SCE: TOU-D 4-9pm or TOU-D Prime

[h2ofun]

So, there are normally two different things people are talking about, when they are talking about "SGIP". They both have the same name, from the same agency, but have different requirements.

One of them is the regular SGIP program, that has a sliding scale of incentives that have decreased over time. That one has small scale (<2 PWs) and Large scale ( 3+ powerwalls). Tesla itself does not submit at all under large scale under the regular SGIP program, and has stated that they are over subscriped for the small scale incentive.

This program is only available through some third party installer companies that have not burned through their allotment, yet.

Another thing called "SGIP" is the SGIP equity and resiliency program, which basically will pay for batteries for people who live in specific impacted areas, and have specific impacted needs (X number of power safety shutoffs, medical baseline, etc). This is a completely different set of requirements than the one above and may have different stipulations.

Most times here, people mix these up. Based on my reading here, I would guess that @tomuo is talking about equity and resiliency.

Yep, but with my SGIP, we could not even start until SGIP approved. Then until all steps are done, PTO, site inspection, ICF form, things are not submitted back to SGIP to approve the release of the reserved funds, which I just got approval today

 

[Tim-in-CA]

Dont plan on getting any SGIP from tesla... because there is a long line of people ahead of you that they would need to go through to get to you. For example, my install was January of 2020, and I was told the same thing. I got a notice from tesla in october last year which I promptly responded to, but nothing since, including me trying to follow up with tesla on it.

Of course, I purchased through tesla with the understanding that I would likely not get sgip through them, and the price when I looked at it through tesla was such that, going through any third party would have REQUIRED I get the sgip incentive to have the same price tesla was offering without the sgip being guaranteed, so if I get it, its just "found money". I dont expect to get it, though, and I suggest you have the same expectation.

(non equity and resiliency SGIP).

Yea, that's definitely my take. If I get it, then GREAT! Otherwise, I guess I can live without it.

 

[idealsol]

I got the following email from the SGIP group on 5-29
it seems to indicate 2 options
And of those, 5-8 made no sense to me
so I chose 4-9 Prime

SGIP Group​	Sat, May 29, 10:34 AM
to me, SGIP

Good Morning,

Unfortunately, TOUD 4-9pm is not one of the approved TOU rates because it does not meet the 5.2.8 Upfront Eligibility Requirements for New Residential Projects requirements.

The current Southern California Edison approved time-of-use rates are TOU-D-Prime or TOU 5-8. The current approved rates have been vetted by CPUC and approved to participate in the SGIP program.

Yes, your account must be profiled under one of the approved Time of Use rates. The outline below may help you with the process.
1. Please read and determine which of the two Time of Use rate (TOU-D-Prime or TOU-D-5-8PM) fits your needs. To obtain more information between TOU-D-Prime or TOU-D-5-8PM, be sure to visit Time-Of-Use Residential Rate Plans
2. Once made your choice contact the call center at 866-743-1645.

 

[Tim-in-CA]

I got the following email from the SGIP group on 5-29
it seems to indicate 2 options
And of those, 5-8 made no sense to me
so I chose 4-9 Prime

SGIP Group​	Sat, May 29, 10:34 AM
to me, SGIP

Good Morning,

Unfortunately, TOUD 4-9pm is not one of the approved TOU rates because it does not meet the 5.2.8 Upfront Eligibility Requirements for New Residential Projects requirements.

The current Southern California Edison approved time-of-use rates are TOU-D-Prime or TOU 5-8. The current approved rates have been vetted by CPUC and approved to participate in the SGIP program.

Yes, your account must be profiled under one of the approved Time of Use rates. The outline below may help you with the process.
1. Please read and determine which of the two Time of Use rate (TOU-D-Prime or TOU-D-5-8PM) fits your needs. To obtain more information between TOU-D-Prime or TOU-D-5-8PM, be sure to visit Time-Of-Use Residential Rate Plans
2. Once made your choice contact the call center at 866-743-1645.

Thanks for the info ... when was your PTO and when did Tesla file for your SGIP rebate?

 

[idealsol]

Thanks for the info ... when was your PTO and when did Tesla file for your SGIP rebate?

Sorry for any confusion
My system isn’t Tesla, nor do I have a powerwall
I have a Neo Volta battery ,and because I live in a fire zone, it was virtually free
i just thought the SGIP info would be helpful to the thread

 

[dlevens]

Nope. Never once paid that amount with Prime. My bill is mostly around $10. This month was $7 and last month was $5

I am confused, I show the TOU-D-Prime rate has a minimum daily 0.40 per day and no baseline credits. So not even counting the required CTC, NDC, PPPC and DWR charges (which these alone avg around $10) how are you paying only $7 or $5 if the min daily alone would be $12?

 

[dlevens]

Hoping I did not just make a huge mistake.

So I was grandfathered in on SCE TOU-D-B-SDP, which has 0.13 from 10pm to 8am and 0.20 from 8am to 2pm and then .53 from 2pm to 8pm. It was a great plan, saved a ton on charging my electric vehicle. But this grandfathered plan has a really high min daily rate of 0.71, so every month the min bill will always be $21 and then you have to pay the required CTC, NDC, PPPC, DWR which came to $12, so my first bill was $33

I have Tesla Solar 12kW and 2 PowerWalls, and already generated $73 credit with SCE in my first month, so SCE will be paying me wholesale at the end of year. So for me it is all about the monthly bill.

For me it makes sense that the cheapest plan is TOU-D-4-9 or any plan with a very low min daily basic charge and has baseline credit. Am I am understanding this right? When comparing the plans it is all about min daily basic charge and baseline credit right?

For instance comparing my old grandfathered plan which daily basic charge adds up to $21 for the month, the TOU-D-4-9 is only 0.90 cents for the entire month, saving $20.

Can anyone explain how the baseline credit works? It says on the TOU-D-4-9 plan that baseline credit is 0.07 per kWh up to 200kWh, does that mean you get the full $14 credit if you use more than 200kWh in a month? In my case for July I used 479kWh but I generated 411kWh so that leaves 68kWh net usage. But even with this 68kWh usage they said I have a credit of $73 because I earned all my credits at peak rate and only used during super off peak.

so many questions, and now I read the TOU I just switched to a few minutes ago will not work with SGIP? I can still switch to TOU-D-PRIME but assuming TOU-D-5-8 is like 4-9 with its low daily charge and baseline credit I would opt for 5-8 if it qualified me for SGIP.

Hoping someone further ahead on this journey can help clarify all this.

 

[idealsol]

Hoping I did not just make a huge mistake.

So I was grandfathered in on SCE TOU-D-B-SDP, which has 0.13 from 10pm to 8am and 0.20 from 8am to 2pm and then .53 from 2pm to 8pm. It was a great plan, saved a ton on charging my electric vehicle. But this grandfathered plan has a really high min daily rate of 0.71, so every month the min bill will always be $21 and then you have to pay the required CTC, NDC, PPPC, DWR which came to $12, so my first bill was $33

I have Tesla Solar 12kW and 2 PowerWalls, and already generated $73 credit with SCE in my first month, so SCE will be paying me wholesale at the end of year. So for me it is all about the monthly bill.

For me it makes sense that the cheapest plan is TOU-D-4-9 or any plan with a very low min daily basic charge and has baseline credit. Am I am understanding this right? When comparing the plans it is all about min daily basic charge and baseline credit right?

For instance comparing my old grandfathered plan which daily basic charge adds up to $21 for the month, the TOU-D-4-9 is only 0.90 cents for the entire month, saving $20.

Can anyone explain how the baseline credit works? It says on the TOU-D-4-9 plan that baseline credit is 0.07 per kWh up to 200kWh, does that mean you get the full $14 credit if you use more than 200kWh in a month? In my case for July I used 479kWh but I generated 411kWh so that leaves 68kWh net usage. But even with this 68kWh usage they said I have a credit of $73 because I earned all my credits at peak rate and only used during super off peak.

so many questions, and now I read the TOU I just switched to a few minutes ago will not work with SGIP? I can still switch to TOU-D-PRIME but assuming TOU-D-5-8 is like 4-9 with its low daily charge and baseline credit I would opt for 5-8 if it qualified me for SGIP.

Hoping someone further ahead on this journey can help clarify all this.

Re: SGIP. I was fortunate to be in a fire zone and was able to get a backup battery pretty much for free. SCE required me to either pick 5-8 or Prime. No other TOU plans qualify is what I was told. We had a medical baseline, but can’t use that with Prime

 

[skepticcyclist]

I am confused, I show the TOU-D-Prime rate has a minimum daily 0.40 per day and no baseline credits. So not even counting the required CTC, NDC, PPPC and DWR charges (which these alone avg around $10) how are you paying only $7 or $5 if the min daily alone would be $12?

I don't know. That is just what I am paying. To show even more proof, here is my July bill

 

[Electrph]

I don't know. That is just what I am paying. To show even more proof, here is my July bill

i believe you .. i think its just hard to figure out why you are not being charged more min charge(s) each month
i am on sce tou 4-9 and my monthly due is almost same as yours .. i calculate i should have a higher monthly charge as well but cannot figure out why i dont .. not complaining just would be nice to understand

 

[power.saver]

I don't know. That is just what I am paying. To show even more proof, here is my July bill

Can you share the Details of your New Charges and Tracked Charges? (see attached for example). It would be interesting to see how they are billing the Basic Charge and if it's offset by the Energy Charge Total.

 

[jjrandorin]

Hoping I did not just make a huge mistake.

So I was grandfathered in on SCE TOU-D-B-SDP, which has 0.13 from 10pm to 8am and 0.20 from 8am to 2pm and then .53 from 2pm to 8pm. It was a great plan, saved a ton on charging my electric vehicle. But this grandfathered plan has a really high min daily rate of 0.71, so every month the min bill will always be $21 and then you have to pay the required CTC, NDC, PPPC, DWR which came to $12, so my first bill was $33

I have Tesla Solar 12kW and 2 PowerWalls, and already generated $73 credit with SCE in my first month, so SCE will be paying me wholesale at the end of year. So for me it is all about the monthly bill.

For me it makes sense that the cheapest plan is TOU-D-4-9 or any plan with a very low min daily basic charge and has baseline credit. Am I am understanding this right? When comparing the plans it is all about min daily basic charge and baseline credit right?

For instance comparing my old grandfathered plan which daily basic charge adds up to $21 for the month, the TOU-D-4-9 is only 0.90 cents for the entire month, saving $20.

Can anyone explain how the baseline credit works? It says on the TOU-D-4-9 plan that baseline credit is 0.07 per kWh up to 200kWh, does that mean you get the full $14 credit if you use more than 200kWh in a month? In my case for July I used 479kWh but I generated 411kWh so that leaves 68kWh net usage. But even with this 68kWh usage they said I have a credit of $73 because I earned all my credits at peak rate and only used during super off peak.

so many questions, and now I read the TOU I just switched to a few minutes ago will not work with SGIP? I can still switch to TOU-D-PRIME but assuming TOU-D-5-8 is like 4-9 with its low daily charge and baseline credit I would opt for 5-8 if it qualified me for SGIP.

Hoping someone further ahead on this journey can help clarify all this.

One thing that you mention in here that you absolutely do not know for sure is " SCE will be paying me the wholesale rate at the end of the year". You seem to make that determination because you got a $73 NEM credit... but thats in August. You are likely aware of this, but just in case you are not, your solar install will generate approximately 1/2 of its current output in Nov - Feb. Just because you have a credit NOW doesnt mean you will be a net producer at the end of the year.

The way it generally works (ideally, in CA) is, one builds up enough NEM credits from March - July to Get them through August / Feb. August - Sep - October due to needing to use AC because of the heat (in general), along with declining production from July, and October - Feb because of declining production.

Any switch at all from a "grandfathered" plan really needs to be evaluated, because the utility generally will not allow you back onto any such plan, and (again in general) the utility got rid of that plan for some reason, and it usually isnt because its better for the Utility.

 

[dlevens]

I don't know. That is just what I am paying. To show even more proof, here is my July bill

I too believe you, just want to figure this out. We have enough of us here on different rates to really nail this down for others.

Does your bill show TOU-D-PRIME for your rate or TOU-D-A? Maybe you are grandfathered into a different PRIME that no longer exists?

This is what I show as available TOU rate plans for SCE
TOU-D-B-SDP (my old plan, no longer exists)
Highest Rates: Weekdays 2-8 p.m.
Daily Basic Charge: $0.71 per day
Minimum Daily Charge: None
Baseline Credit: None
Summer Rates: OFP: 0.20, SOFP: 0.13, ONP: 0.53
Winter Rates: OFP: 0.19, SOFP: 0.13, ONP: 0.29
COST per month: $21.30 + Nonbypassable charges (NBCs) + State Tax

TOU-D-PRIME
Highest Rates: Weekdays 4-9 p.m.
Daily Basic Charge: $0.40 per day
Minimum Daily Charge: None
Baseline Credit: None
Summer Rates: OFP: 0.17, ONP: 0.45
Winter Rates: OFP: 0.17, ONP: 0.41
COST per month: $12.00 + Nonbypassable charges (NBCs) + State Tax

TOU-D-4-9PM
Highest Rates: Summer Weekdays 4-9 p.m.
Daily Basic Charge: $0.03 per day
Minimum Daily Charge: $0.35
Baseline Credit: $0.07 per kWh up to your monthly baseline allocation
Summer Rates: OFP: 0.27, ONP: 0.43
Winter Rates: OFP: 0.26, ONP: 0.38
COST per month: $0.90 + Nonbypassable charges (NBCs) + State Tax - Baseline Credit

TOU-D-5-8PM
Highest Rates: Summer Weekdays 5-8 p.m.
Daily Basic Charge: $0.03 per day
Minimum Daily Charge: $0.35
Baseline Credit: $0.07 per kWh up to your monthly baseline allocation
Summer Rates: OFP: 0.27, ONP: 0.54
Winter Rates: OFP: 0.25, MP: 0.44, ONP: 0.29
COST per month: $0.90 + Nonbypassable charges (NBCs) + State Tax - Baseline Credit

Some questions:
1. Do the TOU-D-4-9PM and TOU-D-5-8PM have NBCs charges?
2. How does Min daily charge get factored into this? Does it come out of your energy charges and thus your credits can cover this or is this part of your monthly fees that you must pay? This could potentially be $10.50 a month.

Here are my two bills
Last bill before NEM

First NEM Bill

 

[Electrph]

I too believe you, just want to figure this out. We have enough of us here on different rates to really nail this down for others.

Does your bill show TOU-D-PRIME for your rate or TOU-D-A? Maybe you are grandfathered into a different PRIME that no longer exists?

This is what I show as available TOU rate plans for SCE
TOU-D-B-SDP (my old plan, no longer exists)
Highest Rates: Weekdays 2-8 p.m.
Daily Basic Charge: $0.71 per day
Minimum Daily Charge: None
Baseline Credit: None
Summer Rates: OFP: 0.20, SOFP: 0.13, ONP: 0.53
Winter Rates: OFP: 0.19, SOFP: 0.13, ONP: 0.29
COST per month: $21.30 + Nonbypassable charges (NBCs) + State Tax

TOU-D-PRIME
Highest Rates: Weekdays 4-9 p.m.
Daily Basic Charge: $0.40 per day
Minimum Daily Charge: None
Baseline Credit: None
Summer Rates: OFP: 0.17, ONP: 0.45
Winter Rates: OFP: 0.17, ONP: 0.41
COST per month: $12.00 + Nonbypassable charges (NBCs) + State Tax

TOU-D-4-9PM
Highest Rates: Summer Weekdays 4-9 p.m.
Daily Basic Charge: $0.03 per day
Minimum Daily Charge: $0.35
Baseline Credit: $0.07 per kWh up to your monthly baseline allocation
Summer Rates: OFP: 0.27, ONP: 0.43
Winter Rates: OFP: 0.26, ONP: 0.38
COST per month: $0.90 + Nonbypassable charges (NBCs) + State Tax - Baseline Credit

TOU-D-5-8PM
Highest Rates: Summer Weekdays 5-8 p.m.
Daily Basic Charge: $0.03 per day
Minimum Daily Charge: $0.35
Baseline Credit: $0.07 per kWh up to your monthly baseline allocation
Summer Rates: OFP: 0.27, ONP: 0.54
Winter Rates: OFP: 0.25, MP: 0.44, ONP: 0.29
COST per month: $0.90 + Nonbypassable charges (NBCs) + State Tax - Baseline Credit

Some questions:
1. Do the TOU-D-4-9PM and TOU-D-5-8PM have NBCs charges?
2. How does Min daily charge get factored into this? Does it come out of your energy charges and thus your credits can cover this or is this part of your monthly fees that you must pay? This could potentially be $10.50 a month.

Here are my two bills
Last bill before NEM
View attachment 692062

First NEM Bill
View attachment 692063
View attachment 692064

i will post my entire bill (tou 4-9) soon as i can if that helps ..
i was on tou prime switched to tou 4-9 earlier this year so i am def not grandfathered into anything far as i know

 

[dlevens]

One thing that you mention in here that you absolutely do not know for sure is " SCE will be paying me the wholesale rate at the end of the year". You seem to make that determination because you got a $73 NEM credit... but thats in August. You are likely aware of this, but just in case you are not, your solar install will generate approximately 1/2 of its current output in Nov - Feb. Just because you have a credit NOW doesnt mean you will be a net producer at the end of the year.

The way it generally works (ideally, in CA) is, one builds up enough NEM credits from March - July to Get them through August / Feb. August - Sep - October due to needing to use AC because of the heat (in general), along with declining production from July, and October - Feb because of declining production.

Any switch at all from a "grandfathered" plan really needs to be evaluated, because the utility generally will not allow you back onto any such plan, and (again in general) the utility got rid of that plan for some reason, and it usually isnt because its better for the Utility.

Great points, my line of thinking is really more about the guaranteed daily charges. Had I stayed on my grandfathered plan I am guaranteed to pay SCE 0.711 per day *365 = $259.52 and with no baseline credits. Over my 10 year break even plan this is $2600 to SCE. I build my system larger than my needs, even with an electric vehicle we averaged $250 a month over the year so instead of the 8kW PV that Tesla recommended I went for the 12kW and 2 PWs. I am pretty confident I can cover all my energy needs for the year, especially with NEM. Ideally I break even or have some credit from SCE.

This leaves the daily basic charges, min daily, taxes, baseline credits to save the extra money, but it's very difficult to find the correct info for these amounts without finding someone who has switched and can share the info.

 

[jjrandorin]

I am pretty confident I can cover all my energy needs for the year, especially with NEM. Ideally I break even or have some credit from SCE.

I get it, and perhaps you are correct, but you wont know until you actually go through an entire year or close to it. Almost everyones electricity use goes UP after they get solar, as most of the conservation actions people took prior to getting solar stop, in the household.

Your significant other will want the AC lower, people will leave more lights on, etc. "We have solar, right? Isnt that why we got it?" will be the response from most significant others, to any attempts to keep electricity usage down, or even the same.

I totally get trying to figure this out in detail, and it was very smart to try to oversize your system. I just think you will find, at the end of the year, you may not have "as much" (or any) "extra" left as usage tends to go up.

Back more on the thread topic, I am interested in the topic a bit because at some point I am likely going to be forced off my grandfathered, Tiered rate with SCE. I wont even consider switching until that happens though.

 

[dlevens]

i will post my entire bill (tou 4-9) soon as i can if that helps ..
i was on tou prime switched to tou 4-9 earlier this year so i am def not grandfathered into anything far as i know

That would be very helpful, thank you! I am especially interested in your Daily Basic Charge, Minimum Daily Charge, NBCs Charges, Baseline Credit and whether or not any of them come out of your energy credits or if they are billed to you monthly.

 

[Electrph]

Back more on the thread topic, I am interested in the topic a bit because at some point I am likely going to be forced off my grandfathered, Tiered rate with SCE. I wont even consider switching until that happens though.

after i had PTO in Feb '21 i noticed sce still had tiered rate as option on website ?!? .. i tried to get them to put me on that plan .. was a polite no
yea i would be all over that rate plan w/ solar and they would have to drag me kicking and screaming off of it

 

[dlevens]

Some useful definitions

Baseline allocation is an amount of electricity provided for each residential customer at a lower rate than is charged for electricity above that level.
The baseline amount is determined by the CPUC based on the number of days in the billing period, the season, the climate, and whether your primary source of heat is electric. You receive this allocation automatically on your statement. Your baseline allocation is provided on page 3 of your bill under the “Additional information” section.

Baseline Credit
A discount that reduces total electricity charges. A baseline credit is calculated per kilowatt hour (kWh) used and is capped by the monthly baseline allocation.

Daily Basic Charge
A flat, daily charge that is billed on a monthly basis, regardless of customer use or activity.

Minimum Daily Charge
A flat, daily charge that is applied if a customer’s total delivery charges fall below a minimum in a billing period (about $10 for a typical residential user). This charge supports the maintenance and operation of providing electricity.

 

[Need]

Great points, my line of thinking is really more about the guaranteed daily charges. Had I stayed on my grandfathered plan I am guaranteed to pay SCE 0.711 per day *365 = $259.52 and with no baseline credits. Over my 10 year break even plan this is $2600 to SCE. I build my system larger than my needs, even with an electric vehicle we averaged $250 a month over the year so instead of the 8kW PV that Tesla recommended I went for the 12kW and 2 PWs. I am pretty confident I can cover all my energy needs for the year, especially with NEM. Ideally I break even or have some credit from SCE.

This leaves the daily basic charges, min daily, taxes, baseline credits to save the extra money, but it's very difficult to find the correct info for these amounts without finding someone who has switched and can share the info.

You need to be very careful to switch out of the grandfather rate. You maybe saving like $15 to $20 a month on basic charges, but it is possible that you could go into the negative at the end of the year. Currently you are selling kwh back at a much higher rate with the grandfathered plan. So if you are charging at night at the lowest rate, you are selling 2x/3x the majority of the usage rate as charging takes a big chunk. You are selling high and buying low.

You said you were like -$73 on your first month? My monthly bill is usually -$100 to $-200 a month. My yearly bill for the last 3 years were around -$1700 to -$2000. Currently the SCE rate compare tool is not working for my account (not sure why), when I did it back in 2019, it shows that if I were to switch from my grandfathered TOU-D-A plan to one of the newer ones, I would be paying about $900 to $1000 more per year.

Your July bill shows that you sold 403 kWh but used 471 kWh. So if your selling rate is the same as your usage rate which is around $0.27/kWh, you will be in the negative even if you completely not use any electricity between 4pm and 9pm which has a even higher usage rate of $0.43 and you are not going to be generating anything between 4pm and 9pm.