Looks like in Germany they are now building lots of CCS stations. Some of them without Chademo connectors. If believing the article I read yesterday at one of the major German news sites there will be 50-100 being built by the end of the year and a lot more coming in 2015. This can get important very quickly...
SAE J1772 DC (Combo) Connector Adapter for Model S
- Thread starter stopcrazypp
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True. But that's because Volkswagen and BMW both support CCS. No German EV supports CHAdeMO.
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Yeah, and that's why Tesla won't be eager to support a competitor's backed system. At least any other car company wouldn't. It is hard to say for me if that also holds for Tesla.
But another interesting tidbit from the article is that it states explicitly that things only start moving more quickly because of Elon Musk. It seems committing and actually building out the SC network fast in Europe really could give EVs a big push.
Here is the article in German:
Schnellladesäulen für Elektroautos: Ausbau der Infrastruktur - SPIEGEL ONLINE
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Unlike chademo which isn't backed by car companies?
Most major european car companies and north american ones have agreed to use ccs. With a type1 based connector in NA and type 2 based in europe. It also happens that EU seems to standardize on type 2 with chademo as an option.
So we will see a lot of ccs stations across europe really soon.
The Model S comes with a type 2 connector in europe. It just lacks the two extra dc pins.
I think it will be important for Tesla to support ccs in europe. I don' t see the ccs stations as competing with sc's. Sc's are much better but they will be few compared to the ccs stations so ccs support would be a complimentary to the sc's.
Tesla can solve this in two ways. An adapter or just start fitting the ccs inlet. Second alternative would be best from my point of view. Sc connector as well as type2 mode 3 would still fit.
But maybe hard due to space so in that case, a passive adapter would be whats needed.
I don't think Tesla can just ignore ccs in europe and think they will get increased sales in germany...
@matbl
I think you have a point. If CCS really does become common in Germany and Tesla sales are not meeting their expectations there, that could motivate them to make the adapter. The only reason to make it may be to remove one more objection from potential customers. It's kind of like the Japanese study that found that people don't really use DCQC as much as they think they will, but just having them around increases the daily range that people are willing to use.
I think you have a point. If CCS really does become common in Germany and Tesla sales are not meeting their expectations there, that could motivate them to make the adapter. The only reason to make it may be to remove one more objection from potential customers. It's kind of like the Japanese study that found that people don't really use DCQC as much as they think they will, but just having them around increases the daily range that people are willing to use.
A CCS adapter will not be just a mechanical adapter Because as you maybe know, I work on my own CHAdeMO adapter (need it for this summer and I am not sure Tesla adapter will be ready). We all supposed the Model S use the PLC GreenPhy standard to talk to the supercharger through the pilot line, as CCS chargers do.
But it's not he case. When I simulate a DC charge with my own EVSE wallbox (sending 5% duty cycle), I can clearly see the Model try to communicate to the charger on the pilot line. But the modulation sent by the Model S is absolutely not a PLC HomePlug AV/GreenPhy modulation, I detailed the signal here : Supercharger protocol for diy CHAdeMO adapter - Page 4
Will post signal screenshoot soon
Thus for a CCS adapter, it will be much complicated than for the CHAdeMO adapter. The supercharger emulation part of the adapter are the same, but to talk on the CCS charger, it needs a PLC greenphy hardware (based on QCA7000 chip for example), and a much more complicated software than the CHAdeMO adapter, which is just a CAN bus with a very simple protocol.
Because as you maybe know, I work on my own CHAdeMO adapter (need it for this summer and I am not sure Tesla adapter will be ready). We all supposed the Model S use the PLC GreenPhy standard to talk to the supercharger through the pilot line, as CCS chargers do.But it's not he case. When I simulate a DC charge with my own EVSE wallbox (sending 5% duty cycle), I can clearly see the Model try to communicate to the charger on the pilot line. But the modulation sent by the Model S is absolutely not a PLC HomePlug AV/GreenPhy modulation, I detailed the signal here : Supercharger protocol for diy CHAdeMO adapter - Page 4
Will post signal screenshoot soon
Thus for a CCS adapter, it will be much complicated than for the CHAdeMO adapter. The supercharger emulation part of the adapter are the same, but to talk on the CCS charger, it needs a PLC greenphy hardware (based on QCA7000 chip for example), and a much more complicated software than the CHAdeMO adapter, which is just a CAN bus with a very simple protocol.
medved
Member
CCS could be dead before it even gets a hold on the market if BMW moves to Tesla’s...
CCS could be dead before it even gets a hold on the market if BMW moves to Tesla’s system.
CCS could be dead before it even gets a hold on the market if BMW moves to Tesla’s system.
- Dec 8, 2007
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Maybe in the US, but not likely in Europe where it is having a rapidly growing stronghold (faster growth than CHAdeMO) and is written into the law.
Also it does not appear that's the article's main point. It also says that if Nissan moves to Tesla's standard, CHAdeMO might also die (as in the US at least, Nissan is pretty much the only car maker that has supported CHAdeMO in any significant volume).
I would be happy to see Tesla's standard replace the both of them, but if either one of them survives, I would pick CCS over CHAdeMO any day.
While I agree that Tesla's standard may well supersede the others, I don't see why they don't just substitute a CCS adapter for the standard J1772 adapter wherever adapters are legal (not in Europe?). According to earlier discussions by Tesla engineers, it's just a hardware adapter and some internal software enhancements, not an active one as the CHAdeMO would have to be. Since it's backwards compatible with J1772, it would seem to have no down side.
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nlc in a few posts above says that assumption is wrong, but at this point I don't think we know yet (it could be that Tesla has the SAE DC software disabled right now).
Also from my OP an adapter that serves both CCS (the full power version) and J1772 isn't really possible (because of how the power pins are routed). They would have to be separate adapters, although similar.
TonyWilliams
Active Member
RIIIiiiiiiight..... They actually installed some vapor-ware to support Frankenplug right after the Tesla shareholder's call, when the SAE standard was pointed out to Elon Musk, he said "Yes, the SAE have a standard. But it sucks." Which is why TM went its own way.
Ya, that's what they did.
By the way, the current EU rules include "other charge standards", not just the German one. But, I have to give them an "A" for effort; GM's efforts to kill the competition through regulation failed miserably here in the USA.
Frankenplug is Dead-On-Arrival.
for US maybe. In Europe, the type 2 CCS is rapidly becoming the standard. BMW, VW, Audi and mercedes all use it for their just shipping or soon to ship vehicles. Infrastructure is already popping up.
TonyWilliams
Active Member
I'm intimately familiar with the shill for Frankenplug. Call me when you get close to the 1100 - 1200 already installed CHAdeMO stations that continue to be added in Europe, and the quickly growing fleet of Tesla Superchargers.
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Early Tesla engineers said CHAdeMO sucked too for using a CAN bus, but the supercharger protocol ended up using a mix of both J1772 and a CAN bus, so I don't think that really says much. And I think Elon is referring more to the size and power capacity of the connector compared to the Tesla connector, not necessarily the protocol itself.
Given Tesla followed the same procedure to switch into DC mode as J1772 DC and that Tesla had full access to SAE while the standard was under development, I don't see why it's out of question that they have some support for it behind the scenes.
European deployments are quickly picking up speed. A CCS adapter would be very useful...
CCS/Combo Charge Map - Europe
CCS/Combo Charge Map - Europe
Cottonwood
Roadster#433, Model S#S37
Very nice, but... I clicked on a couple of German stations and CCS is indicated by "Combined Charging" and is limited to 20 kW. With the CCS 200 Amp limit, it looks like a Tesla could take a max power of about 75 kW (375V*200A), and certainly start at 72 kW for a while (360V*200A). It would be nice if this network had more power; I did find a 50 kW unit in Denmark...
This looks like the J1772, 30 Amp problem in the U.S. There are a lot of EVSE's out there, but because they were built for Leaf's most are limited to 30 Amps. Teslas would really like 80 Amps!
ChadS
Last tank of gas: March 2009
On a slightly more serious note, I'm not sure why those of us in WA should worry about a CCS adapter. We'd need some CCS stations before one would become desirable. Plugshare shows 0 in WA, and just a handful in OR (and they are all co-located with CHAdeMO stations). As far as I know there are no plans to put CCS stations in WA. (BMW offered some low-power units at reduced prices to their three WA dealers, but the dealers apparently were not interested). We'd have to become a ZEV state to get any stations put here, but that bill went nowhere.
There are CCS stations going in to OR and CA, but as far as I know (?) they will all be co-located with CHAdeMO. There are some going in to the main ZEV corridor on the East coast; some (but not all) of those will be CHAdeMO-colocated.
On the other hand, when I got my Model S 2.5 years ago there were trips I wanted to take that had CHAdeMO stations along the way, so the promised CHAdeMO adapter could have been a big help if it had come earlier. Maybe - the first CHAdeMO station I tried on a trip (last week) didn't work.
There are CCS stations going in to OR and CA, but as far as I know (?) they will all be co-located with CHAdeMO. There are some going in to the main ZEV corridor on the East coast; some (but not all) of those will be CHAdeMO-colocated.
On the other hand, when I got my Model S 2.5 years ago there were trips I wanted to take that had CHAdeMO stations along the way, so the promised CHAdeMO adapter could have been a big help if it had come earlier. Maybe - the first CHAdeMO station I tried on a trip (last week) didn't work.
Indeed. I'm not sure if ahimberg was serious and had actually checked Plugshare for SAE Combo DC FCs in WA.
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