Saw a Performance Dual Motor Model 3 today at the track!

[McRat]

You two know that Henry Ford was competing with other automobile makers and not buggies, right? Karl Benz was competing with buggies with his Motorwagen. Ford was trying to produce automobiles faster and cheaper to sell to a larger market.

There were 3 technologies that were splitting the market.
Electrics were more, but easier to operate.
Steam was efficient, but took a long to heat up.
Gas was cheaper to produce, but the engines had to be started by hand crank.

Ford pushed the EV and Steam vehicles down the market by price.
Cadillac dealt the death blow with the electric starter motor.

 

[ℬête Noire]

You two know that Henry Ford was competing with other automobile makers and not buggies, right? Karl Benz was competing with buggies with his Motorwagen. Ford was trying to produce automobiles faster and cheaper to sell to a larger market.

Buick was Ford's competition in that way, perhaps. However who's market was Ford eating, what was he supplanting?

It wasn't Benz, although he was ultimately a buggy builder, too. I mean look at those things, buggies without a horse. ((Not the Mercedes era stuff.))

Ford was very much in competition with horse & carriage. It's just that they couldn't very well compete with him because of the fundamentals once Ford worked out how to drop the price so much. It wasn't even that he was cheaper up front so much as he was cheap enough for what he provided.

 

[mongo]

Agreed that they will probably just have one motor version. Maybe they will work with a few different inverters to save some money on mosfets depending on performance version, Semi or Roadser?? Elon said that the Semi has model 3 motors, then there is no need for a bigger or double, rear motors in the performance Model 3. Why?
Semi accelerates 0-60 in 20 seconds with 80000 Lbs. 3840 Lbs/80000 Lbs x 20 sec x4/2 motors=0-60 in 1.92 sec. Yes, aero drag and traction wasn't part of this equation, but otherwise, weight and power are fairly proportional to acceleration. Looks like 3PD will be traction limited if Tesla taps its motors for the full 'Semi' power level.

Concider also that the 3 likely has less than an eighth of the battery pack the 500 mile semi has. The semi also has a higher gear ratio, so more torque per amp/ kw. Due to this, the standard motor may be overkill when paired with a front one.

 

[Bruin1996]

I'm at Thunderhill Raceway in Willows, CA for a track day today. When I arrived, there were 4 Model 3S with manufacturer plates on them. One in particular had 20" wheels with Michelin Pilot sports, and *huge* brake rotors. I snuck my camera under the front wheel and caught a photo of the front CV axle, showing it to be dual motor. This was certainly a PD Model 3!

I would have taken more pictures, but we went in for the drivers meeting, and when we got back out, they had all left.

This thing looks like it will be a beast!

Wow! Looks like my Performance Model 3 might finally be on its way to the configurator.. hopefully it will still be cheaper than my S90D.

 

[Olle]

Concider also that the 3 likely has less than an eighth of the battery pack the 500 mile semi has. The semi also has a higher gear ratio, so more torque per amp/ kw. Due to this, the standard motor may be overkill when paired with a front one.

Sure the pack size is smaller in absolute terms, but actually bigger in relative to weight terms. Gear ratio per wheel size seems similar between Semi and 3 at least for the Semi rear Axle. The fore axle is 23:1 reduction and the aft axle is 15:1. and model 3 at around 9:1. 1 meter diameter wheel on Semi and 0.6 m on 3. 15:1 x0.6 =9:1.

like you said it seems as if the front motor will be overkill. But might be used to keep everything standardized?

One more thing: If we consider as they say "weight transfer" meaning inertia toward rear wheel traction during acceleration, the rear motor with 'Semi' power level will in reality not be powerful enough for 1.9 sec 0-60 mph. But it could continue to have great acceleration over 60 when both motors get traction. Question is just where Tesla wants to put the limit on things, but the bones of this car seem to be ready for sick performance

Semi gear reduction ratios

 

[Moderatefan]

Here's a nice EV. And seats positioned towards the center of the cabin, since AP(automobile pilot) takes care of the driving.

Similar to concepts 100 years later
Top view of electric car interior. Front seats turned around..

 

[mongo]

Sure the pack size is smaller. Gear ratio per wheel size seems similar between Semi and 3 at least for the Semi rear Axle. The fore axle is 23:1 reduction and the aft axle is 15:1. and model 3 at around 9:1. 1 meter diameter wheel on Semi and 0.6 m on 3. 15:1 x0.6 =9:1.

Semi gear reduction ratios

Yah, you're right, forgot the tire size difference. The 23:1 axle is still 50% steeper though (or am I off again).

 

[Olle]

Yah, you're right, forgot the tire size difference. The 23:1 axle is still 50% steeper though (or am I off again).

Yes Semi front axle is 50% more reduction than current model 3. Speaking of Semi; to all of those who predict that Model 3 would overheat on the track... If its the same motors and inverters, consider how a semi is driven. Potentially pulling 80000 Lbs up a mountain pass at full power... Case closed.

 

[MP3Mike]

Yes Semi front axle is 50% more reduction than current model 3. Speaking of Semi; to all of those who predict that Model 3 would overheat on the track... If its the same motors and inverters, consider how a semi is driven. Potentially pulling 80000 Lbs up a mountain pass at full power... Case closed.

Yep, the motor will no longer be the bottleneck. It could be the battery now.

 

[daniloreyes]

I'm at Thunderhill Raceway in Willows, CA for a track day today. When I arrived, there were 4 Model 3S with manufacturer plates on them. One in particular had 20" wheels with Michelin Pilot sports, and *huge* brake rotors. I snuck my camera under the front wheel and caught a photo of the front CV axle, showing it to be dual motor. This was certainly a PD Model 3!

I would have taken more pictures, but we went in for the drivers meeting, and when we got back out, they had all left.

This thing looks like it will be a beast!

Any other pics ?

 

[Bobfitz1]

I think it makes sense for all D's to be P's unless P's also have bigger brakes. So you buy a D now and a year down the road decide to unlock the extra power for $20k-ish. Less for Tesla to manage on the assembly line. Heck i think they should just make one car that you can just unlock a bunch of stuff on - Make them all big battery that can be limited to standard or unlocked to performance. This would also allow more options/revenue after resale for Tesla and consumer.

There will be a D and immediately or soon after a P. It's highly likely the D will have part of battery pack's max delivered power locked. The P won't have a bigger pack, so only it will get the full current the pack is capable of delivering.
What may be offered soon or in a year or two, is an offer to partly unlock a M3 D for $x K. That would give buyers of AWD
the option of two AWD performance levels short of a full P.

 

[Bobfitz1]

There would be industries devoted to hacking Tesla's to unlock them. They already exist even for just batteries unlocks right now.
You'd have complete dumbazz turds that turn on everything, take their car into Tesla and complain when warranty was violated. Then they would complain - I PAID for this object and all of its included components car so i am entitled to everything it is capable of. You know not what you ask for...

Such DTs can complain all the want, but would have no leg to stand on. There is a reason any corporate warranty goes through careful legal review.

 

[Bobfitz1]

Thank you for posting this steams. It's the best Tesla news I've seen in awhile. I'm a little over 3 weeks after configuring but I still don't regret my decision to pull the trigger now. I think we are about 8 months out from being able to order Performance and I plan to trade in my first production car when it is available. Can't wait for the reveal of specs!

Don't forget that it is close to certain the M3D will have significant faster 0 - 60 time than LR rear motor version.
Based on history with MS, adding Dual motor is a 5K option, so for M3 4 - 5K. There may be no upgrades needed to other suspension components when dual motor is added. If there are some, they'd likely be offered as add'l cost options.

 

[Bobfitz1]

Because that’s not what Tesla does, and because that IS what the M division does. The bmw m3 is the result of decades evolving not just a series of chassis, but literally the evolution of vehicle dynamics itself. Its straight crazy to think it will be anything close to the real performance limits of the bmw.
Don't get me wrong, I expect the model 3P to be a very capable for pretty much all of us, including me. But a bmw m3 it is not.

My bet is you will be surprised if not shocked by the handling of the M3 P when it arrives. First, having center of gravity much lower than a BMW M3 gives the Tesla a better foundation for great handling. Second, BMW isn't the only company that can do a tear down on a competitor's best model to see how they can equal or exceed what it does well.

 

[Olle]

My bet is you will be surprised if not shocked by the handling of the M3 P when it arrives. First, having center of gravity much lower than a BMW M3 gives the Tesla a better foundation for great handling. Second, BMW isn't the only company that can do a tear down on a competitor's best model to see how they can equal or exceed what it does well.

On the same page with you on this. BMW M3 probably won't be able to hold a candle to the Tesla M3P handling capabilities for the reason you mentioned, low center of gravity. Add much better control of the power and Tesla's weight is more centred and the body is probably stiffer due to the battery. First principles really. It doesn't matter how good a chef you are if you have a bad recipe (i.e. 100 year old ICE vehicle architecture).

 

[Daniel in SD]

My bet is you will be surprised if not shocked by the handling of the M3 P when it arrives. First, having center of gravity much lower than a BMW M3 gives the Tesla a better foundation for great handling. Second, BMW isn't the only company that can do a tear down on a competitor's best model to see how they can equal or exceed what it does well.

I'm cautiously optimistic but remember that a BMW M5 absolutely destroys the Model S on a track. It's not clear that Tesla has any interest in competing in that space.

 

[TriTexan]

I'm cautiously optimistic but remember that a BMW M5 absolutely destroys the Model S on a track. It's not clear that Tesla has any interest in competing in that space.

Sure - cars like the M5 were designed with the track in mind. Right now Tesla has a limited number of models, and we know the Model S was intended to be a nice, luxurious car. The some engineer said, "Hey - if we dial up the amps, we can make this thing launch HARD!". So they did - mostly for the attention and press. But the core car was never built to do anything remotely performance oriented. It just HAPPENED that it could pull off one good trick.

That said - you can be 100% certain that the engineers at Tesla have read post after post with the "One trick pony!" mocking from countless detractors.

Let's take a look at the prototype Roadster 2 - it has track tires - Michelin Sport Cup 2's. The same ones on cars like the 458 Italia. And the Chiron. And so on. It runs 295 fronts and 325 rears - so lots of meat for cornering.

Now we know from this thread the mules seen appeared to have "Pilot Sport" tires - this might mean Super Sports or Sport Cup 2's. And huge brakes and 20 inch wheels DOES seem to mean someone took braking and cornering seriously. And with a potential 1000 lbs weight savings over the Model S P100D, it only stands to reason that this could be a serious competitor to the likes of the BMW M, AMG, or Audi S and RS cars.

In the end - we are talking about a company run by the same guy that runs SpaceX - so to doubt their ability to match or beat the M3 or any other performance sedan in a straight line or around a track would be at one's own peril. If you can launch spacecraft, going around a paved circuit faster than a company that only makes cars SHOULD be doable.

Yes - BMW and AMG and Audi have a good century of experience. But we have already seen Veyron-beating acceleration from the Model S which was never even designed for that. Worst case - IMHO - is that a high performance Model 3 is "just as good" at certain tasks as a BMW M3.

 

[TriTexan]

Does anyone happen to know the tire size(s) that our OP saw on these test mules? Or the actual tire model - such at Sport Cup 2 versus Super Sport?

That would tell us a lot...

 

[Moderatefan]

They were uuuuuge. Other than that, Tesla is free to replace them with any other size before sales start.

 

[bxr140]

My bet is you will be surprised if not shocked by the handling of the M3 P when it arrives.

Perhaps, but I'm expecting it to be a great handling car because of its center of gravity. However, that characteristic is one reason it won't be as good as the bmw (which is again the whole point here). Tesla knows it has a significant advantage with the under mount battery and as such know they don't need to do much work on improving the handling from the base model 3 to have a great handling and in-demand P car. Why not just slap on some big brakes and wide wheels with sticky tires and call it a day? That stuff is cheap, easy, and sells, AND improves the handling...but their sum an M3 killer does not make.

Tesla is smart enough to know that the last 20% (or whatever) to get to the bmw's performance level will cost the proverbial 80%, and they're smart enough to know that they don't need to develop a P car with equivalent handling to that bmw to maximize sales. They know the last thing they need to do is spend precious company resources on something that's not a core strength: They're a great technology company and [at best] an average car company. They don't try to compete with the great car companies on legacy playing fields because they know they can't. Instead, they blow away those companies with their disruptive solutions. Why spend tons of time and money to barely come within sight of the M3's handling when they can tweak the motor parameters and beat the M3 in acceleration, for instance? What will the magazines have to say about that?

What Tesla DOES need to do is make sure the model 3P can do more than a few laps without fading brakes or going into limp mode...which is no doubt why they were at Thunderhill in the first place.

BMW M3 probably won't be able to hold a candle to the Tesla M3P handling capabilities...

Fanboi hyperbole need not apply.