Saw a Performance Dual Motor Model 3 today at the track!

[bxr140]

How do you know it won’t have M3 level handling?

Because that’s not what Tesla does, and because that IS what the M division does. The bmw m3 is the result of decades evolving not just a series of chassis, but literally the evolution of vehicle dynamics itself. Its straight crazy to think it will be anything close to the real performance limits of the bmw.

Dot get me wrong, I expect the model 3P to be a very capable for pretty much all of us, including me. But a bmw m3 it is not.

 

[voip-ninja]

Maybe the first Dual motor cars will only be available with the "P" option to keep the selling price as high as possible. The $3600.00 Dual motor option may be as elusive as a $35000.00 base model.

Extremely doubtful. Tesla knows from the 'manage my reservation' page how many owners have a preference for AWD. They also know what their profit margins will be on the option. It would be mind boggling obtuse for them to delay delivery of a very high demand option that they also will make a huge margin on any further than necessary.

 

[kbM3]

Because that’s not what Tesla does, and because that IS what the M division does. The bmw m3 is the result of decades evolving not just a series of chassis, but literally the evolution of vehicle dynamics itself. Its straight crazy to think it will be anything close to the real performance limits of the bmw.

Dot get me wrong, I expect the model 3P to be a very capable for pretty much all of us, including me. But a bmw m3 it is not.

Maybe. But they seem to have hit the basic 3series level handling in their first attempt.

I know the M division has that legacy, and you may end up being right, but don’t bet too hard against Tesla’s brain trust.

 

[NeverFollow]

Just pointing out... Tesla's web site right now says the Model S is 0.23.

You correctly point out the page where they say it's 0.24. Which is it?

How does the M3 achieve a lower drag coefficient than the MS? | Tesla

"But despite looking like a shortened Model S, the Model 3 doesn't have a higher drag coefficient.
In fact, it has a lower one (0.23, compared to 0.24 for the Model S)."​

 

[shrspeedblade]

I wonder if the facelift and the 19" turbines lowered the Model S cd .01?

 

[cizUK]

Because that’s not what Tesla does, and because that IS what the M division does. The bmw m3 is the result of decades evolving not just a series of chassis, but literally the evolution of vehicle dynamics itself. Its straight crazy to think it will be anything close to the real performance limits of the bmw.

Dot get me wrong, I expect the model 3P to be a very capable for pretty much all of us, including me. But a bmw m3 it is not.

Don't forget the characteristics of electric (weight down low etc) lends itself to better handling

 

[FlyNavy01]

Don't forget the characteristics of electric (weight down low etc) lends itself to better handling

Yes, but weighing well over 4,000lbs does not. Also air suspension just about guarantees it won't be anywhere near the same level as a BMW M3, and I say this as someone who is deferring for the P model.

 

[mongo]

Yes, but weighing well over 4,000lbs does not. Also air suspension just about guarantees it won't be anywhere near the same level as a BMW M3, and I say this as someone who is deferring for the P model.

Lighter is better, less mass to accelerate and control (suspension damping and spring rate), but if your thrust can max out the tire traction, is it that big of a deal?

 

[ℬête Noire]

Lighter is better, less mass to accelerate and control (suspension damping and spring rate), but if your thrust can max out the tire traction, is it that big of a deal?

As a vehicle's mass increases it slowly diminishes the friction co-effciect for the tires. So your lateral traction, for cornering, drops and you need a higher power/kg to keep the same acceleration when that acceleration in near the traction limits.

EDIT: Oh, and big deal for braking too as heavy braking is basically always at the traction limits.

 

[ecarfan]

First, thanks to @sreams for his exciting find! Nice work.

Still shocked you didn't take pictures of the car itself

I’m not surprised. Except for the red brake calipers the Performance 3 very likely looks exactly like the 3 currently in production that I am seeing every day on SF Bay Area roads.

I wouldn't be surprised if the top of the line 3 exceeds the price of the base S.

I think that is likely. A fully loaded Dual Motor Performance 3 will probably cost more than a base S 75 at US$74,500. But I suspect not much more. At least I hope not...

Maybe the first Dual motor cars will only be available with the "P" option

I don’t think that will be the case. So far Tesla has officially announced the Dual Motor 3 is coming this quarter. They have said nothing officially about the Performance version as far as I know. A lot of 3 reservation holders are anxiously awaiting Dual Motor to show up in their configuration pages and then they will finalize their orders. To force those people to also pay for the Performance option if they want their 3 soon will really upset them.

 

[shrspeedblade]

A current M3's curb weight is 3540 lbs. It's carrying that weight up higher in the car, too.
I've owned an M3, it was a superb car (except for reliability). However, there's nothing supernatural about them.
Hey, up to the current generation my lowly Mustang was showing them its taillights at the road course!

 

[Daniel in SD]

I don't think handling will be what makes it slower than an M3. The problems:

• Weight. It weighs more than an M3
• Cooling. We have a data point that says that the battery and motor cooling is better than the Model S but that was on a cold day and a more powerful Model 3 will require more cooling.
• Brakes. Tesla needs to get large enough brakes with good ventilation (and the aerodynamic sacrifice that requires). The M3 is available with ceramic brakes.
• Horsepower. The power drops off quite a bit at track speeds. The M3 has a 7 speed transmission. I'm not sure how Tesla could reasonably solve this.

I just don't see it happening with the first performance version.

 

[mongo]

As a vehicle's mass increases it slowly diminishes the friction co-effciect for the tires. So your lateral traction, for cornering, drops and you need a higher power/kg to keep the same acceleration when that acceleration in near the traction limits.

EDIT: Oh, and big deal for braking too as braking is basically always at the traction limits.

That is interesting about the change in friction due to loading, I'd never heard of that, definitely a factor. Good link on it.
And sure, braking power would need to scale along with engine/ motor power to match increase in weight, (too much to hope for high regen)

 

[voip-ninja]

Yes, but weighing well over 4,000lbs does not. Also air suspension just about guarantees it won't be anywhere near the same level as a BMW M3, and I say this as someone who is deferring for the P model.

M3, RS4, etc., are track weapons that double as daily drivers, not the other way around. Performance version of S, while blazing fast, isn't even suited for use on a track.

 

[JRP3]

They have said nothing officially about the Performance version as far as I know.

At one point Elon tweeted mid 2018 I think, not that it's written in stone of course.

 

[MXWing]

Fixed it for you. I would rather have fully loaded P/D Model 3 that would have better performance, longer range, and overall smaller more nimble car than a base Model S.

Another data point on why it's certain Tesla is gong to have to refresh the S STAT.

"Oh yeah?!?!.. I have a HUD".

<mic drop>

 

[ℬête Noire]

• Cooling. We have a data point that says that the battery and motor cooling is better than the Model S but that was on a cold day and a more powerful Model 3 will require more cooling.

Agreed. It's an encouraging sign that the RWD LR didn't show signs of requiring limiting due to heat but that doesn't tell us yet where the ceiling is when tapping into the extra %50 power output that the LR pack has in reserve. The P will need to utilize basically all that %50 to approach M3 acceleration.

 

[MP3Mike]

Agreed. It's an encouraging sign that the RWD LR didn't show signs of requiring limiting due to heat but that doesn't tell us yet where the ceiling is when tapping into the extra %50 power output that the LR pack has in reserve. The P will need to utilize basically all that %50 to approach M3 acceleration.

On the Model S the heat limiter is in the motor/invertor not the battery pack. But in any case I have faith that Tesla will have designed the Model 3P to have a large enough cooling system.

 

[ratsbew]

My guess is that the PD Model 3 is going to be very quick. They are probably going for something around 2.8 0-60. They want to make an "affordable" wow car that can get to 60 in under 3 seconds. They are going to kill the performance muscle care market (high end Mustangs, Challengers, Chargers, Cameros) by letting men buy their performance car that is also a great family car.

Hopefully the margins are great on the PD3.

 

[McRat]

We get ruffled when the anti-Tesla crowd makes baseless doom and gloom statements against Tesla. No need to reciprocate.

The Model 3P is going to be an amazing car and I'm going to buy one, but nobody in their right mind would suggest its going to out-handle a BMW M3. Nobody who's done an honest price analysis is planning to save a ton of money on a P vs the BMW either.

It can be done, but it will be a surprise if they do. The BMW M3 is not in hardcore track trim, there's meat left on the bones deliberately. It's not like what we have seen Porsche, Ford, and GM do, which is pull out the stops and make a car people won't want to drive on the street. These are made in limited numbers normally. A great example would be the 2014 Z/28 when compared to it's competition of the time. It's 3800lb without driver. It had no AC, single speaker AM/FM radio, fake back seats. If you go up a driveway at an angle, it is so stiff it will lift 1 or 2 tires off the ground. The tires are dangerous in the rain, last 2000 miles, and the fronts are 305's. These are not intended primarily for street use. 1.08g on a skidpan, and 1.5g braking at low speeds, more at high speeds due to downforce aero pieces.

So you can take a 3800lb car and make it a track weapon. It doesn't even need AWD. But ... it probably would need an expensive change to the rear axle. Either 2 motors, one per axle, or an LSD.

Tesla is not likely to do such a treatment to any of their cars. MFRs build cars like that to prove a point for a couple years, until somebody gets more hardcore. It's more marketing than an intention to sell track cars.

Track-pack price bump depends how bad the MFR wants to 'win'. The Z/28 was 3 times the base cost. So think $110k for a Model S Track Attack variant. This would do it. Carbon ceramic brakes, carbon fiber aero kit for downforce, dual rear motors, spool-valve shocks, weight reduction, lighter wheels, and expensive summer only tires. And a lot of tuning.