State based EV road user charge (Overturned 18/10/23)

[Vostok]

I tend to feel that road usage taxes for non-commercial vehicles are inherently regressive, and it should instead be funded out of general revenue. It seems like shorter commutes go hand-in-hand with more expensive real estate.

That’s the biggest problem with a usage tax. Just imagine if most EVs were driven in regional areas - Nationals MPs would be having apoplectic fits. They would be insisting the rate to be zero in regional areas, or a lot smaller. Which would then see a regional population boom, as people register their cars at false home addresses in Ouyen.

And western Sydney votes, which the Liberals covets the most, would be at risk given their long commutes, so they would be opposed.

But while EVs are seen as only being driven by a small number of inner-city virtue-signalling elites, then a usage tax is seen as good and fit punishment by some.

I’m not completely opposed to a road usage tax but it should be universal and has these problems that would need to be solved in a way that does not create a whole new bucket of regression, distortion, and loopholes.

I’m way more in favour of a pollution tax.

 

[GrimRe]

I’m way more in favour of a pollution tax.

I'm also 100% in favour of this. However wouldn't this just be twisted into a "tax for the poor" as its generally the older/cheaper cars that are more polluting?

It would probably need to be offset with a cash for clunkers type program to incentivise people to dump their unsafe polluting older cars with new/second hand with less CO2 g/KM emissions.

The LCT should also be overhauled. If you are buying a new vehicle that's expensive and highly polluting then you should be paying A LOT more tax to offset your pollution.

For example, all cars are rated a certain amount of CO2 per KM, so we could do a pollution tax table:

$0 per gram for every gram up to 100g plus
$150 per gram for every gram over 101g up to 150g plus
$200 per gram for every gram over 150g up to 200g plus
$250 per gram for every gram over 200g

So if you are buying an Audi Q8 with 230 g/km you'd be paying an "LCT" of (0*100)+(150*49)+(200*49)+(250*32) = $25,150
Or a Toyota Yaris at 98 g/km you'd be paying an "LCT" of $0 as its under 100g of CO2/km

Diesel emissions is another thing. We should just ban it outright.

 

[PC__LoadLetter]

I'm also 100% in favour of this. However wouldn't this just be twisted into a "tax for the poor" as its generally the older/cheaper cars that are more polluting?

It would probably need to be offset with a cash for clunkers type program to incentivise people to dump their unsafe polluting older cars with new/second hand with less CO2 g/KM emissions.

Yeah, umm, I grew up poor, so I have a bit of experience here.

We got hand-me-down cars from other family members, and most certainly didn't have the cash or credit to go out and pick up a newer second-hand car. If we got cash for clunkers on a car we got for free as goodwill, it'd have been awkward keeping the cash. They could have given it up themselves and pocketed the cash themselves. And as such, they'd have less reason to help us out when things went downhill.

You might occasionally have the cash to buy an older used car if you anticipated an insane repair bill at pink slip time, but that's all. Cash for clunkers schemes set a floor price on second-hand cars, meaning you need more cash up front to pick one up, and you won't have it, as it'll take weeks after you dispose of the old one before you get paid. And how do you get around for those weeks? Bus services in the poorer & less-established parts of town are usually awful. Used car dealers might have a scheme to get paid sooner & apply that to a car sale, but that sure doesn't help at private sales (which is how you get cheap cars).

Plus they encourage sellers to jack up the price a little.

All taxation on cars is regressive. If you want to fund roads, fund them through property or income taxes, and maybe add a per-kg surcharge on annual car and truck rego (which in NSW we already have - making my first Model 3 rego renewal a little more expensive than I was otherwise used to). And cut the fuel excise in half, saying that it's still important to contribute to the health system, but it shouldn't be seen as contributing to the road system, if it ever did.

 

[Shallowal]

Diesel emissions is another thing. We should just ban it outright.

Typical inner city Yuppie remark. How about putting down your smashed avocado and have a quick look outside your inner city walls. You'll quickly see that rural folks have a great need for non-petrol engines. If country folk had to rely on petrol, our national fuel bills would be through the roof, just like the petrol vapour, never mind the human carnage in petrol fires. Heavy haulage and large machinery would be using 30-50% more fuel.
Even in countries that dont 'Do' retail diesel, all of the heavy industry is diesel for efficiency reasons..

 

[GrimRe]

Yeah, umm, I grew up poor, so I have a bit of experience here.

We got hand-me-down cars from other family members, and most certainly didn't have the cash or credit to go out and pick up a newer second-hand car. If we got cash for clunkers on a car we got for free as goodwill, it'd have been awkward keeping the cash. They could have given it up themselves and pocketed the cash themselves. And as such, they'd have less reason to help us out when things went downhill.

You might occasionally have the cash to buy an older used car if you anticipated an insane repair bill at pink slip time, but that's all. Cash for clunkers schemes set a floor price on second-hand cars, meaning you need more cash up front to pick one up, and you won't have it, as it'll take weeks after you dispose of the old one before you get paid. And how do you get around for those weeks? Bus services in the poorer & less-established parts of town are usually awful. Used car dealers might have a scheme to get paid sooner & apply that to a car sale, but that sure doesn't help at private sales (which is how you get cheap cars).

Plus they encourage sellers to jack up the price a little.

All taxation on cars is regressive. If you want to fund roads, fund them through property or income taxes, and maybe add a per-kg surcharge on annual car and truck rego (which in NSW we already have - making my first Model 3 rego renewal a little more expensive than I was otherwise used to). And cut the fuel excise in half, saying that it's still important to contribute to the health system, but it shouldn't be seen as contributing to the road system, if it ever did.

somebody needs to pay for the damage done by pollution. Why shouldn’t it be at least a contribution by the person who buys the vehicle that pollutes?

Typical inner city Yuppie remark. How about putting down your smashed avocado and have a quick look outside your inner city walls. You'll quickly see that rural folks have a great need for non-petrol engines. If country folk had to rely on petrol, our national fuel bills would be through the roof, just like the petrol vapour, never mind the human carnage in petrol fires. Heavy haulage and large machinery would be using 30-50% more fuel.
Even in countries that dont 'Do' retail diesel, all of the heavy industry is diesel for efficiency reasons..

Woah talk about triggered... I’m sorry if this fact offends you but diesel emissions are carcinogenic.

If you bush folk want to keep burning diesel please by all means... just keep it away from king street in Newtown. I’m sick of sitting at my favourite cafe and ruining my smashed avo and piccolo breakfast with the smell of diesel fumes!

 

[PC__LoadLetter]

somebody needs to pay for the damage done by pollution. Why shouldn’t it be at least a contribution by the person who buys the vehicle that pollutes?

Do you plan to take the money and burn it at a shrine to Gaia? Is a ritual dance involved?

Cars enable the modern economy to exist. How about progressive taxation across the economy?

Woah talk about triggered... I’m sorry if this fact offends you but diesel emissions are carcinogenic.

If you bush folk want to keep burning diesel please by all means... just keep it away from king street in Newtown. I’m sick of sitting at my favourite cafe and ruining my smashed avo and piccolo breakfast with the smell of diesel fumes!

I live in a regional area nowadays. And believe me, we don't want to visit King Street in Newtown. Not now, not ever. I'll go out of my way to avoid the Supercharger at the top end of that street, but that's not important right now.

If you want less diesel fumes on King Street, talk to your MP and get Sydney Buses to electrify. They're dragging their feet.

 

[Vostok]

If you want less diesel fumes on King Street, talk to your MP and get Sydney Buses to electrify. They're dragging their feet.

Constance reckons that will happen, but has committed no timeframe. Also, after flogging off various bus service areas in Sydney (but not all of them... yet), it’s not really his decision any more.

However, the private operators do understand economics and know that maintaince of their diesel fleet is a huge cost. So they do appear highly motivated to start the transition to electric buses because they've run the numbers.

The few electric buses that serve my local (relatively inner-city) area are truly awesome. So pleasant to ride on. No vibrations, little noise, no disgusting ear-piercing brake squeals, and they can drag cars off at the lights .

 

[Moskito]

I wonder what Elon would think of this tax on EVs?
Does he even know about it?
I’m not on Twitter but he did help us get a lower premium connectivity rate in Australia, when contacted by an Australian on that issue.
I really object to this useage tax because if I’m charging with grid power, I’m paying GST to charge the car.
A tax on a tax.

 

[ZeeDoktor]

I really don't get how Aussies think.

How about we incentivise EVs before we even talk about taxing them? The middle class - or what's left of it in this country - would readily embrace the technology if it weren't so ridiculously expensive when compared to the low tech crap GM, Mazda, Toyota, Great Wall etc are throwing on the market. Thank the Good Lord above for Holden's demise. That was a long time coming and still too late.

What we need is LCT, stamp duty, and rego exemption for 10 years. We need people to stop burning fossil fuels, not just for the environment, but for people's health, and for technological advancement. Let's start this new chapter in technological evolution already, and stop regressing with this Oliver Twist *sugar* the pollies keep feeding us pointing fingers at the 'aves.

Desires are created by those with money, and that's a good thing in this case. I recently drove through Gunnedah and ended up with a horde of kids surrounding my S with ludicrous on the NRMA charger, each and every one said that was their dream car, because it kicks the crap out of any dirty old V8 their dads were touting as cool. And the kids got it right, those V8s are not cool. I let them sit in the car and pretend drive, they loved every second of it.

My form of developmental aid I guess...

 

[Vostok]

The NSW Environment Minister, Matt Kean, has come out in defiance of his Treasurer against a road usage charge for EVs... although somewhat bizarrely suggested it would be OK once they reach 20% of new cars sales:

Don’t plug in tax on electric cars: Kean takes on Treasurer

If the trigger instead was 20% of the fleet then this would be a clever tactic, because at that point, the backlash would be so great against its adoption that it would be politically untenable, hence would never be implemented. Brilliant

Matt Kean drives a Tesla Model 3. He says NSW will release a “comprehensive electric car policy in coming months”.

 

[Vostok]

I really don't get how Aussies think.

How about we incentivise EVs before we even talk about taxing them?

Norway does both - provides some incentives for EVs, but mostly taxes the crap out of fossil cars. I like that model.

Incentives for EVs are OK provided they are means-tested (no middle and upper-class welfare, please) and targeted. But taxing pollution is a better idea in my view because it can be universally and fairly applied, with tax/welfare offsets for the less well off, funded from the pollution tax, to make it financially neutral for the bottom half. A pollution tax also phases itself out automatically as pollution reduces.

I’m not that cut up about the LCT, since a growing number of EVs will never be impacted by it. If one can afford a $70k+ car, then I don’t object to such consumption being subjected to additional taxation, EV or not.

Non-financial/tax policy changes which should be implemented include adoption of proper vehicle emissions standards which progressively tighten over time, planning rule changes to encourage the build-out of public charger networks and kerb-side charging in city areas where people do not have off street parking, development rules to mandate EV charging capability (the wiring and metering, not necessarily have the wall connector installed) be provided at all parking spaces in all new unit and apartment blocks (and progressively fitted to older blocks, with the Owners Corporation not having any veto rights), etc.

There also needs to be specific electrification programmes developed for public buses, delivery trucks, vans, utes, business fleets etc.

 

[cafz]

Non-financial/tax policy changes which should be implemented include adoption of proper vehicle emissions standards which progressively tighten over time, planning rule changes to encourage the build-out of public charger networks and kerb-side charging in city areas where people do not have off street parking, development rules to mandate EV charging capability (the wiring and metering, not necessarily have the wall connector installed) be provided at all parking spaces in all new unit and apartment blocks (and progressively fitted to older blocks, with the Owners Corporation not having any veto rights), etc.

I'd also suggest some kind of policy response to incentivise provision of charging at workplace parking. Charging during the day is an ideal solar sponge, and solves some of the 'no off street parking' problem too.

 

[RareEarth]

Given the dire state of budgets at state and federal level, treasurers will be looking around for extra cash from any new tax source.

"Now my advice for those who die, declare the pennies on your eyes" - Beatles 1966

 

[Sir Surfalot]

Matt Kean drives a Tesla Model 3. He says NSW will release a “comprehensive electric car policy in coming months”.

I met a chap at Mona Vale beach a couple of mornings ago. I had been for an early surf and was getting changed back at my Tesla and he was parked next to me and getting ready to go for his surf.

We got to talking about my Tesla and EVs— he was interested in a Tesla for himself (seeing how well mine works as a surf car), and asking about fast charging for south coast trips, etc - and it turns out he actually works for Matt Kean. He seemed a very nice chap, and was very positive about his boss. It was very interesting to hear from him how pro-EV Matt Kean was (at both a personal and policy level), and this newspaper story today bears this out.

I may send Matt Kean a nice and supportive message; there is a Contact page on his website, and I feel like sending him some direct supporting feedback, as I think he is “reading the room” rather better than a lot of other people in Australian mainstream politics.

 

[Vostok]

I met a chap at Mona Vale beach a couple of mornings ago. I had been for an early surf and was getting changed back at my Tesla and he was parked next to me and getting ready to go for his surf.

We got to talking about my Tesla and EVs— he was interested in a Tesla for himself (seeing how well mine works as a surf car), and asking about fast charging for south coast trips, etc - and it turns out he actually works for Matt Kean. He seemed a very nice chap, and was very positive about his boss. It was very interesting to hear from him how pro-EV Matt Kean was (at both a personal and policy level), and this newspaper story today bears this out.

I may send Matt Kean a nice and supportive message; there is a Contact page on his website, and I feel like sending him some direct supporting feedback, as I think he is “reading the room” rather better than a lot of other people in Australian mainstream politics.

Great story! If you liked that article, you’ll like this one even more...

How NSW Energy Minister Matt Kean went from PwC accountant to electrifying Liberal

If you can’t get past the paywall, it’s on his website:

Matt Kean's journey from PwC accountant to electrifying Liberal

 

[OzVic]

He seemed a very nice chap, and was very positive about his boss.

I may send Matt Kean a nice and supportive message; there is a Contact page on his website, and I feel like sending him some direct supporting feedback, as I think he is “reading the room” rather better than a lot of other people in Australian mainstream politics.

This is why I hate politicians though. Once Gladys decides there's going to be an EV tax, Matt will vote for it. They will almost always put their party before their constituents. Too worried about their jobs and money/career and bow to their corrupt colleagues (mainly talking Federal), rather than do the right thing.

 

[Vostok]

Here’s NSW’s latest take on this issue:

NSW Treasurer flags distance-based tax on electric vehicles

Dominic Perrottet says such a tax would only happen after a substantial take-up of the technology and would be part of a “holistic” tax plan.

www.smh.com.au

I’d say there’s still some wriggle room in there to kill this off, or have a usage tax applied to all vehicles. Eternal vigilance is required.

 

[moa999]

I don't disagree with the 'wholistic' part

But it needs to be done at the Federal level, including a detailed review of the diesel subsidies.
And ideally new 'environmental taxes' on petrol and diesel that will increase over time.

 

[Candleflame]

I don't disagree with the 'wholistic' part

But it needs to be done at the Federal level, including a detailed review of the diesel subsidies.
And ideally new 'environmental taxes' on petrol and diesel that will increase over time.

Wont happen. Nsw and victoria will fight to have this on a state level as they have a high population and want a big slice of the cake. I mean thats the real reason for the agressive ev taxation move ( and historically also for the speeding fine collection imho)

 

[Brian May]

I think if this tax applied equally to all cars, then most of my concerns would be eliminated. As in all cars contribute equally to road wear and tear, congestion, etc. I still think Petrol should still be taxed though, because Petrol contributes to additional problems that EV cars do not. But I don't see any of this happening. I think trying to get this working on a scale of all vehicles has practical implementation issues as well as a being political mine field.

The Victorian government thinks it can sell the tax by pushing subsidies. Victoria offers subsidies in plan to make half of all new cars sold electric by 2030 - but these subsidies only affect new EV owners. Existing owners will be left out of pocket. Why should early adopters get this treatment?

My only other concern is what happens to interstate travel? I don't think that the Victorian government should be able to tax travel while interstate. But to try to record driving distance out side the state seems prone to invasive technology, fraud, and/or user error. This might not be an issue if the tax was a federal tax however. But I don't see that happening either.