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SAE vs CHAdeMO

Discussion in 'Charging Standards and Infrastructure' started by TEG, Jan 2, 2013.

  1. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    This is an old article, but it remains an interesting topic:

    CHAdeMO General Assembly Contemplates SAE Plug Competition - HybridCars.com

    We don't (yet) know if Model S will ever support use of either of these types of offboard DC quick charge systems.

    Some related old threads:

    DC Quick Charge vs Supercharge
    Likelihood of a CHAdeMO adapter for the Model S
    Will other brand vehicles be able to use the Supercharger?
    TEPCO/CHAdeMO Level III charging station/connector
    Open CHAdeMO
    Charging Station standards
    What charge port connector?
    SAE announces the 'official' charging plug standard for North America
    New Model S owner charging primer (US)


    - - - Updated - - -

    Another article:
    http://www.gizmag.com/sae-j1772-combo-plug-standard/24607/
     
  2. 100thMonkey

    100thMonkey Member

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    I would really like it a lot of Tesla would a come out with a CHAdeMO adapter. the number of CHAdeMO chargers in WA and OR is growing practically daily and it would be very handy to be able to access them. From the looks of it there will never be the number of Tesla chargers as their are CHAdeMO already here.
     
  3. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    #3 TEG, Jan 2, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2013
    Although, (obviously) a longer range vehicle doesn't need as high a density of charging locations.

    I wonder if Tesla Gen-III ("Bluestar") will offer "Supercharging" in a vehicle with < 200 mile range? If so, Tesla might want to increase the density of superchargers a few years from now. For now, it seems the 160 mile range Model S won't offer Supercharging so it becomes a "moot point" for the time being.

    A couple years ago I think some people thought "I can get by with a 160 mile range entry level Model S as long as I can quick charge along the way to my destination." Now that we know that Tesla doesn't plan to offer Supercharging on the entry model it changes the utility of that variant and encourages distance drivers to pay for an upgrade to the bigger pack versions.
     
  4. 100thMonkey

    100thMonkey Member

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    I do realize that my frame of reference is the Leaf yet I am pretty sure that the need for quick charging will still be there, just on a different scale. with my recent trip to CA via I-5, I was reminded that real world complications will cause wild variations in range, such has having to heat the cabin in a 4 hour traffic jam in heavy snow. I don't think we will ever have too many charging options. having a CHAdeMO adapter would keep the options open for the unexpected situations that invariably crop up.

     
  5. ASG

    ASG Member

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    OR/WA chargers - map that shows Tesla compatibility?

    Is there a map that breaks down which chargers are CHAdeMO, and which are actually compatible with the Tesla? I was assuming that the OR EV highway project would be J1772 and therefore compatible....is that the case?
     
  6. Zzzz...

    Zzzz... Member

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    Basic difference is that CHAdeMO supports 60kW DC max, while SAE supports up to 100kW.

    Other important point, SAE would probably be much cheaper because CHAdeMO is a proprietary tech controlled by Japanese corporations. CHAdeMO would require heavy royalties to be paid on both sides of the plug eventually (both by EV and charger manufacturers). SAE on the other hand seems to aim for international standardization. Parts of SAE might be covered by some patents but chances are that it would be cheaper from the beginning and after patents expiration would be totally free.

    BTW, there are reports (1, 2) that Tesla will support CHAdeMO. I think TM will support both eventually.
     
  7. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Isn't CHAdeMO opening things up now? :
    Open CHAdeMO
    http://www.chademo.com/pdf/CHAdeMOtsjis.pdf
     
  8. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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  9. ipdamages

    ipdamages Roadster Sports 835 & 972

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  10. efusco

    efusco Moderator - Model S & X forums

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  11. TonyWilliams

    TonyWilliams Active Member

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    #11 TonyWilliams, Apr 2, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2013
    Frankenplug Cast Members:

    BMW and GM intend to start yet ANOTHER electric vehicle charging standard for DC quick charging. There are already two used in the USA; the proprietary Tesla "Supercharger" standard and the CHAdeMO standard which already has 160 installed (plus 1650 in Japan and 650 in Europe).

    Yet another standard is not what the USA wants, needs or can afford. USA taxpayers, watch you pocketbook because GM and BMW will be demanding their new "Frankenplug" standard is paid for by YOU.

    During a Tesla shareholder's call, when the SAE standard was pointed out to Elon Musk, he said "Yes, the SAE have a standard. But it sucks." Which is why TM went its own way. However, this article from March 2013 SAE article suggests that Tesla is 100% SAE compliant. Probably not a neutral source for information about a standard with so many SAE press releases and so few cars. Tesla intends to offer a CHAdeMO adapter in the future.

    Tesla Motors CTO talks future batteries and charging protocols


    Frankenplug Cast Members:

    1. Audi - June 3, 2012 - cancels EV plans Audi Cans Electric A2 City Car, A1 E-Tron: Report

    2. BMW - i3, Fall 2013/Early 2014 - these guys are the only ones of any of the Frankenplug consortium to have a serious EV program, that goes beyond just meeting California Air Resources Board ZEV standards.

    BMW i3 Concept. The Megacity Vehicle. - BMW i. Born Electric. [no specific mention of Frankenplug, but it is widely known that is their intention. Also, it doesn't mention if Frankenplug is standard or optional, but the range extender is optional.

    "The battery can be fully recharged in six hours at a standard power socket [230 volts in Europe, not our 120v]. If a high-speed charger is used an 80 per cent charge can be achieved in just one hour..... The BMW i3 Concept therefore offers an optional range extender, the REx, which allows the driving range to be increased. REx, a small, very smooth-running and quiet petrol engine, drives a generator"

    Update April 21, 2013

    BMW was my only hope for a Frankenplug savior in the USA. Well, it looks like I was right. Frankenplug is DEAD ON ARRIVAL if nobody will pick up the torch and run with it. It looks like the BMW i3 might have been a strict CARB-ZEV compliance car after all, which means that they aren't going to spend Frankenbucks on Frankenplugs:

    Tesla Motors Inc (NASDAQ:TSLA) board member Steve Jurvetson spoke with FOX Business Network’s (FBN) Melissa Francis about the future of Tesla Motors Inc (NASDAQ:TSLA). Jurvetson said, On whether Tesla investor’s should be worried about the new BMW electric car that is coming out next year:

    “Well, both Elon and I burst into laughter with the questions just because Bayerische Motoren Werke AG (FRA:BMW) itself said – and I’ve never heard any product release say this a year before its release – we’re not trying to make the best electric car; we’re building this vehicle because we have to for regulatory reasons. They’re basically they’re saying don’t judge us by this car and whether it’s any good or not a year before it’s released. It’s totally a different kind of product. It doesn’t have very good range; and they’re putting in a gasoline lawnmower engine in there as a backup. It’s kind of an odd duck.”

    Tags: BMW, Electric car, FBN, Fox Business, hybrid car, Steve Jurvetson, Tesla

    This entry was posted on August 21, 2013 at 4:24 pm and is filed under Business.

    Tesla Motors Board Member Laughs At BMW Electric Car



    3. Chrysler / Fiat - they don't even want to take "free" government money to develop EVs, and gave it back. Nada from them. The Fiat 500e compliance car has no mention of quick charging or combo plug (nor J1772), only 240 and 120 volt charge times.

    4. Daimler - working with Tesla on B class, which means unlikely their first EV efforts will have anything more than what the Toyota Rav4 EV has.... no DC fact charger. The pictures shown so far have enough room for a CHAdeMO plug along side the Mennekes plug for the European market. Presumably, a J1772 plug would be used in North America.

    The Smart EV has no DC fast charge capability.

    5. Ford - nada. The Focus EV is a luke warm effort to comply with CARB.

    6. General Motors - Spark, Spring 2014. Just a California CARB compliance car. Toyota has to sell 2600 Rav4 EVs, so I suspect GM must sell a similar volume.

    Chevrolet Spark EV Will Be Made In South Korea - HybridCars.com

    Frankenplug is optional on Spark EV and initial markets include California, Oregon, Canada, South Korea and other global markets.

    “The Spark EV will be sold in limited quantities in select U.S. and global markets starting in 2013 (as a 2014 model), including California,” Fox said. “We have not announced any additional markets beyond California and have not said exactly when in 2013 they will be available. More news and information will be coming as we get closer to the introduction and launch of the Spark EV.”

    "“The Spark EV will be produced in Changwon, South Korea, the same location as the Spark with the internal combustion engine," said GM's Randy Fox, Electric Vehicle Technology Communications."

    "Actually, the Spark EV's range – along with curb weight, price, top speed, on-board charger details, and other specifications – are still not being shared, Fox said, as these are still being finalized."

    "Although Fox did not say so, it’s likely the company will continue using SAE charging connections as it does with the Volt, and not CHAdeMO. He did confirm DC fast charging will be available."


    7. Porsche - nada

    8. Renault - tentative and tepid announcement after the other 8 announced that they are "in". No car announced to handle it, though, and they announced their own 43kW AC "Chameleon" fast charger and support of CHAdeMO that sister company Nissan uses.

    9. Volkswagen - They have a ChadeMo Blink at their San Francisco tech center, and plan to use converted Golf's in 2013, presumably to be strictly CARB compliance cars:

    "Volkswagen, a major promoter of the Combo system, plans to put EVs on the market around the world from 2013 by converting some of its Golf and other popular models.

    While Volkswagen will use the Combo system as the charging system for its EVs, the company will modify relevant units to accommodate the CHAdeMo system for the Japanese market."


    I would guess that the not specifically mentioned USA that will have beau coup ChadeMo's compared to perhaps zero Frankenplugs might also get those "modified / accommodated" VW cars here in the USA.

    Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/06/08/2121867/automakers-aim-to-set-global-standard.html#storylink=cpy

    “DC charging” refers to a charging protocol in which a charging station supplies direct current to a plug-in vehicle’s battery pack. This type of charging, which can be used to “quick charge” some compatible battery packs to 80% state-of-charge (SOC) in as little as ten to twenty minutes, contrasts with the much more common AC charging protocols, in which alternating charging current is supplied to the vehicle and is rectified to direct current by the vehicle’s on-board charger component, which then charges the battery pack.

    Efforts to find consensus on a single charging standard have so far been elusive, particularly with respect to DC charging. Although the CHAdeMO DC charging standard prevails in Japan, with almost 1400 such chargers installed in that country, it is not integrated with AC charging. A CHAdeMO-complaint vehicle therefore requires a large charging door (e.g., Nissan LEAF) or two separate charging doors (e.g., Mitsubishi i-MiEV).

    Volkswagen executives indicated that they had met with CHAdeMO representatives in the past to discuss a single charging standard, but were unable to come to an agreement; one executive reminisced “that was a very difficult discussion” which “quickly became political”. Although many manufacturers of plug-in vehicles, including Volkswagen, support the SAE J1772 AC-DC “combo connector” standard in the US market, as well as the somewhat similar VDE-AR-E 2623-2-2 AC-DC standard in Europe, one VW executive remarked “we don’t want to discriminate” on charging standards, explaining “...the investors and the users will decide”.
     
  12. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    VW also put an Eaton SAE right across from that CHAdeMO you mentioned.
    I haven't seen VW use the CHAdeMO, but I have seen them use the new SAE with some prototype vehicles of theirs.
    I think they are still serious about supporting SAE Combo "CCS" on their cars next year.

    Volkswagen Group of America and Eaton Unveil New Combined Charging System Quick Charger
     
  13. Bipo

    Bipo Member

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    Well, this pic was taken before the CCS was developed, but is interesting. It's the proto Audi R8 e-tron with both CHAdeMO and Mennekes:

    arhXWTH.jpg
     
  14. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    #14 stopcrazypp, Apr 3, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
    Actually here's the most recent SAE DC (Combo connector) update.
    http://www.evcollaborative.org/sites/all/themes/pev/files/PEV%20Collaborative%20DC%20Combo%20Update%20for%2013Mar2013_final2.pdf

    Three SAE DC cars slated for the US: the Spark, i3, eGolf.
    There are 4 SAE DC chargers in operation (50kW): 1 VW, 2 GM, 1 BMW.
    There are 6 suppliers in the process of certifying chargers: ABB, AkerWade, Eaton, Efacec, EvTec, IES, Siemens.

    All three CHAdeMO public charger networks (eVGo, Blink, 350Green) have support planned for SAE DC in some way:
    - The eVgo network will have 200 SAE DC chargers installed in California as part of the NRG settlement (will happen as soon as the UL certification is finished; the aim is by this summer); AFAIK these chargers will also have a CHAdeMO connector.
    - ECOtality is working on integrating the Combo connector onto their Blink charger (the plan seems to be to swap one of the CHAdeMO connectors for a Combo one, given they have a dual connector station in the first place); they are looking for funding from the DOE and/or CA to install the new connector.
    - 350Green's new owner, the Car Charging Group, recently backed the Combo connector (although I haven't heard concrete plans from them):
    http://www.hybridcars.com/car-charging-endorses-saes-new-ev-coupler-58117/

    Everyone is waiting for UL certification, but once that happens, I think SAE DC should be moving at a fairly rapid clip (starting with those 200 guaranteed chargers).

    BTW I don't think VW going with CHAdeMO in the Japanese market (Tesla is doing the same in terms of an adapter) means much for other markets. CHAdeMO is pretty much the only practical option in Japan.

    Back then VW was seriously considering going with CHAdeMO even in the non-Japanese market (since CHAdeMO was making some in-roads in Europe). I believe even the eGolf used a CHAdeMO connector (there's a picture of this in one of the other threads). Of course when CCS came out, they switched to CCS. I think the main reason is CHAdeMO demand has waned in Europe (Leaf and iMIEV clones haven't been selling well, Renault decided to use Mennekes 3-phase and not CHAdeMO).
     
  15. surfingslovak

    surfingslovak Member

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    #15 surfingslovak, Apr 3, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013
    teslamnl.gif
    Excellent summary, which matches some of the information I would be aware of as well. As unfortunate as this schism is, I think there is some hope that the differences will be worked out in the end. Is this something the regulators could weigh in on? If I remember correctly, all mobile handset manufacturers had to agree to use the same charging standard across the EU. Not quite the same, but perhaps comparable situation.
     
  16. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    The "solution" seems to be to support both connectors on the charger side (at least in California). That way no car will be stranded because they don't have the right connector. Meanwhile the cars can battle for market share.

    The cars are looking to be Leaf vs i3 and iMIEV vs compliance cars (Spark, eGolf).

    I'm kind of biased in this because I'm planning to get a Gen III and I would rather spend ~$100 on a relatively simple J1772-DC adapter than ~$500 on a more complicated CHAdeMO adapter box. So I'm definitely rooting for more SAE DC capable stations. At the same time I think it makes sense to keep CHAdeMO support for existing Leaf owners.
     
  17. TonyWilliams

    TonyWilliams Active Member

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    #17 TonyWilliams, Apr 10, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2013

    There are FAR more than just three public charger networks in the USA. Large networks like ChargePoint do not have many DC quick chargers at all, nor have they offered "support" for Combo. 350green was near bankrupt and bought out *** April 11, 2013 update: 350green investigated by FBI; operations in 19 markets stopped **** and Blink will be bankrupt when federal funds dry up. They will only convert their existing units if federal handouts show up. NRG/EVgo didn't volunteer to install Frankenplugs... It was the add-on that GM cleverly got stuck in the deal with the state of California. GM tried to starve out CHAdeMO from state money, but that didn't work out so well for them.

    GM knows that THEY are not going to fund or install chargers (like Nissan is doing) and will continue to lobby government money toward their competing standard. You'll note that the other three USA manufacturers, Ford, Chrysler and Tesla have virtually no support for Frankenplug.

    The only place to have widespread Menekkes (Euro-spec) three phase Frankenplugs (that don't plug into your USA-spec Frankenplug) will be Germany, becasue their government will throw TONS of money at "their" national standard. Of course, there will still be Chameleon and CHAdeMO in Germany, except it likely won't have any government handouts. That's what GM has tried and hopes to do here.



    As I stated in my post. No public Frankenplugs, and those three cars (I didn't name eGolf) in the USA. Of those three, two are strictly CARB compliance cars which will sell in comically small numbers. Check out the sales of Toyota Rav4EV, Ford FocusEV, Mitsubishi iMiev and Honda FitEV to see just how ridiculously small those numbers can go. The BMW i3 may sell in respectable numbers, but I find that highly unlikely given the initial price point of almost $50k.

    Does anybody find it odd that the number one selling EV of all time, with over 50,000 sold, is not in the Frankenplug Club?


    The aim for those 200 stations is specifically NOT "by this summer". The agreement for NRG is over 4 years, with only 12 CHAdeMO equipped stations (with J1772) the first year and the remaining 188 over the following 3 years.

    They are only required to add the Frankenplugs when two publically available Frankenplug charger manufacturers and at least one Frankenplug car are in the market. The earliest for that is likely 2014.

    Again, the default DC charger for those 200 is the CHAdeMO (plus the universally used J1772 station). Even when they start adding a second Frankenplug brand charger to the already existing CHAdeMO, there just won't be very many cars to use them. I'll bet more Tesla Model S/X/Gen III are using them in the coming years with adaptors than ALL the Frankenplug cars combined. Of course, those Tesla cars will have their own dedicated network plus access to both CHAdeMO and Frankenplug stations with adapters. ADVANTAGE TESLA !!!!



    There are 650 of those "in-roads" in the ground operating in Europe right now, and 2500 worldwide. The Combo standard plug used in Europe won't plug into a USA spec car, and vice versa, and there are zero publically available anyway. VW didn't go with Combo because Combo was making "in-roads".... quite the opposite !!!! It's a "non sequitur".

    If adapters are available anywhere in the world, they will show up in the USA, guaranteed. That means somebody driving their Combo car with no place to charge can use the many thousands of CHAdeMO stations already around the world. As a matter of fact, Nissan is adding 500 more, and there will be thousands more soon.

    Frankenplug was obsolete when they proposed it.
     
  18. Robert.Boston

    Robert.Boston Model S VIN P01536

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    That's not quite right. First, the initial chargers have to have both CHAdeMO and J1772. Second, those need to go up to DC SAE when there is at least one car that can use the SAE DC charging and at least two EVSE manufacturers who make the chargers. NRG didn't want to get squeezed having to sole-source chargers. Here's the exact language from the settlement agreement, section 4.A(vi)(4):
     
  19. TonyWilliams

    TonyWilliams Active Member

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    #19 TonyWilliams, Apr 10, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013
    Thanks for clarifying my mistaken memory!!! I have edited my original post.

    :smile:

    Remember, this agreement is over 4 years, with only 12 of 200 chargers in the first year.
     
  20. TonyWilliams

    TonyWilliams Active Member

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    350green investigated by FBI

    One of those future Frankenplug providers, 350green, just got a visit from the FBI. Operations in all 19 markets halted. Cutting deals to pay folks at 50 cents on the dollar of what the owe.

    I'm not sure how this will play out, but I'm going out on a limb and saying neither 350green, nor Blink, will be providing Frankenplugs anytime soon. If Blink did do Frankenplugs with a government handout before they go BK, the machines would likely be the same grossly poor quality as the CHAdeMO units they install.

    That leaves NRG, which I'm confident will provide the 200 units in 4 years in one state; California. Hey, what could go wrong with a state agreement to settle electric disputes?
     

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