SAE J1772 DC (Combo) Connector Adapter for Model S

[RDoc]

OK, I now understand the issue here, does the car have a HomePlug PLC modem or something similar? I was lumping that together with the J1772 signalling which isn't correct for SAE CCS.

However, this video with a Tesla engineer who worked on the Tesla plug design and was also active with the SAE standards group (to his ultimate disgust) also claims that Tesla is compatible, specifically both electrically and signalling, but obviously not mechanically. It's certainly possible that both he and Straubel were misspeaking, but the questions are pretty specifically about DC fast charging, and as engineers, they'd have a very clear idea of what the issues were.

The SAE Combo discussion starts at about 1:45.
https://vimeo.com/36221090

 

[AWDtsla]

OK, I now understand the issue here, does the car have a HomePlug PLC modem or something similar? I was lumping that together with the J1772 signalling which isn't correct for SAE CCS.

However, this video with a Tesla engineer who worked on the Tesla plug design and was also active with the SAE standards group (to his ultimate disgust) also claims that Tesla is compatible, specifically both electrically and signalling, but obviously not mechanically. It's certainly possible that both he and Straubel were misspeaking, but the questions are pretty specifically about DC fast charging, and as engineers, they'd have a very clear idea of what the issues were.

The SAE Combo discussion starts at about 1:45.
https://vimeo.com/36221090

I like how they are talking about the charger coordination and "finish by time" charging over 4 years ago. Still not delivered.

 

[matbl]

Yes, that's the one and only quote (from 2013) that we have all been looking at and originally interpreted to mean that Supercharging used the homeplug-based signalling.

However, numerous people (admittedly, not me) have instrumented what happens at Superchargers and what happens when you apply the J1772 'go digital' signal, and have found CAN rather than carrier-based signalling.

Strictly speaking, that isn't in conflict with the precise words you quoted above - the car does do all that's in J1772, since J1772 itself only covers AC and the initial signalling on the pilot pin to switch to "digital communication" - the carrier modulation, XML messages and so on are in other standards (J2847, J2931 etc.). I have no idea whether he deliberately intended that narrow interpretation, or was just speaking loosely.

I don't entirely understand @matbl 's suggestion that alternative signalling may be present in the car and unlocked by a different resistor value on the proximity pin - is this something in IEC61851? There's nothing in J1772 about a different resistor value for DC vs AC (indeed, the digital signalling is permitted to be used for more sophisticated AC EVSE as well as for DC), although it does specify an extra core in the cable as the DC EVSE is supposed to monitor the voltage at the car-end proximity pin (which has exactly the same resistor values as for the AC case).

So, much as I would love to find that my car does in fact support the standardised digital communication, it now seems extremely unlikely.

Arg, I posted a link to a (draft?) standard in one of these ccs threads many months ago. Can't find it right now though. It had a resistor value at 1200 or 1500 ohm to signal ccs when doing the go to digital pwm signalling.

Ohh. And to answer something else. Yes all of this is standardised but the standards are a little bit too expensive to just buy for fun.

 

[arg]

Arg, I posted a link to a (draft?) standard in one of these ccs threads many months ago. Can't find it right now though. It had a resistor value at 1200 or 1500 ohm to signal ccs when doing the go to digital pwm signalling.

Yes, I remember you posting that, but unfortunately your link was dead when I tried to retrieve it. I have my own copy of J1772, but I don't have IEC61851; I've been meaning to go to the library and have another look to see if I can find the thing you are talking about - I don't remember it from last time I read them, but it's entirely possible that I missed it.

 

[arg]

However, this video with a Tesla engineer who worked on the Tesla plug design and was also active with the SAE standards group (to his ultimate disgust) also claims that Tesla is compatible, specifically both electrically and signalling, but obviously not mechanically. It's certainly possible that both he and Straubel were misspeaking, but the questions are pretty specifically about DC fast charging, and as engineers, they'd have a very clear idea of what the issues were.

That video is from Feb 2012, before SAE had published the CCS standards (J1772 was amended in Oct 2012 to add the combo connector and specify the sequence to switch to CCS, J2847-2 with the high level protocols was published in Aug 2012), also before the first Model S deliveries (Jun 2012), and he only says that he "thinks he knows where the SAE is going" and "they have some hooks in there" to make Model S compaitble.

The Straubel interview is much more concrete, being an interview explicitly on his reaction to the eventual publication of the SAE specs and after the car had launched. But he doesn't seem to have repeated anything similar since. Maybe they had one in the lab, intended as a field upgrade, but it never happened. Maybe he was always talking with adapters in his mind.

It's possible that there's a homeplug PHY chip hiding away somewhere in the car that hasn't been noticed by anybody doing the tear-downs, but it seems really unlikely at this stage.

Nothing would make me happier than to be proved wrong....

 

[RDoc]

That video is from Feb 2012, before SAE had published the CCS standards (J1772 was amended in Oct 2012 to add the combo connector and specify the sequence to switch to CCS, J2847-2 with the high level protocols was published in Aug 2012), also before the first Model S deliveries (Jun 2012), and he only says that he "thinks he knows where the SAE is going" and "they have some hooks in there" to make Model S compaitble.

The Straubel interview is much more concrete, being an interview explicitly on his reaction to the eventual publication of the SAE specs and after the car had launched. But he doesn't seem to have repeated anything similar since. Maybe they had one in the lab, intended as a field upgrade, but it never happened. Maybe he was always talking with adapters in his mind.

It's possible that there's a homeplug PHY chip hiding away somewhere in the car that hasn't been noticed by anybody doing the tear-downs, but it seems really unlikely at this stage.

Nothing would make me happier than to be proved wrong....

Here's an article from Aug 2011 saying that SAE and IEEE were cooperating specifically on HomePlug of J1772 Combo
http://articles.sae.org/10128/
and a paper from July 2011 stating that SAE Combo would use PLC communications
http://www.sae.org/standardsdev/news/P111164.pdf

As far as how the PLC might be implemented in the Model S, at the time it was being designed, there weren't any dedicated Homeplug Green PHY modems AFAIK, however, it's my understanding that there were several implementations of IEEE 1901 on DSP's including the TMS320 which is in the Model S.
http://www.cygnuscorp.com/autorem%20paper%20r4.pdf

 

[matbl]

Yes, I remember you posting that, but unfortunately your link was dead when I tried to retrieve it. I have my own copy of J1772, but I don't have IEC61851; I've been meaning to go to the library and have another look to see if I can find the thing you are talking about - I don't remember it from last time I read them, but it's entirely possible that I missed it.

Or maybe it was just in a draft.
For a quick look in any (?) IEC standard, there is also the option to use the estonian standards agency (evs.ee) to do online browsing (webpage and standard still in english). 2 EUR per standard, might be cheaper then going to the library if you have to pay for parking...

 

[TaoJones]

Am gearing up to journey into the hinterlands and noticed that there are a few SAE/CCS chargers listed within Plugshare (for example, at a BMW dealership *twitch*) for the areas in question.

Now that we're rapidly encroaching upon Summer 2016, is there still no adapter available such that Teslas can utilize SAE/CCS chargers?

 

[Chris TX]

Am gearing up to journey into the hinterlands and noticed that there are a few SAE/CCS chargers listed within Plugshare (for example, at a BMW dealership *twitch*) for the areas in question.

Now that we're rapidly encroaching upon Summer 2016, is there still no adapter available such that Teslas can utilize SAE/CCS chargers?

Not yet. Tesla has recently become a member of the CCS group CharIN. I think that membership would be needed to be able to supply a certified adapter.

 

[TaoJones]

Not yet. Tesla has recently become a member of the CCS group CharIN. I think that membership would be needed to be able to supply a certified adapter.

Thanks. All in good time, maybe. Looks like I'll rely upon the kindness of Nissan dealership managers during business hours only with throttled (by manufacture) 20kW units (and my trusty ChaDeMo adapter) in the meantime.

 

[israndy]

Bump... Wouldn't it be great if they came out with a CCS adapter instead of a J1772 adapter for the Model 3? The nearest Supercharger is 45 minutes away (pity the East Bay), but it's closer to 5 minutes to the nearest EVgo or GreenLots chargers. Looks like ChaDeMo is a thing of the past so I don't wanna buy an expensive translator when I can get a simple adapter for the new standard. Perhaps an opportunity for a 3rd party to step up?

-Randy

 

[Cosmacelf]

Bump... Wouldn't it be great if they came out with a CCS adapter instead of a J1772 adapter for the Model 3? [ ... ] Looks like ChaDeMo is a thing of the past so I don't wanna buy an expensive translator when I can get a simple adapter for the new standard. Perhaps an opportunity for a 3rd party to step up?

Any DC adapter isn't going to be "simple". A CCS adapter is probably beyond the capabilities of a third party.

 

[scottf200]

Any DC adapter isn't going to be "simple". A CCS adapter is probably beyond the capabilities of a third party.

As well it appears Nissan is still going with ChaDeMo on their new vehicles (V2G and Japan charger density). Will that mean that most public chargers will be burdened with two plugs just for Nissan.

 

[cwerdna]

As well it appears Nissan is still going with ChaDeMo on their new vehicles (V2G and Japan charger density). Will that mean that most public chargers will be burdened with two plugs just for Nissan.

And Tesla (for those who chose to use a CHAdeMO adapter), besides the other vehicles listed at EVs – Chademo Association. The Japanese market BMW i3 has a CHAdeMO inlet but it oddly missing from that page.

 

[scottf200]

And Tesla (for those who chose to use a CHAdeMO adapter), besides the other vehicles listed at EVs – Chademo Association. The Japanese market BMW i3 has a CHAdeMO inlet but it oddly missing from that page.

Right but outside of Japan, Nissan is what 98% of the chademo cars. BMW i3 and others are chademo mainly to sell in Japan.

 

[Rocky_H]

Right but outside of Japan, Nissan is what 98% of the chademo cars. BMW i3 and others are chademo mainly to sell in Japan.

KIA Soul EV too, although that's not much volume.
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