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Scheduled Off-Peak Charging and departure time cabin warming

Adopado

Active Member
Aug 19, 2019
3,377
2,557
Scotland
I try to work the rough maths to make the car charge for just the 4 hours starting at 00:30
At 7kW, it’s roughly 10% per hour so just target 40% more than your battery state when you go to bed and that is pretty much sorted.

depends on battery size so for sr+ I add 56% to current soc.
 

Dilly

Active Member
Feb 24, 2020
1,609
1,255
Norfolk
So true, like many of the other ‘features’ of the car.

Yep, that’s what I do. FWIW, I find Siri Shortcuts with one of the apps (Stats, Remote For Tesla etc) very useful in this regard (if you can accept the potential security risk).
I can see the point, but I’m not a lover of having all sorts of apps to achieve a goal. Tonight I’ll test out raising the charge limit to the max but ensuring that both boosts fall well short. That should force the car to want an earlier start time than my first boost and not completing and locking out #he second boost.
It’s only a four mile trip so it doesn’t matter.
 

Jeeves

Member
Feb 12, 2020
501
283
UK
I can see the point, but I’m not a lover of having all sorts of apps to achieve a goal. Tonight I’ll test out raising the charge limit to the max but ensuring that both boosts fall well short. That should force the car to want an earlier start time than my first boost and not completing and locking out #he second boost.
It’s only a four mile trip so it doesn’t matter.
I understand. Believe me, I would love it if the car and Tesla app obviated the need to use anything else. I’ll be waiting a long time for that I think.

I hope that you find something that works for you.
 

Durzel

Active Member
Jul 17, 2019
2,942
1,979
Bath, UK
The timing functions in the car are just naff, IMHO. The BMW i3 is much the same, maybe that's where Tesla got the idea for the bizarre way in-car scheduled charging works (or doesn't). The Prius PHEV had a really good scheduling system, with charge start and stop times, as well as departure times, which could be set like a time switch, with different programmes for each day of the week.

I use the time switch built in to our charge points to control charging, as I found the in-car scheduling not to work for setting a start and stop charge time. The departure time feature should be separated out from charging, IMHO, and just used as a departure pre-conditioning setting. Having said that, it's easy enough to just turn on preconditioning ten minutes before leaving, although I wish there was a fob function for this, as is the case with some other cars. I keep meaning to get around to making something like a Dash Button, that I can just press to precondition the car. Should be easy enough to do, I think, just a matter of getting around to writing a bit of code for something like an ESP32.
My memory might be a bit crap but I'm sure it was possible for me to set a charging schedule and departure time in the i3, independantly of eachother. The car would start warming up to be ready for the departure time. I used to be on Go when I had the i3, so it worked perfectly (that I remember).

That being said, in both the i3 and Tesla I have found that if they are connected to the charger and can charge they will draw power from the charger rather than the battery to do the preconditioning. In recent days, with Agile, this has been to my detriment because the cost around the time I need to leave is much higher than it was when I actually charged the car (around 1am). I would rather charge the car up with cheap electricity, and overcharge it to account for using some of it for preconditioning, than just use shore power because it's there.

I would like to see:

- A separate charging (start & end) schedule to a scheduled departure time.

- The option to use (or not use) shore power when preconditoning the cabin/battery. In an ideal world it would be configurable so it would use battery power above a defined battery level, and shore power below.

- To be able to do the above using the app! It's beyond infuriating that I have to unlock the car to change the charging start time on the screen. I guess this isn't a problem for people on Go, or even most people, but on Agile it's pretty important.
 

Medved_77

TM3 SR+ | MSM+Black | No FSD
Jan 20, 2020
1,954
1,921
Scotland
- To be able to do the above using the app! It's beyond infuriating that I have to unlock the car to change the charging start time on the screen. I guess this isn't a problem for people on Go, or even most people, but on Agile it's pretty important
I'm sure I've recommended this to you before, and you're already aware of it, however the ev.energy app has proven very robust at handling this requirement in the absence of an integrated solution.
 

Dilly

Active Member
Feb 24, 2020
1,609
1,255
Norfolk
I’m as bad as the rest of us. Wanting easy ways to charge and warm.
I had to smile. I remember hanging a paraffin heater under my sump overnight and putting a electric fan heater in the car in the morning.
And... the heater taking 6 miles to produce tepid air :D
 

Durzel

Active Member
Jul 17, 2019
2,942
1,979
Bath, UK
I'm sure I've recommended this to you before, and you're already aware of it, however the ev.energy app has proven very robust at handling this requirement in the absence of an integrated solution.
You have, although I keep forgetting about it. Would just rather it was in the Tesla app. I’m not sure I’m totally comfortable with a cloud service having my API details.
 

Chrisgillett

Member
Aug 22, 2020
66
43
Bristol, UK
You have, although I keep forgetting about it. Would just rather it was in the Tesla app. I’m not sure I’m totally comfortable with a cloud service having my API details.

Another vote for EV.energy app - it just works.
Although, the energy it claims it puts into my car it’s different from what my Pod-Point app thinks. Who knows what’s actually going on? Wife keeps telling me not to worry about it but my obsessions are creeping in…
 
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Dilly

Active Member
Feb 24, 2020
1,609
1,255
Norfolk
I Made two-boost charging work and got a warm car this morning.
I did cock up the first time, setting it to start as off peak ended and taking it all out of my Powerwall! Now corrected.
231 miles left, set charge limit to 270. I wanted about 250 and warm car at 7.15am.
Fooling the car to want greater range had the desired effect. It would have started a 4.00am and put in 15 miles then. Second boost cut in at 7.00am, car warm. Wouldn’t work for everyone, I know, but fine for short trips.
 

Glan gluaisne

Supporting Member
Sep 11, 2019
2,782
2,700
UK
You have, although I keep forgetting about it. Would just rather it was in the Tesla app. I’m not sure I’m totally comfortable with a cloud service having my API details.

Me neither. There's no means of knowing how secure, or not, any third party app provider's services may be. There are far too many cases of security breaches with cloud-based services for me to trust giving one the keys to the car.

I find that a simple programmable time switch controlling the charge point works perfectly for me. I can just flick a switch when I plug the car in to choose whether to charge only during the cheap period, or allow immediate charging. It's as foolproof as the timers that switch our heated towel rails or central heating on and off at set times, just does it's thing with no intervention from me, and with no possible flakiness from an app service going awry.
 

Medved_77

TM3 SR+ | MSM+Black | No FSD
Jan 20, 2020
1,954
1,921
Scotland
Me neither. There's no means of knowing how secure, or not, any third party app provider's services may be. There are far too many cases of security breaches with cloud-based services for me to trust giving one the keys to the car.

I understand the security concerns, but these should be true of any internet enabled device, not just access to an internet enabled device that more than one party has access to. Sure, you don't want to be handing over access to the cars API to a company that has proven not to take security seriously, nor has the relevant (or equivalent) ISO qualifications, but to say that it's a bad idea to give any 3rd party access to your cars API is really tarring an entire industry with the same brush.

Check what security principles the 3rd party is following, but also do the same for Tesla. Ensure you change your Tesla Account password periodically, that your password is strong, that you're using 2FA, and that your password is not memorised (use a pw manager) to prevent social engineering. And use P2D. Update your router password frequently, update the passwords and pins on any mobile or tablet devices that you access your tesla account with or tesla app with...

I work for software company that stores, manages and distributes the nations track infrastructure data and distributes it back to the first party and authorised partners. We are a responsible 3rd Party company that manages and secures that data, in many cases, more securely than the first party.

I find that a simple programmable time switch controlling the charge point works perfectly for me. I can just flick a switch when I plug the car in to choose whether to charge only during the cheap period, or allow immediate charging. It's as foolproof as the timers that switch our heated towel rails or central heating on and off at set times, just does it's thing with no intervention from me, and with no possible flakiness from an app service going awry.

With regard to the simple programmable switch, I fully support homebrew but I'm not sure your switch could handle without considerable efforts the same complexities that the ev.energy app handles?

The app pulls in the daily changing Octopus Agile Rates via the Octopus API. It reads the cars required charge level set via the Tesla API and the cars current SoC. It calculates the amount of 30 minute charge sessions that are required in order to reach the required charge level, by the required departure time. It understands the cheapest/least carbon producing periods in which to charge between, the time the car is plugged in and the time of the cars departure. It will pick which 30 minute periods to use, which are rarely consecutive. It will do this every day based on the new rates, the current SoC, the required SoC and the required departure time without intervention.
 

Glan gluaisne

Supporting Member
Sep 11, 2019
2,782
2,700
UK
How many ordinary people have any real way of knowing how secure any third party app provider is, though? These companies aren't big corporations, with well-established cyber security provisions, they are pretty small, perhaps even just one-man-band operations, so they cannot hope to have every security base covered. Even the big players sometimes get it wrong, as I found out with Google and my medical records being made public.

As for the time switch, I did say it worked for me, and that it was a time based solution, as per the title of this thread, not something to track a smart tariff, like Agile, which is way off-topic. Timing works perfectly for TOU tariffs, like E7. My charge points just turn on at the set start of the cheap rate period and off at the end of it, nothing much to go wrong, and as reliable as the metering system, which also just uses a time switch in the meter.
 

Medved_77

TM3 SR+ | MSM+Black | No FSD
Jan 20, 2020
1,954
1,921
Scotland
How many ordinary people have any real way of knowing how secure any third party app provider is, though?

I don't understand the premise that you should avoid using third parties. First and Third parties are equally as capable of securing your data as they are of exposing your data.
 

Glan gluaisne

Supporting Member
Sep 11, 2019
2,782
2,700
UK
I don't understand the premise that you should avoid using third parties. First and Third parties are equally as capable of securing your data as they are of exposing your data.

Not what I wrote. My original comment about third parties was this (my added emphasis below):

There's no means of knowing how secure, or not, any third party app provider's services may be.

Some may well be as secure as it's possible to get, some may not. The key point I was making was that most people have no way of being able to determine how secure any app provider, and the services they contract to use, may be. What I did not say, or imply, was that all third party providers are inherently flawed.

The key issue for me is about verification and trust, and how ordinary people can be assured that the product they have chosen to use is as secure as they would want it to be. If I buy locks for my house I can choose "secured by design", or some other benchmark standard, and be assured of the level of security they provide. Same goes for Thatcham approval for vehicle security products. There's no equivalent. AFAIK, for an app that has the keys to your car.
 

Medved_77

TM3 SR+ | MSM+Black | No FSD
Jan 20, 2020
1,954
1,921
Scotland
Not what I wrote. My original comment about third parties was this (my added emphasis below):



Some may well be as secure as it's possible to get, some may not. The key point I was making was that most people have no way of being able to determine how secure any app provider, and the services they contract to use, may be. What I did not say, or imply, was that all third party providers are inherently flawed.

The key issue for me is about verification and trust, and how ordinary people can be assured that the product they have chosen to use is as secure as they would want it to be. If I buy locks for my house I can choose "secured by design", or some other benchmark standard, and be assured of the level of security they provide. Same goes for Thatcham approval for vehicle security products. There's no equivalent. AFAIK, for an app that has the keys to your car.

For any first or third party that you choose to trust with your data, you can get an indication of how responsible they are with your data by looking at the security qualifications they possess - this would be the lock analogy equivalent of the benchmark standard. One of the most prevalent is IS027001 but there's many more such as CISM, CRISC, CySA+. None of these certificates guarantee protection against attacks of course, just like a secured by design lock is not unpickable, but it does demonstrate diligence.

If a first or third party company is serious about the security of your data and possessions you should be able to read about it on their website and if there was still doubt, reference the certificates that they claim to have with the awarding body.
 

Glan gluaisne

Supporting Member
Sep 11, 2019
2,782
2,700
UK
For any first or third party that you choose to trust with your data, you can get an indication of how responsible they are with your data by looking at the security qualifications they possess - this would be the lock analogy equivalent of the benchmark standard. One of the most prevalent is IS027001 but there's many more such as CISM, CRISC, CySA+. None of these certificates guarantee protection against attacks of course, just like a secured by design lock is not unpickable, but it does demonstrate diligence.

If a first or third party company is serious about the security of your data and possessions you should be able to read about it on their website and if there was still doubt, reference the certificates that they claim to have with the awarding body.

This is the bit that seems to be missing in the information provided by even some of the bigger players, like EV Connect, for example. I've just read their legal stuff on their website (here: Terms and Conditions — EV Connect) and there seems to be no mention at all of any security standards they comply with, just that they comply with the provisions of US law.

Why wouldn't an app provider that is handling the digital equivalent of someone's car keys not make a point of highlighting the security accreditations they hold? After all, every single reasonably decent quality lock manufacturer will have their credentials on the front page of any advertisement, the same goes for Thatcham approved vehicle security stuff. To my, perhaps suspicious, way of thinking, any company that doesn't make it very obvious that what they are selling is accredited to a recognised standard most probably doesn't really have any form of recognised security accreditation at all.
 

Drmouse

Member
Jul 25, 2019
71
29
UK
Me neither. There's no means of knowing how secure, or not, any third party app provider's services may be.

True enough. Then again, there's no real way of knowing how secure, or not, Tesla's services may be.

I hate the current state of 3rd party integration with Tesla. It's completely unofficial, and requires an all-or-nothing approach. It would not be immensely difficult for them to create an official 3rd party API, with individual tokens and restrictions. If the third party doesn't need to be able to unlock the car, or only needs to know its location, or whatever, then it gets locked down to that. You could revoke individual 3rd party access, rather than all at once. So many things would work so much better.
 

12Pack

..
Aug 25, 2017
405
258
Manchester, UK / SFO, US
Definitely Tesla need to add the on and off tariff slot. That combined with a departure time would work. Even the lowly Mini Electric does this, and in the official app too.

Thanks goodness for 3rd party Tesla apps.
DD97C52B-3356-4762-B3F2-2E5341A891FC.jpeg
 

StuMell

Member
Nov 2, 2020
37
13
oxford
Does the car actually stop charging at the ‘departure time’ if you don’t actually depart?
If it’s set to charge at 00:30 and depart at 04:30 but you don’t leave until 8am - what actually happens the time in between?
 

Dilly

Active Member
Feb 24, 2020
1,609
1,255
Norfolk
Does the car actually stop charging at the ‘departure time’ if you don’t actually depart?
If it’s set to charge at 00:30 and depart at 04:30 but you don’t leave until 8am - what actually happens the time in between?
If you’ve talking Model 3, you can’t set a start time and a departure time. It’s one or the other.
Departure will stop charging at the time set.
In my Ioniq, you could set two separate timers in one night. Early one for off peak charge followed by a later shorter pre-warm
 

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