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Second Letter for Tesla motors regarding the Model X autopilot crash

Discussion in 'Model S' started by casteven, Sep 6, 2016.

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  1. casteven

    casteven Member

    Jun 8, 2015
    Abbotsford, B.C. Canada
    Here is the second letter from my friend, Mr.Pang.

    To Tesla Team:

    It has been weeks since I published the letter. No one has ever tried
    to contact us and discus about the crash. To fully understand the reason that
    caused this crash is critical for all tesla drivers. After awhile tesla
    published a response towards our letter. Most of parts are fit into the story. However
    there are few points that I would like to point out.

    “From this data, we learned that
    after you engaged Autosteer, your hands were not detected on the steering wheel
    for over two minutes. This is contrary to the terms of use when first enabling
    the feature and the visual alert presented you every time Autosteer is

    I admit that my hands were out of steering wheel after I engaged
    autopilot. The reason that I was doing that is because I put too much faith in
    this system. I also believe most Tesla driver would do the something when they
    engage autopilot including Elon. The problem here is that Tesla had over
    advertised this feature by calling it “autopilot”. This feature should named “advance
    driving assistant”. It is possible that Tesla had known accident like this
    would come sooner or later. Tesla might think that setting up the term by
    saying “please put hands on steering wheel at all time” would be response free
    for Tesla.

    2、 As road conditions became increasingly uncertain, the vehicle again
    alerted you to put your hands on the wheel.

    The road condition was better than fine. Lane mark is absolutely clear.
    Road is flat and there is no incoming car. No matter what my sight was never
    out of the road. However everything was happened too fast for me to take control.
    Everything happened in less than a second.

    3、No steering torque was then detected until Autosteer was disabled with
    an abrupt steering action. Immediately following detection of the first impact,
    adaptive cruise control was also disabled, the vehicle began to slow, and you
    applied the brake pedal.

    No one should avoid the cause of the malfunction of autopilot feature.
    Since you start explaining it, I realize that you are implying that some sort
    of force was applied to the steering wheel by me. I had no idea how Tesla got
    this clue. There are two points I want to make here. First, my hands were not
    on the steering wheel. Second no obstacle was on the road to alter the steering
    wheel direction. The one and the only one that was taking control of this
    entire vehicle and steering it away from the road is autopilot software itself.
    Somehow I realize if my hands were on the steering wheel with a force, would
    Tesla blame me for the collision? To me it looks like that if an accident occur
    by autopilot, either hands are on or not on the steering wheel, Tesla can always
    find a way out by saying “abrupt steering action”.

    Tesla also claimed that “abrupt steering adaptive cruise control was
    also disabled, the vehicle began to slow。”

    This is nowhere near the truth. The real thing is that vehicle was
    NEVER attended to slow from hitting the first pole towards the last. It only took
    about a second to hit 12 wood poles. I believe if it wasn't me who brake the
    vehicle it would continued cruising. Mr. Huang was injured severely due to high
    speed impact.

    Tesla as a global impact company should respect the truth of every
    incident. Nothing is more important hand human life. Lying or manipulating towards
    public about what really happened is unacceptable.

    Weeks ago I got contacted by Tesla regarding this accident. Since you cannot
    find a mandarin translator, we rearranged the call again in four hours. However
    that was the last time when Tesla tries to contact me. What I am asking is to
    fully reveal the driving data from the collision. Reliability of Autopilot software
    matters to hundreds and thousands of Tesla drivers. I wish to know the entire
    story about what really happened on us on that collision.



    Mr. Pang
    • Disagree x 11
  2. DarkMatter

    DarkMatter Active Member

    Jul 13, 2016
    Olympia, WA
    Again with the inconsistencies in the story. Ready to take over but no hands on the wheel.
    • Like x 3
  3. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Active Member

    Feb 13, 2015
    Just piling on the fictitious narrative, it would seem.
    • Like x 2
  4. WarpedOne

    WarpedOne Supreme Premier

    Aug 17, 2006
    Slovenia, Europe
    More blah blah blah, how nice ... Not!
    • Disagree x 1
  5. Lex

    Lex Member

    Apr 23, 2015
    Toronto, Canada
    I am still imagining someone observing the vehicle continue to smash through things and not doing anything, while in the driver's seat... looking around wondering what is going on... sort of like what I'm doing now :eek:
    • Funny x 4
    • Like x 2
  6. Saghost

    Saghost Well-Known Member

    Oct 9, 2013
    Yeah. Originally it was more than 20 stakes, now 12, in "about a second" at 60 mph per the original post.

    60 mph = ~88 feet per second. To hit 12 posts in a second, they'd have to be spaced less than 8 feet apart, on a rural Montana road - and that doesn't even factor in the car stopping. For 20+ posts, they'd be four feet apart or less. The story seems less likely with every iteration...
    • Like x 3
  7. zambono

    zambono Active Member

    Mar 1, 2016
    Give it up already, either talk to your insurance company or your lawyer but leave us alone.
    • Like x 7
  8. shokunin

    shokunin P85 & M3

    Feb 28, 2012
    Irvine, CA
    FACT: Driver is ultimately responsible for being aware of driving conditions at all times.
    FACT: Driver did not respond timely enough to avoid the accident.

    This is not about what the auto pilot did or did not do, rather what the driver did not do.
    • Like x 5
    • Disagree x 1
    • Love x 1
  9. jeffro01

    jeffro01 Active Member

    Jan 30, 2013
    SF Bay Area
    Mods, can we get this crap removed and the OP banned? :) Yeah I know it's not normally a part of policy to remove threads but really??? :p

    • Like x 4
    • Disagree x 1
  10. u00mem9

    u00mem9 Member

    Jun 8, 2016
    Is the target that autopilot needs to be less accident-prone than a human demographic specific?
  11. Eclectic

    Eclectic Member

    Nov 8, 2014
    Bay Area & Montana
    Since I was recently driving in the area of Montana where the accident happened, I'd like to respond to this part of the post.

    Like I wrote last week, the roads where the accident occurred are NOT suitable for AP use. Maybe I was on the wrong road, but Mr. Pang will have to give me the specific location of the accident to know for sure. I'm in Montana on a regular basis, so if I got the area wrong, I'll go back and do the test again.

    But none of the ancillary roads around Whitehall are "fine" for AP. Maybe it's fine for people who wrongfully believe that autopilot is autonomous driving, but Tesla makes it clear that AP is not autonomous and any reasonable person would know that two lane country roads in a very rural area late at night is not AP territory.

    Can you provide the exact location and time of the accident? Next time I'm in Montana I'll take my P85D there and film the route just so others can see how ridiculous it is to think AP is suitable for the road.
    • Like x 8
    • Helpful x 1
  12. Canuck

    Canuck Well-Known Member

    Nov 30, 2013
    South Surrey, BC
    You should be taking your own advice.

    After reading your second letter, and in particular the part I quoted above, Tesla is reading this.
  13. Bimbels

    Bimbels GoldMember

    Jan 18, 2016
    Newport, RI
    #13 Bimbels, Sep 6, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2016
    So in your letter to Tesla you basically admit you had the completely wrong understanding about how AP works. And you are blaming Tesla - which I find remarkable. You would think that someone willing to shell out the amount of money you did would have at least done some research.

    You also seem to be ignoring the fact that the car tells you when you enable AP for the first time, and then each time you turn it on, to keep your hands on the wheel and always be prepared to take control.

    I think there is still some confusion on your part - you seem to still have unrealistic expectations as to how AP works. There may also be something lost in the translation.

    a) you are confused (and mistaken) that the meaning of "autopilot" is synonymous with "autonomous."

    b) "the road conditions became uncertain" doesn't mean they were uncertain to YOU - it means they were uncertain for the sensors on the car. This could be due to light, or glare, or debris on sensors, or any number of things. So when tesla says "the road conditions became uncertain" they are saying the car's sensors, for whatever reason, were having difficulty. When that happens, you are told to grab the wheel.

    c) What they are saying is: you were not holding the steering wheel, until you were. When YOU took over was this "abrupt steering action," presumably when you took over as the car veered off the road. When the car detected the first impact, the TACC was also disabled. Then you applied the brakes. No where in there is Tesla implying that you purposely or accidentally drove into the barrier - they are saying you did not grab the wheel until it was too late.

    d) An since the entire episode lasted a second (according to you) and I am sure was scary and confusing, Which is why vehicle logs are probably more reliable in this case. I doubt you would be reliable to recall if you hit the brake first or if the car had disconnected TACC first. By the way, TACC and the vehicle "slowing" does not mean emergency braking by the vehicle - it just means no further acceleration by the drive train, though obviously there would still be inertia carrying you forward. Since it happened in so quickly, you might not have even been aware.

    What I see here is someone not willing to take responsibility for their ignorance and trying to blame the company. If the company is at fault at all, it's that they expected you to not be ignorant.
    • Like x 4
  14. Burnt Toast

    Burnt Toast Member

    Jun 23, 2016
    Do you mean Javelin instead of discus?
  15. Vitold

    Vitold Active Member

    Aug 10, 2015
    Your friend was driving too fast for the road conditions. If only a second of reaction time separates one from accident - one is driving too fast - this is universal - autopilot engaged or not.
    • Like x 1
  16. Chopr147

    Chopr147 Active Member

    Apr 3, 2016
    Wantagh, NY
    I don't get it. Does the Op. really think AP is autonomous? That is the only conclusion I can come up with for him to be so defensive and blaming Tesla. The road this occurred on is in NO WAY appropriate for AP, and at night at 60 MPH with a curve coming up?
    He's lucky to be alive, never-mind that he destroyed a $150,000 vehicle due to his lack of knowledge.
    I have tried AP on a marked mountain road as a "test" case , going 40 mph with my hands on the wheel, in the daytime and anticipating failure which it that is. It is not ready for prime time. The AP just cannot stick to the lane on these type of roads and any reasonable person should know this. This is not a language barrier issue. More of an ignorance problem
    • Informative x 2
    • Like x 2
  17. artsci

    artsci Sponsor

    May 10, 2012
    Timonium, Maryland
    Take some responsibility for the fact that you screwed up and stop blaming your mistake on Tesla.
    • Like x 4
  18. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Well-Known Member

    Jul 12, 2012
    A plane has autopilot. A plane also has pilots. Autopilot will follow an indicated path, but when the autopilot system senses a situation it cannot handle it asks that the pilot take over.
    That's why Tesla called the system Autopilot. I'm sure they thought that people would understand the analogy.
    • Like x 3
  19. LargeHamCollider

    LargeHamCollider Battery cells != scalable

    Jan 10, 2015
    United States
    • Like x 1
  20. Bimbels

    Bimbels GoldMember

    Jan 18, 2016
    Newport, RI
    Yes. And autopilot will fly into a mountain if that's what you tell it to do. Because it is autopilot, not autonomous.

    Autopilot is actually a very apt name.
    • Like x 5
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