Security Question

[NigelM]

...and maybe someone could help me out.

...I walked up to the car and all my cousins wanted to check it out. They all got in and I stood outside (with the key in my pocket). They started driving the car around the neighborhood without the key.

Give your cousins an earful and tell them not to do that.

But the lock-on-walkaway and auto-unlock-present handle features are optional conveniences. You can turn that stuff off and lock/unlock the car with your fob like a regular car if you prefer that. Then it seems to me that security and convenience are pretty comparable to any other car. (Or are there other cases I'm missing?)

Bingo!

....I am more concerned about someone who doesn't know to drive the car and create a problem. My cousins took off without me in the car by just randomly pressing buttons. I was more worried they would screw up the car by pressing random buttons, then if it was a test drive where I was in the car.

My solution today when people wanted to check out the car was I stood in the way of anyone trying to sit in the driver's seat.

Seriously, just tell them not to. If you want to be polite, 'ask' them not to.

Two ideas to solve the issue: allow the remote app to act as a "keyfob"" if you forget the key, also allow the remote app to "shutdown the car" with say a 5 minute notification to the driver, to allow them to safely pullover. That remote shutdown would also be a great feature if you were "car jacked" as well (and the keyfob was demanded by the thief or left in the car)

Phone as a keyfob is a bad idea. Lose your phone and somebody has your car key. "Shutdown" idea is interesting but allows too much control to a non-driver and lets someone mess with you while you are on the interstate 10 miles from the nearest exit.

As this sounds like a very nice feature, Tesla needs to add a security menu to the app. For example enter a code before you may start up the app.
....

I hope Tesla reads this forum and does implement a better security for either the app and the keyfob.

You have a password on your phone, just use that.

1) On the center console, the remote app switch from on to off should require a password to change. Otherwise those who know how to disable it easily. Password for service center different than owner password.

2) On app, password as well as stated above.

There are a myriad of posts complaining about the number of screens to access certain things, tapping twice to change lights etc, manually having to action windscreen wipers etc. I suspect that the majority would not want added passwords to access simple changes. As for the app, you have a password on your phone already.

One fix I would like to see is some sort of authentication pass every x seconds after being put in drive. That way, if someone drives off without the fob the car would recognize that and sound a warning, then eventually shut itself down. Preferably x would be initially short enough to catch a fob left in the garage before one got too far down the street. After the first several seconds, I'd think the interval should be increased until it is certain the fob is in the car.

How would you feel about your car shutting down 2 miles from home, in the pouring rain, because you left the key in your garage? Worth noting also that you'll have battery problems with the keyfob sooner rather than later.

 

[Suzieq]

My Nissan Altima hybrid has an "intelligent key" system, push button start. However, it WILL NOT start without the fob being inside the car. If you attempt to start without the fob you will get a message saying "no key". If the car is running and you get out of it with the fob in your pocket, it will start beeping to alert you, but it will not shut down.

Tesla needs to modify the SW to not allow starting unless the fob is in the car. It's a safety and security issue.

 

[Robert.Boston]

Nigel, I agree with you on all counts but one:

There are a myriad of posts complaining about the number of screens to access certain things, tapping twice to change lights etc, manually having to action windscreen wipers etc. I suspect that the majority would not want added passwords to access simple changes.

For simple changes, I agree. For toggling remote access by the app, I think that should be password-protected. This isn't a setting that you're going to change often, so the security benefit offsets the slight inconvenience if I should ever have reason to toggle remote access.

 

[Iz]

At a minimum, password entry on the touchscreen to prevent driving would be a good option.

 

[huntjo]

How many people can start their Model S with fob outside? I re-tested this yesterday with the fob five feet away from the car. I was able to open doors and get in because I have tech package, but after I got in, pressed on brake and tried to shift into gear, I got an error message that the fob was not detected. I am in complete agreement that one should not be able to drive without the fob in the car. And I submit that at least MY car is working correctly.

Please no extra passwords or menus to navigate through. As Nigel said, either disable the auto presenting handles or use a password in your phone as you should already be doing.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Side point. Top gear did a prank using the Challenger keyless start and the car was able to start with the key outside the car at some distance (the person with the key, Richard Hammond was inside a restaurant).

 

[martinve]

Still, all the discussion aside.
The car shouldn't be able to drive away when the keyfob is not inside.
If the keyfob runs out of battery, you can put it inside the cupholder so the car can still 'see' the fob and don't shut down.

It's probably unlikely the car gets stolen right under your nose, but the car is getting more and more attention in the media and is more known to the public every day.
Thiefs do know what they are stealing and they do know how to 'start' the car.
Adding the security with the keyfob being inside the key to be able to start should prevent this.
At the same time it also avoids the problem where people forget their fob at their home and are stuck far away from the fob with no way to turn on the car.

NigelM is correct, securing your phone with a password should be enough security to avoid any problems with a stolen phone.

Since I'm not yet an owner of the car, if you disable the app inside the car, will it still be trackable from the phone ?
If not, would be nice to have indeed a code when you want to disable the app inside the car.

 

[montgom626]

No fob required for Audi or Volvo

Another solution is to plug the car when you show it to someone else... then the car will not move even with the keyfob in.

I like that.

- - - Updated - - -

I can drive off without a key fob in my car. Able to do it in my Audi A8L and my Volvo S60.

 

[NeedToDrive]

Give your cousins an earful and tell them not to do that.
How would you feel about your car shutting down 2 miles from home, in the pouring rain, because you left the key in your garage? Worth noting also that you'll have battery problems with the key fob sooner rather than later.

That is the reason why I requested the warning alarm feature and spoke in seconds. Alarm goes off and I'd think one would immediately turn around to go back. Even with no alarm, waiting long enough to get two miles seems too late to me. In any case, far far better to have to go back two miles to get the key fob than to be stranded 200 miles out and having to call a taxi. Battery problem? Do you mean changing the battery every two years instead of every four...

Basically I'm demanding that the car would not usable without the key. The consequence is going to be that the car will shut itself down. If that means being stranded in the rain, then so be it.

 

[dfitz206]

At a minimum, password entry on the touchscreen to prevent driving would be a good option.

I completely disagree. I do NOT want to enter a password every single time I jump in the car. I hate having 10 zillion passwords. So then we make them generic and easy to guess.

 

[smartypnz]

Side point. Top gear did a prank using the Challenger keyless start and the car was able to start with the key outside the car at some distance (the person with the key, Richard Hammond was inside a restaurant).

You have to remember that Top Gear tends to "dress up" their results to improve the entertainment value.

 

[NigelM]

You have to remember that Top Gear tends to "dress up" their results to improve the entertainment value.

That's an understatement.

 

[jomo25]

I disagree with the idea that a phone password is an apt substitute for an app password. If you believe this, then why do any apps have passwords? Every banking app has a password requirement. They dont even offer a 'save password' option. maybe a 'save ID' option. I see this as no different.

I don't have a car yet, so i see the app always asking me to login, (then it tells me I don't have a car). I figured it always will ask for a password even if I had a car. Does it not do that? Cuz I also don't see a 'save password' checkbox. At worst it should prompt for ID and PW with a save PW option for those silly enough to use it for something like this.

Heck a password protect on the 17 inch could have the same. Ad I would only suggest only certain settings screens would be password protected. Actually, we know they have some password protection in there now to lock users out of the 'hidden' screens.

 

[stephenpace]

Related to this thread is a 'show the car' option. Many of us bring the vehicle to shows like Coffee and Cars. While some don't allow people to get in their cars (quite understandable), I do. In fact, sometimes I do the delivery specialist thing where I'm in the passenger seat (with the fob), answer questions, and let folks play with the screens. There needs to be a mode (similar to the display of the cars in the galleries) that I can enable that allows this type of display without the ability to put the car in gear. I believe the galleries do this by keeping the car unlocked and having the fob stored in a location outside of range, but in my case, I have the fob and would like to keep it with me. This mode would also be useful when allowing kids to play with the car.

 

[neroden]

Regarding the physical security question, I ordered some small Faraday cage bags (from RA Mayes) . When I get out of the car, after locking it, I drop the key in the Faraday cage bag. Bingo, car can't detect the key. When I come up to drive the car away myself, I pull the key out of the bag while I'm standing next to the door.

It means it's more like using a normal key, but it does solve the problem which the initial commenter had.

(edited...)
I agree that the current default behavior is not desirable. Perhaps the quickest (if dumbest) way to fix it would be for Tesla to supply Faraday cage bags with the car.

FWIW, if you remove the key (or put it in a Faraday cage) but *leave the door open*, it remains possible for people to examine and play around with the car, but not possible for them to start it. This is what I've been doing for showing the car off. (If you close all the doors, it proceeds to lock itself up.)

 

[jerry33]

Regarding the physical security question, I ordered some small Faraday cage bags (from RA Mayes) .

Are these the ones here? They're $50 each and kind of large. Wouldn't an Altoids tin do the same job?

 

[Babylonfive]

Related to this thread is a 'show the car' option. Many of us bring the vehicle to shows like Coffee and Cars. While some don't allow people to get in their cars (quite understandable), I do. In fact, sometimes I do the delivery specialist thing where I'm in the passenger seat (with the fob), answer questions, and let folks play with the screens. There needs to be a mode (similar to the display of the cars in the galleries) that I can enable that allows this type of display without the ability to put the car in gear. I believe the galleries do this by keeping the car unlocked and having the fob stored in a location outside of range, but in my case, I have the fob and would like to keep it with me. This mode would also be useful when allowing kids to play with the car.

I designed something like this, but didn't get much interest from Tesla, or from a few 'key' owners I asked - 8 \

I also was concerned about the idea of 'public' situations with the owner nearby (family get together, car show, etc) but untrained people might be in the car so you'd like all aspects of the car to operate (screen, air, stereo) to allow showing-off, but NOT allow the car to move.

So, I designed and built an immobilizer device.

It's a small fob (smaller than the car fob) that plugs into the charge port - you insert it and close them charge port, and then when you continue to stay nearby the car can't go (it thinks the car is about to charge). Obviously you don't need this immobilizer gadget if you are near a real charging port with power (like your garage).

I thought that Tesla themselves would like it, for their stores - instead of a big charging cable, you'd just pop this in. But, the feedback was that they didn't want to use it.

It would be considered expensive (~$100) and I'd need to carry insurance to produce it, as I'd worry that someone would COUNT ON IT and if it ever failed to make contact perfectly someone could get hurt. -- I always considered it a fallback to an owners careful attention, not a primary lock (for unattended toddlers, as an example).

David

 

[islandbayy]

Somewhat on topic, this video talks about some of the security features and ease of theft.

 

[jcaspar]

If you just put your phone in front of the key in your pocket it blocks recognition by the car. At least this happens with my iPhone.

Regarding the physical security question, I ordered some small Faraday cage bags (from RA Mayes) . When I get out of the car, after locking it, I drop the key in the Faraday cage bag. Bingo, car can't detect the key. When I come up to drive the car away myself, I pull the key out of the bag while I'm standing next to the door.

It means it's more like using a normal key, but it does solve the problem which the initial commenter had.
(edited...)

 

[ZBB]

So, I designed and built an immobilizer device.

It's a small fob (smaller than the car fob) that plugs into the charge port - you insert it and close them charge port, and then when you continue to stay nearby the car can't go (it thinks the car is about to charge). Obviously you don't need this immobilizer gadget if you are near a real charging port with power (like your garage).

Would putting the j1772 adapter in the charge port basically do the same thing? The port door would be open -- but would that immobilize the car?