Santa Clara County retroactively Changing ESS Rules

[BGbreeder]

Thanks for the information.

Grrr. Eye roll over here. It is annoying to have folks second guessing a UL standard, post facto. Standards are supposed to be..."standards". Guidance is a suggestion.

I wonder why SCC fire feels that they know more about this than anyone else. It isn't as if the Tesla factory is on their turf or that there have been a slew of fires in Santa Clara county due to ESS or EVs even. I really fail to see why they might or think that they might have special information on UL9540A.

All the best,

BG

 

[YRide]

To get back to being able to use stacking kits and 10" separation, Tesla can do the testing required by the newest release of UL9540, this will just take a bit of time. Since its only one jurisdiction, I do not know how many resources they will throw at this however. I imagine it wont significantly accelerate the timeline they already had in place for testing before the July 1 2021 effective date, unless a bunch of jurisdictions pick this up early.

Rewiring existing alarm systems will absolutely be a significant burden to some jobs, without a good technology solution.

For your install, you could build a shade structure pretty easily, to shade the powerwalls, and it may be cheaper in the end than dealing with the garage install.



You likely had a permit issued before Dec 20 2019. This seemed to be the cutoff date. Also this is only effecting unincorporated areas of SC County jurisdiction, also cities of Los Gatos, and likely Campbell.

Just wondering if things expanded into different cities within SCC? Or did these new limits/interpretations apply only to un-incorporated SCC, Los Gatos and Campbell?

Is the city of San Jose impacted? Or could you install two powerwall 2's, stacked, inside an attached garage (not conditioned, but with sheetrock throughout) without having to add the heat-detector and have it trigger the rest of the house's alarms?

 

[YRide]

Just wondering if things expanded into different cities within SCC? Or did these new limits/interpretations apply only to un-incorporated SCC, Los Gatos and Campbell?

Is the city of San Jose impacted? Or could you install two powerwall 2's, stacked, inside an attached garage (not conditioned, but with sheetrock throughout) without having to add the heat-detector and have it trigger the rest of the house's alarms?

Sigh...it's late, and there was a lot to digest reading through this thread, the mikeholt thread referenced, and a few others.

It would appear that:

1) Tesla is still not approved for UL9540A, at least in Santa Clara County (they did the test, but not accepted by SCCF for unknown reasons).
2) "Santa Clara County" now means R327.7 is in affect for all of SCC, not just un-incorporated SCC, Campbell, LG, Los Altos, etc. It would also include San Jose?
3) the requirement remains a) to have 3" between PW's (so now stacking), b) 3" between inhabitable windows/doors (garage doors/windows not accessing the dwelling are not an issue) and c) a heat detector (of which there is only one product that suffices?) but that no longer has to be interconnected the the rest of the home fire alarm system
4) if PW(s) installed in the garage on either the front wall or side walls (isn't that the only three walls assuming there is a garage door on the 4th wall?) then you need some pretty crazy, space consuming, bollards?

Did I get that correct?

I have Tesla Solar/PW design team coming out in August. Had 8.8kW + 2 PW's...but it looks like the PW's will not work/fit now....sigh.

Thanks all for the insight on this thread from everyone...especially @Vines . You are incredibly passionate about this. It almost makes me want to get involved in gov't. Almost.

YR

 

[BGbreeder]

@YRide #3 is three feet /3'/36" clearance from doors/windows into living spaces and from any Powerwall. (I'm sure it was just a late night typo on your part, but just in case...)

Just as a design item, Powerwalls don't have to be inside, and they don't have to be attached to the house.

All the best,

BG

 

[Benjamin Brooks]

Just wondering if things expanded into different cities within SCC? Or did these new limits/interpretations apply only to un-incorporated SCC, Los Gatos and Campbell?

Is the city of San Jose impacted? Or could you install two powerwall 2's, stacked, inside an attached garage (not conditioned, but with sheetrock throughout) without having to add the heat-detector and have it trigger the rest of the house's alarms?

San Jose can do stacked PW2 in attached garage. Our garage does have sprinkler system though. Heat detector Tesla added in garage didn't need to be attached to whole home system.

 

[YRide]

@YRide #3 is three feet /3'/36" clearance from doors/windows into living spaces and from any Powerwall. (I'm sure it was just a late night typo on your part, but just in case...)

Just as a design item, Powerwalls don't have to be inside, and they don't have to be attached to the house.

All the best,

BG

Thanks @BGbreeder …yes, you caught the typo…meant 3’ / 36” for #3.

But just wanted to confirm, as of July 1, 2021…this requirement is now ALL of cities within SCC? Or is it only the unincorporated and select cities listed over the past few pages?

Does anyone have specific & recent (permits after July 1, 2021) experience in the city of San Jose?

I think I saw early @Vines indicate that San Jose was relatively easy to pull permits, but then mention something about mistakes could be costly. I’m not sure I quite got the comment fully.

Is it reasonable assumption that Tesla design crew will be up to speed on they latest for SJ? Or do I need to do a lot of validation myself just to make sure what is and isn’t allowed as of July 2022?

 

[YRide]

San Jose can do stacked PW2 in attached garage. Our garage does have sprinkler system though. Heat detector Tesla added in garage didn't need to be attached to whole home system.

Thx @Benjamin Brooks .

Is sprinkler system a requirement? I haven’t see that anywhere. Or is it just going above and beyond (off topic, but sprinkler system and lots of DC / AC in enclosed room…is that its own problem? I guess if you’re on fire maybe not a primary issue at that point).

When you say garage…do you mean you have a SFH with a 1/2/3-car garage? Or is this like condor or other multi family dwelling? Did you have to have the bollards installed? If so, size and spacing?

These permits were pulled after 7/1/21?

 

[BGbreeder]

Thx @Benjamin Brooks .

Is sprinkler system a requirement? I haven’t see that anywhere. Or is it just going above and beyond (off topic, but sprinkler system and lots of DC / AC in enclosed room…is that its own problem? I guess if you’re on fire maybe not a primary issue at that point).

When you say garage…do you mean you have a SFH with a 1/2/3-car garage? Or is this like condor or other multi family dwelling? Did you have to have the bollards installed? If so, size and spacing?

These permits were pulled after 7/1/21?

Given the intensity of a battery fire, a sprinkler is just going to buy you valuable time to escape. And I do think it is valuable time. Once you have a fire, human safety is the prime concern, then other considerations like fighting or lifting the spread of fire. Saving equipment, house, are all secondary. OTOH...Even if it was functional, would you even want to have a battery that had been 36" away from one that burned?

FWIW: many insurers offer discounts for sprinkler equipped dwellings.

All the best,

BG

 

[YRide]

Given the intensity of a battery fire, a sprinkler is just going to buy you valuable time to escape. And I do think it is valuable time. Once you have a fire, human safety is the prime concern, then other considerations like fighting or lifting the spread of fire. Saving equipment, house, are all secondary. OTOH...Even if it was functional, would you even want to have a battery that had been 36" away from one that burned?

FWIW: many insurers offer discounts for sprinkler equipped dwellings.

All the best,

BG

Is a battery fire quelled by water? If a battery chemical compound is in thermal runaway, doesn't that just keep burning even with water (i guess unless fully submerged)? I just dont have any background in this. By an interesting one to pose to my firefighter friends.

Interesting point on the insurance reduction. I'll take a look into what sprinklers might cost...

I'll need to double check the house plans (I didnt build, but new ground up construction pretty recently) but I'm pretty sure there is a special sheetrock requirement as a fire block when garage is attached and has living space above (partial overhang).

But just to close on the original question, in SJ, there wasn't a requirement of sprinkler system, was there in order to do 2xPW2 stacked inside an attached garage? The requirement for stacked and inside attached garage in SJ for permits after 7/1/21 is

1) 3' away from door/window that accesses residential dwelling,
2) standalone garage heat detector (does not have to be interconnected into house), and
3) bollards

If that is correct...which heat detector do you use? Also, what is the bollard qty & spacing requirement? Is the latter documented anywhere?

Thanks!!

 

[Benjamin Brooks]

Thx @Benjamin Brooks .

Is sprinkler system a requirement? I haven’t see that anywhere. Or is it just going above and beyond (off topic, but sprinkler system and lots of DC / AC in enclosed room…is that its own problem? I guess if you’re on fire maybe not a primary issue at that point).

When you say garage…do you mean you have a SFH with a 1/2/3-car garage? Or is this like condor or other multi family dwelling? Did you have to have the bollards installed? If so, size and spacing?

These permits were pulled after 7/1/21?

SFH with 3 car attached garage. Sprinkler not a requirement just don't know if that makes the city inspectors happier about stacking them inside in San Jose... anyway yes, my permits were pulled after July 1 2021

 

[YRide]

SFH with 3 car attached garage. Sprinkler not a requirement just don't know if that makes the city inspectors happier about stacking them inside in San Jose... anyway yes, my permits were pulled after July 1 2021

Did you have to install bollards? Any chance you could throw up a pic of that...or a design of the spacing that was required?

Have a tight 2car, thinking bollards might next out this option just from space perspective.

 

[Benjamin Brooks]

Did you have to install bollards? Any chance you could throw up a pic of that...or a design of the spacing that was required?

Have a tight 2car, thinking bollards might next out this option just from space perspective.

Didn't have to install bollards. Likely because the PWs ended up being parallel to our parking path and not perpendicular (i.e. in the drive path)

 

[wwhitney]

This post has some specific suggestions of hardware for a small standalone smoke detector system with a heat alarm rated 194F, since those are not available as an interconnected heat alarm under UL 217:

Heat Detection for Energy Storage Systems

I have been volunteered to canvas and (hopefully) find out how other California jurisdictions are handling this wide-open-to-interpretation “reasonable alternatives”. Storage System operating conditions for ambient temperature are usually well above the 100-degree F mentioned in the bulletin...

xenforo.mikeholt.com

Of course, that wouldn't cause the interconnected smoke alarms to go off.

And in another thread at mikeholt.com I ran across a relay module for interconnected smoke alarms that will let the mechanical heat detector sound the alarms:

Smoke Alarm Relay Module SM120X | Kidde

SM120X can be used to activate auxiliary warning devices such as external bells and sirens, hallway or stairway lighting.

www.kidde.com

If you download the manual, you will see that this module can either activate a 120V device whenever the smoke alarms go off, or cause the smoke alarms to go off whenever a switch is closed (pull station or heat detector). See Figure 3.

So that means a complete solution for a garage which is too hot for the usual interconnected heat detectors is a 194F mechanical heat detector wired to the interconnected relay module, with the relay module outside the garage in conditioned space.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[paladaxar]

Has anyone else gotten powerwalls installed in San Jose recently? I'm also wondering about the bollards.

So far it seems we have just one report in this thread of someone who got powerwalls in SJ (Benjamin Brooks) and wasn't required to put in bollards.

We had the site survey guys out today and they said that they don't have to install bollards right now, but they'll "come back a few months or a year or so later to install them...free of charge of course". It seems like if the installation passes inspection right now, then it would be grandfathered into not requiring bollards...but I'm not sure if I'm willing to take that chance. I don't want to lose a parking spot in our garage...it's a fairly tight 2 car garage to begin with.

Does anyone have any insights on that? Or a link to the current requirements?

 

[paladaxar]

@Vines - Do you know if there is anything official in that regard? Whether bollards are required in San Jose or not?

 

[Vines]

This depends on the location, and the interpretation of the inspector.

In San Jose, the inspectors have all the power, you cannot assume that requirements like impact protection will be settled at plan check.

My opinion is that if your units are out of the danger zone, likely impact protection is not required.

 

[Electrph]

This depends on the location, and the interpretation of the inspector.

In San Jose, the inspectors have all the power, you cannot assume that requirements like impact protection will be settled at plan check.

My opinion is that if your units are out of the danger zone, likely impact protection is not required.

View attachment 832936

oh my god becky ... look at that diagram

 

[BGbreeder]

Doesn't having all the power in an individual at a non-central location strike anyone as a system ripe for malfeasance?

It just seems like a bad process to me, and I admit that my views are colored by having lived in areas where corruption was commonplace.

 

[h2ofun]

This depends on the location, and the interpretation of the inspector.

In San Jose, the inspectors have all the power, you cannot assume that requirements like impact protection will be settled at plan check.

My opinion is that if your units are out of the danger zone, likely impact protection is not required.

View attachment 832936

IMO, that drawing totally makes sense!!! Another reason to not put in ones garage

 

[Vines]

IMO, that drawing totally makes sense!!! Another reason to not put in ones garage

I created this diagram with input from Fire Officials, Permit Officials and a Structural Engineer to generate the values. It will be code in California starting on January 1 2023.