One bloke said yes, one bloke said no.
For the amount of money, I decided I could wait
Definitely worth waiting a bit longer (if necessary) for that kind of stellar performance upgrade!
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Second thoughts on FSD
- Thread starter tess19
- Start date
Definitely worth waiting a bit longer (if necessary) for that kind of stellar performance upgrade!
Tesla change aftersale price options like FSD more often than my wife shoes.
I was too tight to pay even £2500 for orginal AP. Sitting on my hands meant I managed to pay 'just' £4900 to go from no AP to FSD, thats only £400 more than what people paid for Extended AP which cost another £2k+ to upgrade to FSD.
Tesla have now gone back to wanting over £10k to activate FSD on a car with no AP at all!!
EAP was £4,700 when I ordered my car in Sept 17 and I thought that was a hefty price to pay for glorified cruise control, but it was that or nothing. FSD was another £2,800 on top, so would have been £7,500 in total for FSD! The extra £2,800 would have been a complete and utter waste of money with zero extra functionality over EAP throughout that time. I'm surprised people who did buy FSD in the last few years are tolerating the total rip-off so well! FSD is still a rip-off today at £5,800 and again I'm surprised so many people are taking it up, especially with single lane AP now free. You've got to hand it to the Tesla hype!
Tesla keep on saying that they will charge more for adding FSD later on, but that's not always been the case historically and IMHO unlikely in the future. It's pretty obvious that they will get more revenue from FSD if they keep the price down. Nobody is going to pay £10k or whatever silly amount to activate FSD in a used Tesla! Especially not when it is nowhere near living up to its name.
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My 2p for what it's worth...
I think in 10-15 years time we'll look back on the conversations wondering why we were all so upset with the cost, and instead be a little bemused the absolute bargain of FSD. *flame me*
I think the disparity in these forums is down to short/long term thinking. I totally get the instant gratification aspect, "I've handed you a lot of my money, and so far you've given me zilch in return" - totally understandable. But isn't FSD priced as like a game on steam that isn't quite finished yet? Once the game is realised the actual price of the game is listed. Or, in another sense, it's priced like an investment and most intelligent investors buy something that is undervalued by the market based on circulating information at the time. Tesla's FSD offering fits both those pricing paradigms IMO.
Heck you might not even be able to buy a new Tesla for less than £200k by then, maybe higher (the guy running Tesloop says much much higher). Really instead of buying stock long investors should grouping together and buy cars even if it means leaving them in shipping containers for the next few years. *again flame me*
I think in 10-15 years time we'll look back on the conversations wondering why we were all so upset with the cost, and instead be a little bemused the absolute bargain of FSD. *flame me*
I think the disparity in these forums is down to short/long term thinking. I totally get the instant gratification aspect, "I've handed you a lot of my money, and so far you've given me zilch in return" - totally understandable. But isn't FSD priced as like a game on steam that isn't quite finished yet? Once the game is realised the actual price of the game is listed. Or, in another sense, it's priced like an investment and most intelligent investors buy something that is undervalued by the market based on circulating information at the time. Tesla's FSD offering fits both those pricing paradigms IMO.
Heck you might not even be able to buy a new Tesla for less than £200k by then, maybe higher (the guy running Tesloop says much much higher). Really instead of buying stock long investors should grouping together and buy cars even if it means leaving them in shipping containers for the next few years. *again flame me*
So you reckon a 2019 M3 with FSD will be worth a few hundred grand somewhere around 2030? Good luck with that investment!
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
Except that you can buy FSD at any time and at current price, unless unfortunately the price jumps up with no pre-announcement (but equally likely is a end-of-Quarter fire-sale)
MrBadger
Badger out
FSD added after purchase is iirc £1200 more than if purchased with car.
End of quarter fire sale was predicted by many last quarter but it never happened.
I think it is fair to say that with HW3 it has triggered a concerted effort in FSD development. I guess that AP feature wise pretty much it although hope it does improve as HW3 finesse trickles down.
I thought this Model 3 thread was interesting
Autopilot clarification? not necessarily for the content but the change in tone used by some. Quite a balanced set of responses.
End of quarter fire sale was predicted by many last quarter but it never happened.
I think it is fair to say that with HW3 it has triggered a concerted effort in FSD development. I guess that AP feature wise pretty much it although hope it does improve as HW3 finesse trickles down.
I thought this Model 3 thread was interesting
Autopilot clarification? not necessarily for the content but the change in tone used by some. Quite a balanced set of responses.
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One of the few certainties about FSD is that desperation for cash/revenue will bring the fire sale upgrade pricing back one quarter end.
They will try to protect its perceived value for a while, but sooner or later they'll offer it for peanuts in a great fire of brand image and owner goodwill.
It is stark staring bonkers to pay £5k for auto lane change that only works when the roads are too quiet to need it. And AP2 is a clear and obvious step backwards from AP1 at the moment, too, in the UK. It's all very well talking about what it will do in future, but most buyers will be in a different car after 3 years.
They will try to protect its perceived value for a while, but sooner or later they'll offer it for peanuts in a great fire of brand image and owner goodwill.
It is stark staring bonkers to pay £5k for auto lane change that only works when the roads are too quiet to need it. And AP2 is a clear and obvious step backwards from AP1 at the moment, too, in the UK. It's all very well talking about what it will do in future, but most buyers will be in a different car after 3 years.
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
Apart from AP2 not reading speed signs (which AP1 can do) I have found AP2 more capable in actual driving (now ... not when it first came out!)
That thread sums it up pretty well. Basically the only real limitation of basic AP is having to disable auto-steer when changing lanes on a motorway / dual carriageway - a minor but nonetheless irritating issue.
But it's worth noting that FSD in the uk is slightly crippled in that it does not allow fully automatic lane changes. So in NoA you still have to manually use the indicator to confirm every suggested lane change. But at least it means you don't have to disable auto-steer every time you change lanes.
Also don't expect auto lane changes in FSD to be very dynamic. It changes lanes like a hesitant granny even in the most aggressive setting. In any typical high volume traffic situation you would get eaten for breakfast if you relied on auto lane changing to get you through. So in real life dynamic traffic when lane changes are critical you will override FSD anyway. Auto-lane change works much better in light traffic but then you are only really using it to avoid coming out of auto-steer.
One final comment about auto-lane changing (or really semi-auto in uk) is that it can also be quite irritating simply because it is so hesitant to get moving and on occasion it can totally baulk or even aborts lane changes mid-lane for no good reason!
I find some people on this forum get really carried away with FSD and use it in all sorts of situations where in all honesty it would be far less hassle, less stressful and safer to drive the car yourself. It is really not that good outside of motorways, dual carriageways and slow crawling traffic jams. Yes it will work on plenty of A and B roads too, but only if you want to look like a learner driver or doddering old fart!
If that's all worth £6k to anyone then they must put a huge value on only using the indicator to change lanes very slowly!
Where's your sense of adventure!
[/QUOTE]You can go on quite an adventure with £6k in your pocket!
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
I've only driven Model-3 100 dual-carriageway miles or so, but it changed lanes "promptly" each time. my AP1 is reasonably good - when it does it at all, which is kinda 50:50 (works fine for miles on end and then, same journey, won't work at all for a bit ... and then starts working again; might be light-angle or something like that, but of course AP3 is different numbers of cameras and so on, so no sensible comparison).
I just wonder if model-3 hardware is in any way more advanced than yours? any chance your sensors need a service-nudge? I'll ask the driver how she is getting on with it, and if it "always" changes lanes on command, and whether she has selected "max max" mode!
I have no idea what value folk would place on it, but if you manually change lanes and then "steer a bit, move back to lane, and only then re-engage AP" you are not having the safety benefits of AP in that period.
If you manually change lanes, re-engage, and then manually change-back, and re-engage, the interval would be pretty short ... but maybe the more natural thing is to "drive" the duration of the overtake? IDK
I had a lane-intrusion yesterday which woke my passengers up when I swerved
AP1 didn't pick that up (or thought it wasn't going to actually happen), but if it was AP1 lack-of-camera I expect AP2+ would have taken care of it.I've only driven Model-3 100 dual-carriageway miles or so, but it changed lanes "promptly" each time. my AP1 is reasonably good - when it does it at all, which is kinda 50:50 (works fine for miles on end and then, same journey, won't work at all for a bit ... and then starts working again; might be light-angle or something like that, but of course AP3 is different numbers of cameras and so on, so no sensible comparison).
I just wonder if model-3 hardware is in any way more advanced than yours? any chance your sensors need a service-nudge? I'll ask the driver how she is getting on with it, and if it "always" changes lanes on command, and whether she has selected "max max" mode!
I have no idea what value folk would place on it, but if you manually change lanes and then "steer a bit, move back to lane, and only then re-engage AP" you are not having the safety benefits of AP in that period.
If you manually change lanes, re-engage, and then manually change-back, and re-engage, the interval would be pretty short ... but maybe the more natural thing is to "drive" the duration of the overtake? IDK
I had a lane-intrusion yesterday which woke my passengers up when I swerved
It's possible that AP3 could be sharper. My X is an early 2018 AP2.5 car with latest software. I've driven enough loaners to know my car is performing as normal for that hardware level.
To give you some idea of the response to auto-lane change. When I indicate it takes about a second for the dashed lane-lines to appear and then another second or so for the car to start steering over to the next lane. The actual steering move itself is fairly slow too, which is fine when there is little traffic about, but soon gets painful when you need to get a move on. Speed control is also very iffy on lane changes in traffic, often braking way too hard before starting a lane change into a slower moving lane. I can blend into traffic much better in manual control.
In any situation where I need to make dynamic lane changes in traffic I either just use TACC or go full manual so I know it's not going to mess up the braking.
Bottom line - I'm nowhere near impressed enough to pay for FSD on my M3 and people should really try it before ordering now test drives are available.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if the post purchase price of FSD goes up (currently a £1200 difference after purchase). Elon has hinted a number of times at its long term value and I suspect what will happen (barring regulatory approval) is that the next set of FSD features will have some of the features we saw in the autonomy day video which will make FSD far more compelling to the extent that many more will want FSD.
Things I think they'll add as future FSD features:
Traffic lights and stop signs
Roundabouts & 4 ways stops
Drop and park
Pick me up
Things I think they'll add as future FSD features:
Traffic lights and stop signs
Roundabouts & 4 ways stops
Drop and park
Pick me up
I don't see drop and park working too well in typical uk carparks. Be more like drop and prang! There's a good chance your pride and joy will be taken out by some moron backing out of a space without looking - you know, the ones who expect you to just stop for them. Your Tesla won't be smart enough to see things like that coming.
Also don't see how it will cope with complex roundabouts in busy traffic. I'm sure it will manage a simple empty roundabout if they sort out the speed control, which is currently not even capable of negotiating simple tight bends without manual speed control.
It will no doubt get better, but I think there's a limit to what people are prepared to pay and I think the current price is already pushing the boundaries. Also as these semi-autonomous driving aids become more widespread across the industry, their price will inevitably come down through natural competition. Volvo, BMW, VW, Merc, Nissan etc all have their own versions of AP which are getting better all the time. Tesla has really hyped up its FSD, but it isn't really delivering on the promise.
Once we do get genuine FSD without the need for a driver and steering wheel, then the commercials change dramatically. But that is so far away it isn't worth discussing as far as deciding whether or not to buy FSD with a current Tesla. I personally think FSD is one thing Elon has grossly under-estimated although I do admire his push to make it happen. He must be getting pretty frustrated with the lack of progress given all the promises made over the last few years. Just to recap on current progress, AP2 is arguably no better than original AP1 several years ago. For sure AP2 has more potential, but progress beyond the capability of AP1 has been very sluggish to date. FSD has gone nowhere beyond EAP either and looks far from a system that could actually drive the car for you safely in a wide range of situations. They would do well to consolidate the basic functionality, like vehicle speed control when negotiating bends on single carriageways - which is currently woefully inadequate for FSD. Sometimes I do wonder if these software guys developing AP have any real understanding of vehicle dynamics, but I digress!
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
As I understand it the principles in that department have departed (recently) and Elon has taken over ...
Agreed ... except there is an alternative metric:
AP1 was the best that MobileEye had - after years of development
AP2 is what Tesla, alone, have been able to throw together in a couple of years. if that trajectory continues its better than MobileEye's was ...
Lots of generalisations and using my broadest-brush ...
I'm with Peteski on this. UK is filled with edge cases and is more complicated off motorway than US.
Even if FSD becomes what it says on the tin in US it will not be useful in UK for a long time. Ultimately if they want more UK and EU adoption they will either have to have a sale or split some features off (like auto lane change) and let people upgrade in stages.
If they don't care about UK FSD adoption - which would be my bet, they will simply put the price at where it sells in US.
Even if FSD becomes what it says on the tin in US it will not be useful in UK for a long time. Ultimately if they want more UK and EU adoption they will either have to have a sale or split some features off (like auto lane change) and let people upgrade in stages.
If they don't care about UK FSD adoption - which would be my bet, they will simply put the price at where it sells in US.
I have driven with MX on AP but I cannot see FSD to work properly despite so many still believe in full autonomous/robotaxi
With enhanced summon, if there in a car coming the other direction in the carpark and i can see the M3 to stop and get confused where as a normal competent driver can steer clear or reverse a bit to get around.
With fully autonomous set, will it be clever enough to steer around if the 3 lane of the motorway is blocked due to accident directly in front of you. I can see the car just sit there thinking there is a traffic jam.
Summary, saving my £5k on FSD.
With enhanced summon, if there in a car coming the other direction in the carpark and i can see the M3 to stop and get confused where as a normal competent driver can steer clear or reverse a bit to get around.
With fully autonomous set, will it be clever enough to steer around if the 3 lane of the motorway is blocked due to accident directly in front of you. I can see the car just sit there thinking there is a traffic jam.
Summary, saving my £5k on FSD.
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