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SCE: TOU-D 4-9pm or TOU-D Prime

VickiSoCal

Member
Apr 28, 2021
26
20
Orange County
I am pre PTO, SCE tiered rate plan. 10.54 KW with 3 powerwalls. July was my first full month of being up. This is my bill. Based on above I feel like I am going to pay more post PTO on any of the TOU plans, but unsure.

Delivery charges
Basic charge 32 days x $0.03100 $0.99
Energy-Summer Tier 1 (100% of baseline) 10 kWh x $0.13310 $1.33
DWR bond charge 10 kWh x $0.00580 $0.06
Bal of minimum charge $8.75

Generation charges
SCE Energy-Summer Tier 1 (100% of baseline) 10 kWh x $0.09558 $0.96

City Tax $12.09 x 3.50000% $0.42

Total $12.51
 

jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
11,461
13,344
Riverside Co. CA
I am pre PTO, SCE tiered rate plan. 10.54 KW with 3 powerwalls. July was my first full month of being up. This is my bill. Based on above I feel like I am going to pay more post PTO on any of the TOU plans, but unsure.

Delivery charges
Basic charge 32 days x $0.03100 $0.99
Energy-Summer Tier 1 (100% of baseline) 10 kWh x $0.13310 $1.33
DWR bond charge 10 kWh x $0.00580 $0.06
Bal of minimum charge $8.75

Generation charges
SCE Energy-Summer Tier 1 (100% of baseline) 10 kWh x $0.09558 $0.96

City Tax $12.09 x 3.50000% $0.42

Total $12.51

In CA, the tiered rate plans were gold, for solar users, since if you sized your system correctly you never pay for more than tier 1 energy. There are also no NBCs (non bypassable charges) under NEM 1. This is why they wont let new subscribers stay on them.
 

Need

Active Member
Nov 22, 2017
3,035
2,340
Rancho Cucamonga
In CA, the tiered rate plans were gold, for solar users, since if you sized your system correctly you never pay for more than tier 1 energy. There are also no NBCs (non bypassable charges) under NEM 1. This is why they wont let new subscribers stay on them.
When I did mine, it was already on NEM 2. But I "under sized" my system because I know that I will be selling high and charging low. When the solar company calculated the size of my system based on my usage, they said I will need a 15.6kw system. I did my own calculation based on TOU-D-A rate and only charge my cars at super off peak so I came up with 12kw system instead. The 12kw system was also a lot cheaper (not only because it has less panels) because it only requires 1 day of labor instead of 2 days. Also all the panels are on the efficient side of the roof so the system is more efficient.
 

jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
11,461
13,344
Riverside Co. CA
When I did mine, it was already on NEM 2. But I "under sized" my system because I know that I will be selling high and charging low. When the solar company calculated the size of my system based on my usage, they said I will need a 15.6kw system. I did my own calculation based on TOU-D-A rate and only charge my cars at super off peak so I came up with 12kw system instead. The 12kw system was also a lot cheaper (not only because it has less panels) because it only requires 1 day of labor instead of 2 days. Also all the panels are on the efficient side of the roof so the system is more efficient.

TOU-D-A, another rate plan they no longer let people sign up for, from what I remember.
 

jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
11,461
13,344
Riverside Co. CA
Yup. Anything benefiting the solar homeowners has got to go. 🤣

I both agree with you that this is what the utilities do, and am laughing along with you about it, so used "funny" but posting to tell you I agree. I sometimes wish we could use two different reactions on a post but we cant lol.
 

dlevens

Member
Apr 14, 2021
37
3
Alta Loma
Your calculation would be good if the On Peak and Off Peak are located in the same period. But, for example, the On Peak for the TOU-D-B-SDP would be 2pm to 8pm, while the other plans would be 4pm to 9pm. On the surface, it seems like it is only 1 hour difference, but it is not. I looked at my bell curve hour by hour solar generation yesterday. The energy generated from 2pm to 4pm is 28% of my total for the day (21kWh of total 76kWh). The energy generated from 8pm to 9pm is 0%. So you basically traded in 28% of your daily credit from On Peak rate to Off Peak rate.....
All of my kWh from grid were 10pm to 6am so I just moved those to off peak or super off peak for each calculation, my generation credit could be off though but my monthly bill is what I was mainly going for as even if I have a ton of credit at end of the year it will be very little money back from wholesale. I am primarily looking at the monthly which can add up quickly over 10 years.
 

dlevens

Member
Apr 14, 2021
37
3
Alta Loma
here are my bills covering months of may and june will soon have bill covering july where i might be a net consumer for the month for 1st time since PTO .. will interesting to see for me
Interesting, it seems the baseline credit goes both ways...your may bill you actually had to pay them $32.82 because you were a net generator for that month and any excess over your usage that you send back to them (in your case it was -454 kWh) you have to pay 0.07228 per kWh. I always assumed it was a credit only. I don't think I will have month where I send more to the grid than I use since we have an electric vehicle we charge about 2 times a week. This was very helpful, thank you for sharing!
 
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Electrph

Member
Aug 29, 2019
468
312
Central California
Interesting, it seems the baseline credit goes both ways...your may bill you actually had to pay them $32.82 because you were a net generator for that month and any excess over your usage that you send back to them (in your case it was -454 kWh) you have to pay 0.07228 per kWh. I always assumed it was a credit only. I don't think I will have month where I send more to the grid than I use since we have an electric vehicle we charge about 2 times a week. This was very helpful, thank you for sharing!
yes that portion caught me by surprise as well. .. i will post my july usage bill when avail .. will be net consumer for that month

i think as @skepticcyclist pointed out earlier in thread if you are a net consumer for year you are better off on prime .. if net producer the tou 4-9 or 5-9 is better... if you are somewhere on border of two at some point prime becomes better as you pass a consumption threshold
 

VickiSoCal

Member
Apr 28, 2021
26
20
Orange County
Interesting, it seems the baseline credit goes both ways...your may bill you actually had to pay them $32.82 because you were a net generator for that month and any excess over your usage that you send back to them (in your case it was -454 kWh) you have to pay 0.07228 per kWh. I always assumed it was a credit only. I don't think I will have month where I send more to the grid than I use since we have an electric vehicle we charge about 2 times a week. This was very helpful, thank you for sharing!
I don't understand this. I expect to be a net producer. Are you saying I will have to pay 0.07228 per kWh for electricity sent to grid, but then only get whole sale rates of about 0.03 back? So I am going to pay SCE about 0.04/kWh to send them electricity? Why would I not just turn it off?
 

jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
11,461
13,344
Riverside Co. CA
I don't understand this. I expect to be a net producer. Are you saying I will have to pay 0.07228 per kWh for electricity sent to grid, but then only get whole sale rates of about 0.03 back? So I am going to pay SCE about 0.04/kWh to send them electricity? Why would I not just turn it off?

the rates that people talk about when they say "if you are a net producer, you only get .03" is the rate you are paid for electricity at true up time only. Its not the rate you are paid monthly for the electricity.

If, at the end of the 12 month period that is your true up, you generated more than you used (again, for the entire year) any excess can either be paid at .03, or rolled over to the next 12 month period.

Monthly, however, you are credited for electricity at the rate it would be for you to use it from the grid at that exact time. So, for off peak power, you are credited at off peak rate, for peak power, you are credited at peak rate.

If you are on a tiered rate still (like I am) you get credited at tier 1 rates no matter when you put power in the grid (which is substantially better than getting off peak rates during the prime PV generation time, then "withdrawing" at peak rates).

Anyway, back to the 3 cent credit thing, thats only at the end of the year. Its entirely possible to be a net generator from March to July, but a net consumer from August to February (for example) and end up being a net consumer of electricity for the year, or even basically "flat". If someone really oversized their system and ended up with a large amount of credit at the end of the year, then they convert that credit on your account at that point.
 

Electrph

Member
Aug 29, 2019
468
312
Central California
Anyway, back to the 3 cent credit thing, thats only at the end of the year
when i was 1st figuring this all out i thought of it as store credit vs cash .. before annual trueup you have "store credit" of any rolling excess Kwh with sce to use toward purchase of electricy (full value) at end of true up when you "cash out" any excess then is only worth wholesale .. hopefully this analogy is correct since i am still 6 months from my 1st trueup haha
 
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Reactions: jjrandorin

h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
3,100
677
auburn, ca
the rates that people talk about when they say "if you are a net producer, you only get .03" is the rate you are paid for electricity at true up time only. Its not the rate you are paid monthly for the electricity.

If, at the end of the 12 month period that is your true up, you generated more than you used (again, for the entire year) any excess can either be paid at .03, or rolled over to the next 12 month period.

Monthly, however, you are credited for electricity at the rate it would be for you to use it from the grid at that exact time. So, for off peak power, you are credited at off peak rate, for peak power, you are credited at peak rate.

If you are on a tiered rate still (like I am) you get credited at tier 1 rates no matter when you put power in the grid (which is substantially better than getting off peak rates during the prime PV generation time, then "withdrawing" at peak rates).

Anyway, back to the 3 cent credit thing, thats only at the end of the year. Its entirely possible to be a net generator from March to July, but a net consumer from August to February (for example) and end up being a net consumer of electricity for the year, or even basically "flat". If someone really oversized their system and ended up with a large amount of credit at the end of the year, then they convert that credit on your account at that point.
Yep, that was me, a large generator at true up. Only got .03kwh so I am not trying to use a much as possible. Anyone want to come to my house and get free EV charging :)
 

Need

Active Member
Nov 22, 2017
3,035
2,340
Rancho Cucamonga
Yep, that was me, a large generator at true up. Only got .03kwh so I am not trying to use a much as possible. Anyone want to come to my house and get free EV charging :)
They don't really show you how they calculate the year end credit. I did read it was $0.03/kWh, but I am can't figure out why I got $107 back last year.

The year end statement shows
09/16/19 to 09/16/20 TOU-D-A -$107.00

· Your year-to-date energy charges: -$1,755.50
· Your year-to-date kWh: -1,018 kWh

I can't figure out how they get to $107 from either $1755.50 or 1018kWh.
 

dlevens

Member
Apr 14, 2021
37
3
Alta Loma
I don't understand this. I expect to be a net producer. Are you saying I will have to pay 0.07228 per kWh for electricity sent to grid, but then only get whole sale rates of about 0.03 back? So I am going to pay SCE about 0.04/kWh to send them electricity? Why would I not just turn it off?
Keep in mind this only applies to rate plans with a baseline credit. You only pay baseline credits for energy if you give to the grid more than you borrowed in a month. And they only pay you if you take from the grid more than you gave. Technically you can give a lot to the grid and still get baseline credit given to you. Forget about anything your house used from the sun or batteries, as the grid knows nothing about this usage, the calculation is all about grid usage.

Here is an example (will use TOU-D-4-9)
If in a month you use 800 kWh from the grid (charging an EV at night, running AC at night etc) but you sent 700 kWh to the grid, SCE will pay you .07 for the 100 kWh difference that you used. If the numbers were reversed then you would pay them.

Keep in mind this has nothing to do with your "energy credits that roll over and true up at end of year" as these are not calculated purely by kWh, the rollover credits are calculated at retail rate which is determined by what time of day you sent or used the energy. Typically for solar you send excess during peak rates, so if you send 700 in a month, it is very likely you sent it at the highest price per kWh and thus earn your peak rate * kWh. Then the energy you use from the grid is typically during off peak rates. So using our example if you sent 800 kWh you would earn 800 * 0.43 = $344.00 and if you used 700 * 0.27 = $189.00 you would still have a credit of $155.00

So it is possible to be a net producer while using more from the grid than you send. But if you are going to be sending a lot more than you use on a consistent basis it would be better to switch to TOU-D-PRIME as that plan does not have a baseline credit, so you would avoid paying .07 for each kWh you send that is over your usage from the grid. Just keep in mind with PRIME you will have a daily rate of .40 so guaranteed cost of $12.00 per month vs 0.90 per month on baseline plans. So you would need to send a surplus of more than 159 kWh just to break even.
 

dlevens

Member
Apr 14, 2021
37
3
Alta Loma
They don't really show you how they calculate the year end credit. I did read it was $0.03/kWh, but I am can't figure out why I got $107 back last year.

The year end statement shows
09/16/19 to 09/16/20 TOU-D-A -$107.00

· Your year-to-date energy charges: -$1,755.50
· Your year-to-date kWh: -1,018 kWh

I can't figure out how they get to $107 from either $1755.50 or 1018kWh.
The amount they pay changes monthly, for Sep 2020 it was 0.02577 per kWh

"...the energy usage charges from each month are added together, and any net energy usage credits are applied to the account. The balance is used to determine the total amount due that will be listed on your annual energy bill..."

So $107.00 / 0.02577 = 4152 kWh

So based on that link you must have produced an excess of 4152 kWh over your usage for the year. Not sure why this would not show in your year to date kWh though.
 

VickiSoCal

Member
Apr 28, 2021
26
20
Orange County
Keep in mind this only applies to rate plans with a baseline credit. You only pay baseline credits for energy if you give to the grid more than you borrowed in a month. And they only pay you if you take from the grid more than you gave. Technically you can give a lot to the grid and still get baseline credit given to you. Forget about anything your house used from the sun or batteries, as the grid knows nothing about this usage, the calculation is all about grid usage.

Here is an example (will use TOU-D-4-9)
If in a month you use 800 kWh from the grid (charging an EV at night, running AC at night etc) but you sent 700 kWh to the grid, SCE will pay you .07 for the 100 kWh difference that you used. If the numbers were reversed then you would pay them.

Keep in mind this has nothing to do with your "energy credits that roll over and true up at end of year" as these are not calculated purely by kWh, the rollover credits are calculated at retail rate which is determined by what time of day you sent or used the energy. Typically for solar you send excess during peak rates, so if you send 700 in a month, it is very likely you sent it at the highest price per kWh and thus earn your peak rate * kWh. Then the energy you use from the grid is typically during off peak rates. So using our example if you sent 800 kWh you would earn 800 * 0.43 = $344.00 and if you used 700 * 0.27 = $189.00 you would still have a credit of $155.00

So it is possible to be a net producer while using more from the grid than you send. But if you are going to be sending a lot more than you use on a consistent basis it would be better to switch to TOU-D-PRIME as that plan does not have a baseline credit, so you would avoid paying .07 for each kWh you send that is over your usage from the grid. Just keep in mind with PRIME you will have a daily rate of .40 so guaranteed cost of $12.00 per month vs 0.90 per month on baseline plans. So you would need to send a surplus of more than 159 kWh just to break even.
Currently we are using about .3 KW from the grid per day, spread in little 0.02 increments at all different time periods. Not even sure why that is happening. In June if we had PTO I estimate we would have sent 750 kW to grid and in July 400kW. I am still having a little trouble visualizing what this will mean. I can't believe I minored in math and this is baffling me. :)
 

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