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Safety Score

AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
11,154
14,128
San Diego
Though, at 1.127294^(hard braking ratio), 100% hard braking should only be a 12.7% increase in the PCF factor, not enough on its own to trigger unsafe ratings (2 points if everything else is ideal).
Their use of ratios and how they are used in the formula is confusing.

Hard braking “just” 7.4% of the time lowers your safety score to, at best, 78.

1.127294^7.4 = 2.427

PCF = 0.6829 * 2.427 = 1.657

(So increases the PCF about 1 from baseline, which lowers the score by about 22.)

Safety Score = 115.38 - 22.53 * 1.657 = 78.05
25AABC7C-A7FB-45B9-88CE-ADC51EE435DF.png
 

mongo

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2017
13,789
44,178
Michigan
What kind of BS false equivalency is this? There is no one else in the car when I occasionally enjoy the Performance Model S I bought.

If I care about being a "Beta Tester?" This will be in Beta until the end of time. I'd like to at least occasionally use a feature that I paid a good amount of money for 3+ years ago in good faith.

And what kind of nonsense is it that I'm training the NN when I manually drive the car? When I activate FSD Beta, I am monitoring FSD Beta. Occasionally enjoying a turn has absolutely nothing to do with my ability to monitor FSD Beta drives safely.
So how you drive has no reflection on how you would let FSD drive? In that case, what criteria should Tesla be using to select who is allowed to monitor this Beta test release of FSD? Remember this is the company/ software being looked at by the NHTSA in regards to driver engagement as regards driver assist systems. At this point, people with Beta are testers and time until ungated access does not change that.
 

DCEV

Member
Mar 25, 2019
956
712
Washington DC
Context matters and IMO it’s not doing a good job at that. (I would say it’s not even (currently) designed to attempt that)
This is my problem with it.

There is zero context. I'm a very careful driver, if I'm cut off, I immediately slow down if there is no one behind me so that if the person who cuts me off suddenly stops, I have room to react. This is safe driving behavior for DC driving but you get demerited for that.

Same with deer. My regular commute takes me to an area with lots of deer. I immediately slow down when I see a deer because chances are there are more if I see one and again you lose points for that safe behavior.

Plus any attempt to occasionally enjoy the car you bought and you are again screwed.

I mean if someone specs a Performance Model S with FSD, they should really tell you you are wasting your money because in order to monitor FSD Beta apparently you can no longer enjoy your car as if the two were connected in any logical way.
 

KArnold

Member
May 21, 2017
750
798
Columbus OH
Opted into FSD beta on my Model X screen. "Pushed" the button, checked the boxes, etc. Installed version 4.1 of the Tesla app on my iPhone. Went for a 20 min. drive. Safety Score is not showing in the app. Deleted and reinstalled the app, turned off and restarted the iPhone. Still no joy. The car is connected to cellular. Not sure what the problem is.
Is your test drive mostly/exclusively using NAV? I don't believe those register.
 

Sporty

Member
Apr 20, 2019
200
152
Seattle
I have a concern with Safety Score of 96 after I drove 186 mi round trip down to the Jersey Shore from PA. Used FSD on highways 22, 78, 287 and the GSP. Speed set at 5 over the posted speed, which varied from 50 (55), 55 (60), 65 (70)mph on FSD. Safety score bangs me for following to close. Distance was set at 4 on the car computer. Also took a very slight hit, when car decelerated quickly on a Yellow light on AP. I could of easily cleared the light but I let the AP do it's thing. Those were the only roads driven at over 50. Now 287 & GSP was a bit crowded and cars did keep cutting in, so not sure if that was the issue on distance, but FSD/AP automatically adjusts the distance. If I go to 5 on a busy highway it will really have cars honking at me and cutting in even more. Hopefully someone will look at the Following to Closely calculations when using FSD/AP. I'm taking a hit for using it. Maybe publish what distance you want the car set to. Hopefully it won't be one that continues to get us the 1 finger salute. Secondary roads had no traffic so distance wasn't an issue.

If I drive manually that would defeat the purpose of having the FSD beta, you'd think Tesla would want to know how you operate the vehicle using AP/FSD seeing that's what it will be doing under the FSD Beta. Any others noticing anything.

Wife and I share the car, will these be individual or combined, seeing they are tracking the vin and not the driver?
Interesting.. I’m pretty sure I got dinged by AP stopping short at a red light. What it did was safe as there weren’t any other cars around, but it wasn’t great driving. I sort of think .3g it too sensitive for around town driving. There are definitely times I have to press the brake in order to be safe. Every area (or road) is not the same… someone scoring a 100 around here is not whom they should be taken as a safe driver
 
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mongo

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2017
13,789
44,178
Michigan
Their use of ratios and how they are used in the formula is confusing.

Hard braking “just” 7.4% of the time lowers your safety score to, at best, 78.

1.127294^7.4 = 2.427

PCF = 0.6829 * 2.427 = 1.657

(So adds increases the PCF about 1 from baseline, which lowers the score by about 22.)

Safety Score = 115.38 - 22.53 * 1.657 = 78.05
View attachment 714536
Oh! They are using the exponents as percentage (x100). That's a much stronger range than 0-1.0 .
Thanks for the correction!
 
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DCEV

Member
Mar 25, 2019
956
712
Washington DC
So how you drive has no reflection on how you would let FSD drive? In that case, what criteria should Tesla be using to select who is allowed to monitor this Beta test release of FSD? Remember this is the company/ software being looked at by the NHTSA in regards to driver engagement as regards driver assist systems. At this point, people with Beta are testers and time until ungated access does not change that.

Find drivers with a clean driving record and no accidents. Having no accidents is your best indication of a safe driver because it means you have a driver who drives safely and is also defensive in trying to avoid potential accidents.

Not that I disagree with everything they are checking. My ideal safety check algorithm would include:
  • Insurance claim history for accidents (This is the single most important criteria)
  • No detected red light running. (not currently checked)
  • No detected stop sign running (5mph threshold accepted)
  • No tailgating (already done and I agree 100%)
  • Signal for lane changes and turning (shows someone is courteous and methodical with their driving. Not currently checked)
I understand what they are trying todo. I really do and I support the concept but NOT the current execution.

All I know is that this has completely ruined my enjoyment of the car. It's a Sunday morning and I would normally go on a nice drive but they've made me driving may car into some miserable BS gamified nonsense that actually has nothing to do with me being able to safely monitor FSD Beta nor safely drive my car.
 

GWord

Member
Aug 18, 2016
601
967
Houston, TX
You do realize that FSD Beta will be in for years. right?
.

I think what he was getting at is that Tesla seems to have two types of Beta. They have the CYA beta which I think your comment is aimed at. Those are like EAP etc where Beta just indicates that it may or may not be full of bugs, caveat emptor, and seems to persist forever. This is different though, and is more asking to an actual beta program that you see in the software industry, with an expectation that you actively participate, send bug reports back etc.

I think there are a lot of folks here that are under the expectation that FSD beta request is the former and want to just enjoy the feature. But the reality is that I think this first go round is more like buying IKEA furniture. Some participation required, and if that participation is half arsed there are real consequences to Tesla and their ability to ultimately deliver this product (see NHTSA witch hunt etc). Hence Tesla exercising some discretion on who they let participate in order to avoid any more “no one was driving!!11!1one!!1 OMG” headlines.
 
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GWord

Member
Aug 18, 2016
601
967
Houston, TX
Find drivers with a clean driving record and no accidents. Having no accidents is your best indication of a safe driver because it means you have a driver who drives safely and is also defensive in trying to avoid potential accidents.

No disagreemeets with your alternate list of data points. Just want to point out that it is common in the safety industry to prefer leading indicators. No accidents is a lagging indicator and if your goal is 0 accidents, by the time you’ve measured 1 you’ve already failed. Hence you have to use statistically significant data in other areas to predict an individual’s likelihood of getting in an accident. It also seems impractical (to me at least) for Tesla to expect ready access to someone’s criminal/driving record maybe it’s easier than I imagine.
 

EVNow

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2009
11,612
32,229
Seattle, WA
You do realize that FSD Beta will be in for years. right?
This beta is different - it’s basically “early access” beta. Not the general availability beta we have all been using.

For those who have forgotten here is the short history.
- Musk says they will expand beta FSD pool
- people ask how can they join
- Musk says they will add a button to request ...
 

AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
11,154
14,128
San Diego
That doesn't mean it DOES penalize you for improperly turning AP on--- just that if you do so AND something that'd cause a negative score happens- the system will 'count' it, which it wouldn't do if it happened in "proper" AP use.
So are you saying you don’t think the scores are masked on streets with traffic lights, etc.?

It really is a mystery; the documentation leaves Tesla wiggle room, and there are reports in both directions about how this actually works (in reports there is a lack of clarity about whether the use of AP was proper). Of course no one on the internet can be trusted so the mystery persists.

I’m not sure how it’s not penalizing to count a vehicle-initiated action while on AP in the score, but I guess that’s semantics?

There are two choices:
1) Drive yourself on a street with traffic lights, smoothly, get a decent score.
2) Use AP “incorrectly” in this scenario, have it jerking the brakes in response a some stimulus which was easily anticipated if you had been driving manually. Get a demerit.

Seems like if 2 was done with the expectation that the incident would be masked, but Tesla has decided to not mask those scenarios, that would be “penalizing” for using AP in an unsupported scenario.

If those events aren’t being masked, I’m not sure the value of the AP miles accrued is worth it. They say they calculate a mileage-weighted safety score, and those miles would help, but depending on what that means, it could only help with the FCW events (which are rare). It’s not exactly clear what they mean by mileage-weighted safety score though. If they really are condensing down each score on a day and then weighting those scores over the days by the number of miles traveled on each day (how I would interpret that literally), then yes, additional miles on the freeway on AP with actual masking of all events, except forced disengagement, could be a real benefit in offsetting a bad day. That would give a very different result than looking at the overall braking event %, following distance %, etc, over a 30-day interval, and then calculating a score just one time from all of those component percentages and rates.
 
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DCEV

Member
Mar 25, 2019
956
712
Washington DC
I think what he was getting at is that Tesla seems to have two types of Beta. They have the CYA beta which I think your comment is aimed at. Those are like EAP etc where Beta just indicates that it may or may not be full of bugs, caveat emptor, and seems to persist forever. This is different though, and is more asking to an actual beta program that you see in the software industry, with an expectation that you actively participate, send bug reports back etc.

I think there are a lot of folks here that are under the expectation that FSD beta request is the former and want to just enjoy the feature. But the reality is that I think this first go round is more like buying IKEA furniture. Some participation required, and if that participation is half arsed there are real consequences to Tesla and their ability to ultimately deliver this product (see NHTSA witch hunt etc). Hence Tesla exercising some discretion on who they let participate in order to avoid any more “no one was driving!!11!1one!!1 OMG” headlines.

Yes, Yes, Yes, I agree with most of what you said.

All I'm saying is that someone who occasionally safely enjoys their car has no basis on them being able to safely monitor FSD Beta.

I am so careful when I drive the car both for myself and other road users. I never pass a cyclist unless I can give them about half a lane of clearance. I am super careful when pedestrians are around. I even yield to pedestrians who are jaywalking by stopping and letting them cross. I am a super conservative driver.

But when no one else is on the road I do occasionally enjoy turns and on/off ramps and this has absolutely zero basis on me being able to monitor FSD Beta.

I am especially bothered by being demerited for slowing down suddenly. Safe driving requires this if you live in an area where people may cut you off, especially during rush hour traffic. Being demerited for slowing down to avoid hitting a deer or add some space between someone who just cut in front of you is just pure nonsense.

Heck if they used the same FSD Beta monitoring criteria, who knows if Elon himself would qualify to monitor FSD Beta and this is my point.
 

DCEV

Member
Mar 25, 2019
956
712
Washington DC
This beta is different - it’s basically “early access” beta. Not the general availability beta we have all been using.

For those who have forgotten here is the short history.
- Musk says they will expand beta FSD pool
- people ask how can they join
- Musk says they will add a button to request ...

It's been in Early access for a while.

People have been not talking about access to some "pool."

They have bene asking for what was promised year after year for 3+ years after they paid a bunch of money for a feature that was promised years ago.

The problem is that some what they are testing right has absolutely no basis on them being able to effective monitor FSD Beta. How does my personal turning preference have anything to do with me being able to monitor FSD. Nothing.

Worse yet, if you actually slow down quickly for safety, you are again demerited for that.
 

mongo

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2017
13,789
44,178
Michigan
Having no accidents is your best indication of a safe driver because it means you have a driver who drives safely and is also defensive in trying to avoid potential accidents.
The conclusion does not follow from the premise.
A safe driver can be involved in an accident caused by an unsafe driver.
A safe driver can prevent some potential accident induced by an unsafe driver.
Lack of accidents does not prove the driving was safe.
Example: Running a traffic control device only results in an accident if another car is in the intersection simultaneously; and only results in a ticket if an officer is present.

I am especially bothered by being demerited for slowing down suddenly. Safe driving requires this if you live in an area where people may cut you off, especially during rush hour traffic. Being demerited for slowing down to avoid hitting a deer or add some space between someone who just cut in front of you is just pure nonsense.
That parameter is a percentage of braking events. 1 hard stop in 100 stops is the same as 3 in 300.
It's been in Early access for a while.

People have been not talking about access to some "pool."

They have bene asking for what was promised year after year for 3+ years after they paid a bunch of money for a feature that was promised years ago.
The safety score is currently only relevent to the testing pool of beta V 10.x, general access FSD is still in the future.
 

Sporty

Member
Apr 20, 2019
200
152
Seattle
This is my problem with it.

There is zero context. I'm a very careful driver, if I'm cut off, I immediately slow down if there is no one behind me so that if the person who cuts me off suddenly stops, I have room to react. This is safe driving behavior for DC driving but you get demerited for that.

Same with deer. My regular commute takes me to an area with lots of deer. I immediately slow down when I see a deer because chances are there are more if I see one and again you lose points for that safe behavior.

Plus any attempt to occasionally enjoy the car you bought and you are again screwed.

I mean if someone specs a Performance Model S with FSD, they should really tell you you are wasting your money because in order to monitor FSD Beta apparently you can no longer enjoy your car as if the two were connected in any logical way.
The P upgrade is great! (Once you get over the fact that you’ll need to replace the T provided wheels :).

The upsell to be warned about is FSD. It’s a marvel of engineering. An impressive technical feat. But the version I have is not generally usable. (I’ll add ‘for me’ to that statement so I don’t get too blasted). If you’re going to not buy some feature it would be FSD . It’s not ready. And when it is ready, there’s a good chance they sell it as an add on.

Anyway.. I bought it. And I’d take it regardless of how good it is. I’m comfortable that I can use it safely.
 

DCEV

Member
Mar 25, 2019
956
712
Washington DC
You can’t trust their beta safety rating system but trust their beta FSD?
Yes.

Because I am monitoring FSD Beta and if it puts me, other road users, or my car in any danger, I intervene. I trust it to drive as much as I trust Autopilot. Basically monitor what the car is doing, monitor what the other road users are doing, and keep an eye all around you to make sure everyone is safe and intervene when needed.

It's a total false premise false equivalency that their "safety" rating has anything to do with you being able to safely monitor FSD Beta.
 

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