @Boatguy - I'm not sure this survey, even if you got 50 or more responses, is going to prove or disprove the premise (below) that most people will experience something different than the EPA test data. To do that they would have to use the same or similar speeds, weather, altitudes, temperatures and other environmentals in both city and highway driving as EPA does and the reality is that just like ICE cars most people just don't drive to the standard. Do you agree or am I missing something?

    "The discussion would benefit from knowing what the curve looks like for S90D owners. Is it centered on 273, or do the majority of drivers experience something much different than the EPA test cycle?"
     
  11. No2DinosaurFuel

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    #11 No2DinosaurFuel, Sep 20, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2016
    No one ever gets EPA miles. Just like the European standard, the EPA is very optimistic. I usually just use 90% of what EPA say because rarely do I hit their numbers.

    If you want more range just be light on the pedal and you'll get EPA, but honestly who in this day and age actually does that except for the few outliers.
     
    • Like x 1
  12. CleanPower

    CleanPower Member

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    My lifetime average after 1 year and 12,000 miles is 315 wh/mi.
     
  13. liuping

    liuping Active Member

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    The line is supposed to be to get the Rate Miles range. That is the same as the EPA range when new, but not as the batteries degrade. I suspect the EPA rating are for brand new cars, but maybe they should take into account average first year degradation.

    I the car showed 284 RM when new (which was the unofficial EPA estimate for the 90D when it first came out). My RM is now 273 miles, and has been for the last 6 months and about 7000 miles, so it seems to have established there.
     
  14. Sugacookie

    Sugacookie Member

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    Less then a month old, no long trips, mainly driving to work in slow traffic. Avg w/m i would estimate 270, lowest 30 mi avg has been 260.
     
  15. NikeWings

    NikeWings Member

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    330 W/m lifetime @ ~6500 miles and I'm loving every punchy & chillaxin' watt of it.
    Not trying to achieve any special result except joy.
     
    • Like x 2
  16. ColBatGuano

    ColBatGuano Member

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    I've got 7,200 miles and a good mix of local with highway road trip and my average is right on 290 Wh/m. I got the car in July and two days after delivery went on a 5k mile road trip. The cooler weather and constant speed driving were delivering closer to 270-275 Wh/m. Local driving is much shorter distances, most days are in the 30 mile range and will have two long parking periods which means when I start out the battery/motors are cold and the car is hot. My commute is a triangle around a hill so two starts are climbs and one downhill to home. Less than ideal but still knocking down 295+/- most days, with stop and go and two 70mph zones in that commute I'm pretty happy with the performance. I've done plenty of 0-60+ demos. For the most part I drive the same way I've always driven, smooth and steady.
     
  17. NeilErdwien

    NeilErdwien Member

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    My lifetime is 328 Wh/mi over 5338 miles. Most of that is interstate highway driving at 75-80 mph.
     
  18. pnungesser

    pnungesser Member

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    I received my 90D in April and I now have over 8k on the car. Mixed driving in the mountains of NC and interstate at 75mph, I often drive from here to Asheville, about 40 mi and 1000' climb. When I get there I'm running 330WH/mi. By the time I get back home it's always returned to less than 300 for the trip. For the life of the car I've averaged just under 300. Yes I've not had a winter yet, but I do keep the AC on about 66 most of the time. I almost always get very close to the rated miles in actual driving. The RM indicator is much more accurate for me than the trip planner which scares my wife to death. If the RM is more than my miles to destination plus buffer, I always make it easily. Hope this helps.
     
  19. Boatguy

    Boatguy Member

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    Clearly the data thus far says that S90D owners have different driving habits than those modeled by the EPA, so we agree on that.

    Sure, nobody worries to much about reaching the EPA numbers in an ICE because there is a gas station on every corner. The EPA numbers are used just for comparison.

    The purpose of the poll was to prove/disprove my assertion in another thread that Tesla over commits and under delivers on range. This was based on a) my experience with a BMW i3 which after two years reliably delivers more range than was promoted by BMW at the time of my purchase and b) early test drives of the Chevy Bolt by multiple members of the automobile press who all had not trouble extracting more range than Chevy is promoting in its advertising. The 2017 BMW i3 has an EPA rating of 97mi, but my 2014 with a 33% smaller battery routinely gets 85 so it seems likely that in the real world BMW buyers will easily experience more like 115. The i3 is overpriced, but BMW's credibility is intact.

    The data in this poll thus far says that our tiny sample of S90D owners are getting less range than was promoted by Tesla when they purchased their car. The overarching point is that Tesla knows the buyers won't get the range that is being advertised because they have the real data from 100,000 cars. Tesla could easily promote the car by saying something like "EPA rated range of 294, but our experience is that most MS owners see about 10% less".

    I want to see Tesla succeed, but building a reputation of over committing and under delivering is not the path to success. M3 owners will be much more mainstream than MS/MX buyers. If somebody tells them to expect 220 miles of range, and their experience is 200, while Bolt owners are told to expect 238 and routinely get 250, that's going to be a big problem for Tesla's credibility and sales.

    There is a folklore belief in the "first mover" advantage. But the reality is that the dominant company is not usually the first, or even the second to enter the market. PC's is obvious, nobody from the first generation is still in business except Apple and their PC market share is less than 10%. Microsoft Office is dominant and its various components were introduced about 5yrs after others already "owned" the market for word processing and spreadsheets. Excel was actually Microsoft's second spreadsheet product. Oracle was not the first database, Amazon was not the first online retailer, iPhone was not the first smartphone, etc. etc. Tesla could easily become a footnote in the transition from ICE to EV.

    Credibility is important and EM/Tesla are building a reputation as talk big, deliver smaller and later. Sure EM's charming and that work's great with investors, but customers, especially those with choices, expect to receive what they are told when they buy the product.
     
    • Like x 1
  20. liuping

    liuping Active Member

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    I've never seen ANY car company say their cars get less mileage in the real world than EPA estimates. I don't see any reason for Tesla to start that now.

    I don't get EPA range, but I don't drive close to EPA style. I launch from stops frequently with full acceleration. I typically drive with the flow of traffic on the free way (usually around 80-85 when traffic is light). No car get EPA numbers under those conditions.

    If I stick to 60-65 and accelerate in the boring way my previous cars did, I can easily get the rated range on my Model S. But what is the fun in that. I have solar panels that cover my electric usage, so there is no reason to try to maximize mileage day to day.

    Now if you want to suggest the EPA change their rating system to include a rating for "sprited" driving (85 MPH freeway driving, jackrabbit starts, etc), and all cars get the number listed for comparison, I'd be all for it. But calling out Tesla only make little sense.
     
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