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Saw 6 Model Xs in final inspection area on the factory tour today!
- Thread starter ChocoboLee
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- Model X
Did the tour today. My third time in the factory. Yes, I signed an NDA each time. I will say this: I saw multiple Model X being built and a lot of Model S being built. More S than X, unsurprisingly. The tour was a blast, had a great guide who was very enthusiastic and knowledgable. I love watching the robots at work, and the employees working hard. Go Tesla!
That's all I'm going to say. [emoji3]
...except for this: like almost everyone, I suspect, I did not read the NDA I signed today at the Fremont factory. My experience with NDA's in the business world is that they specifically apply to information that is proprietary to the business operation of the company that the NDA applies to. So in this case, the fact that I saw Model S and X being built on an assembly line, and other general information of that nature, is not proprietary and in fact has already been publicly stated by Tesla. My point is, an NDA does not necessarily prohibit the person signing it from disclosing anything they might learn in their interactions with the company. Again, I did not read the Tesla factory tour NDA today. Next time I will!
That's all I'm going to say. [emoji3]
...except for this: like almost everyone, I suspect, I did not read the NDA I signed today at the Fremont factory. My experience with NDA's in the business world is that they specifically apply to information that is proprietary to the business operation of the company that the NDA applies to. So in this case, the fact that I saw Model S and X being built on an assembly line, and other general information of that nature, is not proprietary and in fact has already been publicly stated by Tesla. My point is, an NDA does not necessarily prohibit the person signing it from disclosing anything they might learn in their interactions with the company. Again, I did not read the Tesla factory tour NDA today. Next time I will!
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It seems to me that such posting can serve a very useful anticipatory heading-off of NDA violations for those who will be heading down to the factory in the future. That, I would argue, far outweighs whatever 'meddling-tone offense" that a post like that could engender.
Taking a factory tour can be and for just about every participant is a splendid experience. Let's all do whatever we can to prevent TM from shutting down the tours.
Taking a factory tour can be and for just about every participant is a splendid experience. Let's all do whatever we can to prevent TM from shutting down the tours.
jeffro01
Active Member
How is it possible the concept of an NON DISCLOSURE AGREEMENT could be misunderstood??? Anything you see, ANYTHING, on that tour is is not something you are supposed to disclose, at all, period, without discussion. Why is that so complicated? Furthermore why attack Bonnie for pointing out that reality?
Jeff
Jeff
I believe I did sign an NDA but the way they made me sign it made it too easy for me to not realize what I signed. I was handed an ipad and asked to fill out the details. I filled it out and hit submit. There may or may not have been a link to an NDA that I might have agreed to when I submitted my info. Given that I was very excited about the tour, I may have missed it. The tour guide did mention no pictures and no calls. Never take your phone out of your pocket. He also said something to the effect that please keep whatever you see to yourself.
I was very excited to see these Model X's and decided to post about it. It briefly occurred to me that I might be under NDA. But I didn't think too much about it because I don't think mentioning seeing Model X's is covered by the NDA. Like others have mentioned, it's public information that they build Model X's at the Fremont factory and that they are currently building founder Model X's. So I'm not sure what I'm leaking by confirming that I saw 6 Model X's in the final inspection area. I did not see their VIN #s and do not know if they are founders or signature cars.
I do agree that NDA's are important. If I saw something that's non-public, I would not leak that info. I don't think it applies in this case.
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I think it is you that have a hard time understanding what NDAs are. It's for non-disclosure of confidential information. It's not non-disclosure of EVERYTHING you see.
I was very excited to see these Model X's and decided to post about it. It briefly occurred to me that I might be under NDA. But I didn't think too much about it because I don't think mentioning seeing Model X's is covered by the NDA. Like others have mentioned, it's public information that they build Model X's at the Fremont factory and that they are currently building founder Model X's. So I'm not sure what I'm leaking by confirming that I saw 6 Model X's in the final inspection area. I did not see their VIN #s and do not know if they are founders or signature cars.
I do agree that NDA's are important. If I saw something that's non-public, I would not leak that info. I don't think it applies in this case.
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I think it is you that have a hard time understanding what NDAs are. It's for non-disclosure of confidential information. It's not non-disclosure of EVERYTHING you see.
jeffro01
Active Member
Really??? Is the factory open to the general public? No, it's not. It's open to invited guests who must sign an agreement saying they will not disclose anything they see. I don't remotely understand why you, or anyone else for that matter, thinks that they are exempt because the public knows about it? This would be an entirely different conversation if anyone could walk up and get a tour but that's simply not the case. What I fear is that Tesla will start restricting, or completely eliminating, the factory tour aspect of the ownership experience because some can't seem to understand what a Non Disclosure Agreement means...
Jeff
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Man where is the face palm meme when I need it... Ugh... Think about what you just typed, how are you to know what is confidential and what isn't? You don't, that's why you sign the freaking agreement and why you should keep your mouth\keyboard shut after the fact.
Jeff
Saying you saw 6 Model Xs on the tour is not material information. There is no violation of an NDA since it is commonly available information that Tesla is producing a new model with expected deliveries this year. The fact that you saw those new models during the tour is no different than you posting that you had seen 6 Model S during the tour. They are also known to be produced and would be expected to be visible during a factory tour.
If you would have said "I took the tour and saw the entire manufacturing process and I only counted 6 model Xs the entire time I was there", THAT could be a material statement that someone could have traded on. But the fact is you didn't see everything, you only saw what Tesla allowed you to see, and you didn't state that you only saw 6 total Xs, you just saw 6 finished in a specific area.
Lots of hysterics on TMC......
If you would have said "I took the tour and saw the entire manufacturing process and I only counted 6 model Xs the entire time I was there", THAT could be a material statement that someone could have traded on. But the fact is you didn't see everything, you only saw what Tesla allowed you to see, and you didn't state that you only saw 6 total Xs, you just saw 6 finished in a specific area.
Lots of hysterics on TMC......
jeffro01
Active Member
You would be factually wrong based on every NDA I've ever read and signed, and I've read and signed a lot of them over the years due to the nature of the work that I perform from time to time. I don't have the exact verbiage of the Tesla factory tour NDA but when I go on mine next week I'll be sure to read it and correct anything that I've mistyped based on what's in the actual agreement. However, I have never seen an NDA that allows you to disclose what you see simply because the public knew it was there...
Jeff
If Tesla did not want me to make that decision about what's confidential and what's not, then they should not have made the NDA say this:
They should have made me sign something that says I cannot disclose ANYTHING and not limit it to Confidential Information as stated in their NDA!
I saw them building Model S's in the factory. Is that covered under the NDA? No, because it's not valuable to Tesla and is publicly known. The same applies to Model X. If I saw a prototype Model 3, that would be covered.
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The NDA I found online: https://juicedtech.quickbase.com/up/bggw6a6gd/g/rc7/eh/va/Visitor%20Agreement.pdf
Canuck
Well-Known Member
Really? That's strange since they don't say that in their NDA. I am of the view that Tesla gives the tours to generate interest, to get people excited, and talking about Tesla and the tour! But this is a working factory and, by chance (and not design like the Model X's left purposely on display) some information not intended to be seen could accidentally be seen. Hence, the NDA's definition of "confidential information" in clause 1 (which I quoted before but here's the entire agreement):
https://juicedtech.quickbase.com/up/bggw6a6gd/g/rc7/eh/va/Visitor Agreement.pdf
I would think if your view of "ANYTHING" seen is not to be disclosed was Tesla's intention, then it would be stated as such in the NDA. Either Tesla's lawyers don't know how to draft a NDA to cover what you are saying (which is very easy to do and thus the Tesla lawyers must be incompetent, which makes no sense), or what I am saying is more in line with Tesla's intentions, as evidenced by the specific wording of the NDA.
We can let readers draw their own conclusions.
(Sorry, Bonnie, we will have to agree to disagree on this one but it would be no fun if we always agreed -- and I always respect and value your opinion -- it's just Jeff's opinion I don't like
. The personal attacks against you for having an honest and sincere opinion are way out of line. It's getting sad around here lately in that regard.)Here's a real, and much better, actual leak to talk about:
Tesla Model 3 Leaks… Small Ones (CleanTechnica Exclusive) ~ Moncton Free Press
Agreed.
In this case, the NDA is an agreement between me and Tesla. It's not up to anyone else to decide who's wrong or right. I read the agreement (though I have to admit after I already disclosed this information) and don't think that what I'm disclosing is materials that are valuable to Tesla and not publicly known. If Tesla disagrees and feel like I have wronged them, they can sue me and we can let the courts decide. I think I have a strong case that Model X's in final inspection in a Tesla factory is not confidential information. Whether or not I'm right or not is not for anyone else to decide... no matter how many other NDA's he/she has signed in his/her lifetime.
jeffro01
Active Member
Really? That's strange since they don't say that in their NDA. I am of the view that Tesla gives the tours to generate interest, to get people excited, and talking about Tesla and the tour! But this is a working factory and, by chance (and not design like the Model X's left purposely on display) some information not intended to be seen could accidentally be seen. Hence, the NDA's definition of "confidential information" in clause 1 (which I quoted before but here's the entire agreement):
https://juicedtech.quickbase.com/up/bggw6a6gd/g/rc7/eh/va/Visitor Agreement.pdf
I would think if your view of "ANYTHING" seen is not to be disclosed was Tesla's intention, then it would be stated as such in the NDA. Either Tesla's lawyers don't know how to draft a NDA to cover what you are saying (which is very easy to do and thus the Tesla lawyers must be incompetent, which makes no sense), or what I am saying is more in line with Tesla's intentions, as evidenced by the specific wording of the NDA.
We can let readers draw their own conclusions.
(Sorry, Bonnie, we will have to agree to disagree on this one but it would be no fun if we always agreed -- and I always respect and value your opinion -- it's just Jeff's opinion I don't like
Here's a real, and much better, actual leak to talk about:
Tesla Model 3 Leaks… Small Ones (CleanTechnica Exclusive) ~ Moncton Free Press
I hadn't seen the NDA text until you linked to it, whether that's my fault for being lazy or otherwise...
Jeff
hockeythug
Active Member
I don't consider reporting on seeing a car who's "deliveries" allegedly started in 3Q confidential.
MitchJi
Trying to learn kindness, patience & forgiveness
I just called my local store (Corte Madera, CA) and they told me they were told Q1. My previous calls they told me they were told by the end of the year.
Owner
Active Member
When I took the tour in early 2013 they did not request anyone to sign a NDA. They did however prohibit cameras and walking in particular areas.
This was back when you walked through the factory and the guide walked backwards while talking to you.
This was back when you walked through the factory and the guide walked backwards while talking to you.
aesculus
Still Trying to Figure This All Out
No but numbers of cars in the process, features as well as ratios of MS to MX could be. When you have big backlogs of demand for MX for years waiting versus people who just ordered an MS and will get it in less than a month, those numbers could infer something, right or wrong.
So why it is not TOP SECRET, it might not be something Tesla wants disclosed.
gizmoboy
Member
There is typically a clause to this exact effect in pretty much every NDA I've ever signed. Let me skim through one and grab a snippet...
"The Confidentiality of any Information thought to be “confidential” shall terminate if and when the Recipient can document that the information thought to be Confidential: (a) was in the public domain at the time it was communicated to the Recipient by the other party; (b) entered the public domain subsequent to the time it was communicated to the Recipient by the other party through no fault of the Recipient; (c) was in the Recipient’s possession free of any obligation of confidence at the time it was communicated to the Recipient by the other party; (d) was rightfully communicated to the Recipient free of any obligation of confidence subsequent to the time it was communicated to the Recipient by the other party; or (e) was communicated by the other party to an unaffiliated third party free of any obligation of confidence"
(Emphasis added for discussion purposes.) Plenty of exceptions for information that is public knowledge. And this one is pretty typical, in my experience.
At the opening of the Tesla store at Stanford a few weeks back I asked the Regional Sales Manager of the NW when he expected Model Xs to be hitting the gallery floors, and he said Q1 as well.
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