skepticcyclist
Member
You should lose your SoCal residence card. You forgot, "the" when naming the freeways. It is, ....at "the" 15/91.
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SCE: TOU-D 4-9pm or TOU-D Prime
- Thread starter Carbonfiber
- Start date
You quoted the wrong person though...You should lose your SoCal residence card. You forgot, "the" when naming the freeways. It is, ....at "the" 15/91.
skepticcyclist
Member
My BadI was being considerate of non-SoCal residents ... The correct reference should be at the Riverside and Corona Freeways!!!You should lose your SoCal residence card. You forgot, "the" when naming the freeways. It is, ....at "the" 15/91.
Dukeybootie
Member
Wanted to follow up now that I received my first full month's bill under TOU-D-PRIME.
In summary:
-consumed 942 kWh
-generated 1284 kWh
-energy credit $93.13
-Delivery charges $11.46
-NBCs $22.71 (calculated off the ~942 kWh consumption although it shows 936 kWh for some reason)
-Total charge for month: $34.17
I never paid more than $12 a month in over 5 years under TOU-D-A regardless of how much I consumed or generated that month, and here I am looking at triple the bill size with TOU-D-PRIME thanks to the NBCs. Really hate that the NBCs are levied on all consumption rather than net consumption as it effectively discourages overnight EV charging and offsets the lower overnight rates that are a supposed advantage of PRIME.
My guess is the NBCs are still in effect under TOU-D-4-9PM but at least there is a baseline credit to offset some of the NBCs. Now I am debating switching over.
In the meantime, have changed app settings to self-powered to minimize any grid consumption. The chess game continues...
In summary:
-consumed 942 kWh
-generated 1284 kWh
-energy credit $93.13
-Delivery charges $11.46
-NBCs $22.71 (calculated off the ~942 kWh consumption although it shows 936 kWh for some reason)
-Total charge for month: $34.17
I never paid more than $12 a month in over 5 years under TOU-D-A regardless of how much I consumed or generated that month, and here I am looking at triple the bill size with TOU-D-PRIME thanks to the NBCs. Really hate that the NBCs are levied on all consumption rather than net consumption as it effectively discourages overnight EV charging and offsets the lower overnight rates that are a supposed advantage of PRIME.
My guess is the NBCs are still in effect under TOU-D-4-9PM but at least there is a baseline credit to offset some of the NBCs. Now I am debating switching over.
In the meantime, have changed app settings to self-powered to minimize any grid consumption. The chess game continues...
The non-D-Prime rates are more like 20 cents overnight compared to 16 cents for D-Prime, that 4 cents makes a difference to the cost of EV charging during the winter months when consumption > generation.
This generally means that if you're exporting during the day, divert as much as you can to EV charging first, then those kWh will never see the NBC.
I'm even considering automating my EV charger to cycle off/on whenever the AC kicks on/off, so I'm not pulling AC+EV at the same time, which would be greater than instantaneous solar production, and thus subject to NBC.
For all those who are doing comparison, I downloaded hourly data from SCE for almost 2 years. Massaged to correctly format to date/time stamps, etc. removed some unwanted rows to basically make it a clean look. Ended up writing a macro to remove and format. Once done, I then used SQL Server database to import the spreadsheet into a predefined columns. At the end I had 15,000 data rows in my table.
Then I wrote stored procedures, providing only the rate table as the input. The rate table included everything about a given rate, start/stop times, $/kWh, etc. Then I would get results sets for each rate for weekdays and weekends, which I then plugged into a spreadsheet with auto graph generation.
It did not take into account basic charge, I take it that it would average around $12 so considered it as a constant. I also didn't take into account credits getting applied or other baseline charges, as they were small numbers.
Given my actual hourly usage from the last two years, I was able to decided purely on visual graphical representation instead of drilling through numbers. I found D-PRIME was much better than the other two 4-9 or 5-8. 5-8 was more expensive than 4-9. Basically it created a template of usage by hour that remained the same, but applied $/kWh usage for a given hour against it.
I got my 1st bill which by error was based on TOUD-4-9PM plan. So I am trying to steady how they got the charges. I got moved from Tiered plan. I updated by Tiered & TOU rates based on the schedules that SCE publishes. Latest one that I found was "Effective June 1, 2021", and prior to that was "Effective February 1, 2021".
Some how I cannot figure out where they are getting these numbers doe 4-9 PM Plan:
Delivery Charges - Summer - On Peak: $0.22703 (No clue where they got this, rate I see is actually higher - $0.25131 effective June 1, 2021)
Delivery Charges - Summer - Off Peak: $0.17349 (No clue, I see it as $0.19777)
Generation Charges - Summer - On Peak: $0.18269 (I found this rate listed as $0.18267)
Generation Charges - Summer - Off Peak: $0.07379 (I found this rate listed as $0.07377)
Yes, it's 0.00002 difference, but it throws of my calculations. Previous tired based, I was able to get it down to the exact penny match! Sorry, I am anal, I need precision
Then, I see NBC rate of $0.01846. This I am not able to find this at all. This is not listed in official documents that SCE gets approval from the regulatory board.
My next bill is already corrected for D-Prime, so I would be going through same details to make sure the rates I have is what SCE is using.
Some how I cannot figure out where they are getting these numbers doe 4-9 PM Plan:
Delivery Charges - Summer - On Peak: $0.22703 (No clue where they got this, rate I see is actually higher - $0.25131 effective June 1, 2021)
Delivery Charges - Summer - Off Peak: $0.17349 (No clue, I see it as $0.19777)
Generation Charges - Summer - On Peak: $0.18269 (I found this rate listed as $0.18267)
Generation Charges - Summer - Off Peak: $0.07379 (I found this rate listed as $0.07377)
Yes, it's 0.00002 difference, but it throws of my calculations. Previous tired based, I was able to get it down to the exact penny match! Sorry, I am anal, I need precision
Then, I see NBC rate of $0.01846. This I am not able to find this at all. This is not listed in official documents that SCE gets approval from the regulatory board.
My next bill is already corrected for D-Prime, so I would be going through same details to make sure the rates I have is what SCE is using.
I did, and preemptively before getting PTO. You need to 1st setup your current plan billing system to come up usage, rate, and totals. Then you use the usage you get from Tesla App. BTW, it will only help those who have Tesla Solar + Powerwall, because the app give much more info, while just having Tesla Solar it does not. Since I do, have both, I am able to see on a daily basis what I am consuming, sending to grid, receiving from grid, and what SCE is showing as being sent to me.I'm sure someone can create a spreadsheet to calculate the ROI, tipping point, and what not between the different energy usage patterns and TOU-4-9 vs TOU-PRIME... alas, I'm not that person
Then I use what kWh Solar generated, and subtracted the amount based on the rate, and that is your saving. Add them up, and deduct from what you paid Tesla, you can start to see numbers are astonishing based on your setup. You can even project how long it will take you to recoup your investment into solar stuff. Mine, based on my usage and Powerwall use, I'm anywhere between 7 - 8 years. After that is just the Gravy!
The NBCs are in the NEM-ST tariff document, and are as follows:I got my 1st bill which by error was based on TOUD-4-9PM plan. So I am trying to steady how they got the charges. I got moved from Tiered plan. I updated by Tiered & TOU rates based on the schedules that SCE publishes. Latest one that I found was "Effective June 1, 2021", and prior to that was "Effective February 1, 2021".
Some how I cannot figure out where they are getting these numbers doe 4-9 PM Plan:
Delivery Charges - Summer - On Peak: $0.22703 (No clue where they got this, rate I see is actually higher - $0.25131 effective June 1, 2021)
Delivery Charges - Summer - Off Peak: $0.17349 (No clue, I see it as $0.19777)
Generation Charges - Summer - On Peak: $0.18269 (I found this rate listed as $0.18267)
Generation Charges - Summer - Off Peak: $0.07379 (I found this rate listed as $0.07377)
Yes, it's 0.00002 difference, but it throws of my calculations. Previous tired based, I was able to get it down to the exact penny match! Sorry, I am anal, I need precision
Then, I see NBC rate of $0.01846. This I am not able to find this at all. This is not listed in official documents that SCE gets approval from the regulatory board.
My next bill is already corrected for D-Prime, so I would be going through same details to make sure the rates I have is what SCE is using.
So look at your OAT (Otherwise Applicable Tariff) and add up the listed components to get the NBCs.
Thanks. That helped.
NBC containing only the CTC, NDC, PPC were:
PPPC = +$0.01904
NDC = -$.00056
CTC = -.00002
------------------
= $0.01846
DWR Bond, I already had it $0.0058 so that was a separate line item.
I called SCE to find out for TOUD-4-9PM, where did they come up with Energy-Summer On & Off Peak charges. I showed them the document where I was able to see delivery charges, but they are no close to what they charge. They charge less, I was told then I should be happy that I am being charged less than what is listed. That's not true, so she thought there maybe a different fee schedule for Solar TOUD-4-9PM and TOUD-PRIME rate plans that are cheaper than what I see.
Anyone know where and which document these exact prices are listed?
Anyone know where and which document these exact prices are listed?
I figured out those charges that I was trying to understand. It from the same document, but the multiplier doesn't include the NBC, so the final rate is lesser. But it still works out the same, because they split the different through NBC and for relevant period. Working through my calculations, for NEM 2.0 they just didn't add the NBC, it just appears there as a separate, because in the initial calculation, this amount was being already added. By adding NBC payable every month, is to ensure they can collect certain amounts upfront, especially for when you feed electricity to the utility. This is what I am thinking.
If you are sending in "surplus" to utility after the relevant period, they pay you back $.032/kWh, but they've already collected from you to send it to utility via NBC, i.e. (0.01846+0.0058) = $0.024/kWh. So you are actually netting (0.032-0.024) = $0.008/kWh. That's pretty sad, utility basically got your surplus for free, and made money at peak from someone else at ~$0.45/kWh!!
My intentions to send as little as possible, enough to cover up the difference at relevant period. I'll just keep my pool filter on for a longer than otherwise.
I hope my reasoning is correct. I could be missing something. I will know more truth in 12 months from now
If you are sending in "surplus" to utility after the relevant period, they pay you back $.032/kWh, but they've already collected from you to send it to utility via NBC, i.e. (0.01846+0.0058) = $0.024/kWh. So you are actually netting (0.032-0.024) = $0.008/kWh. That's pretty sad, utility basically got your surplus for free, and made money at peak from someone else at ~$0.45/kWh!!
My intentions to send as little as possible, enough to cover up the difference at relevant period. I'll just keep my pool filter on for a longer than otherwise.
I hope my reasoning is correct. I could be missing something. I will know more truth in 12 months from now
IIRC, if you're a net producer at the end of 12 months, it's worse, since they zero out your accumulated credit and give you around 3 cents for every kWh.I figured out those charges that I was trying to understand. It from the same document, but the multiplier doesn't include the NBC, so the final rate is lesser. But it still works out the same, because they split the different through NBC and for relevant period. Working through my calculations, for NEM 2.0 they just didn't add the NBC, it just appears there as a separate, because in the initial calculation, this amount was being already added. By adding NBC payable every month, is to ensure they can collect certain amounts upfront, especially for when you feed electricity to the utility. This is what I am thinking.
If you are sending in "surplus" to utility after the relevant period, they pay you back $.032/kWh, but they've already collected from you to send it to utility via NBC, i.e. (0.01846+0.0058) = $0.024/kWh. So you are actually netting (0.032-0.024) = $0.008/kWh. That's pretty sad, utility basically got your surplus for free, and made money at peak from someone else at ~$0.45/kWh!!
My intentions to send as little as possible, enough to cover up the difference at relevant period. I'll just keep my pool filter on for a longer than otherwise.
I hope my reasoning is correct. I could be missing something. I will know more truth in 12 months from now
nomis_nehc
Member
Actually, depending on the orientation of your panels, especially if SW, 5-8 should actually be better assuming your system is designed to at least offset 100% of your kWh consumption. The rate discrepancy between on and off peak is way less than Prime, plus the peak hours are a 40% shorter than 4-9. Additionally, the solar system may continue to make some power until 7 or 8 pm in the summer.
Correct, it is worse at the end of the 12 month. They will give you around 3 cents, but they have already made some money (they charge your) through NBCs when you push it to the grid. so the net is even much less, like I said $0.008 kWh, which is negligible. Cust Svc once told me normally they see payouts of like $20 on your 12th month, or maybe the top being around $50 which is rare. So $20 @ $0.032kWh = 625kWh surplus. But they've already collected from you 625 x NBCs = $15 when you send it to grid. So your net return is $5
My NBC on the monthly bill (that you have to pay monthly) is only calculated based on net consumption. I don't think I get charged NBC on the energy pushed to the grid. I get charge on the total annual accumulative for the energy pushed, but since I am at -$1700 to -$2000 at the end of the 12 months, I don't really pay anything out. So the 12 month credit I got is exactly what I get to keep @ about $0.03kWh. Last year I got $107 back. My monthly NBC is around $15 to $25. So my actual annual charge is around $250 - $100 = $150 (about $12 a month).
Thanks Need. This is insightful. Since I am at the early stage of my TOU bill, I based in what I saw from others. I hope you are correct. I will be keeping an eye on the next few bills and at the 12th month. As it becomes more clear I will update my calculations.
thanks again Need.
@GoingSolar your data is the closest we have to an actual comparison of these TOU rates. There is a huge difference between PRIME and the 4-9 and 508 plans due to daily basic charge. Under Prime you are paying $12.40 daily basic charge vs only 0.90 on the other 2. All plans you pay the NBCs and DWR but you only pay for energy you pull from the grid, you do not pay on energy sent to the grid. Everything else is based on rates during on-peak, mid-peak, off-peak etc.
Have you re run the numbers lately based on the above info? Very curious which of the 3 rates stands out between PRIME, 4-9 and 5-8. I do not have the hours broken down like you do so it is becoming a guessing game.
I was on TOU-D-B and made the mistake of switching to TOU-4-9 and then called back and cancelled the change the next day but even though I spoke to a supervisor who claimed they successfully cancelled my change my bill just came today and was TOU-4-9 uggg!
Have you re run the numbers lately based on the above info? Very curious which of the 3 rates stands out between PRIME, 4-9 and 5-8. I do not have the hours broken down like you do so it is becoming a guessing game.
I was on TOU-D-B and made the mistake of switching to TOU-4-9 and then called back and cancelled the change the next day but even though I spoke to a supervisor who claimed they successfully cancelled my change my bill just came today and was TOU-4-9 uggg!
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