No. They said that all the other Founders Series customers signed that agreement. I frankly don't believe them for one minute. Plus, the company is not likely to sue Elon or the other Founders Series customers, since all of them or investors and many are Elon's friends...
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No. They said that all the other Founders Series customers signed that agreement. I frankly don't believe them for one minute. Plus, the company is not likely to sue Elon or the other Founders Series customers, since all of them or investors and many are Elon's friends...
I like to believe that the reason that the car is delayed, is that there are still people that want to make sure that Martin gets the best car, not just #2. I think that the delay has at least allowed the body panels to get better. You know, let them tweak production and deliver the first unblemished car to Martin.
Also, the more cars before #2 produced means that the less likely #2 will end up a customer/showroom car.
Maybe the delay might also be long enought to allow the new drivetrain to be installed.
I just might also be a wishfull thinker.
Also, the more cars before #2 produced means that the less likely #2 will end up a customer/showroom car.
Maybe the delay might also be long enought to allow the new drivetrain to be installed.
I just might also be a wishfull thinker.
I think the basic concern re Matin's car (or lack of same) is that there are still 598 VIN numbers to go. If a Founder series owner is getting the runaround then what do regular old buyers have to look forward to?
By the way, there are many forums for many of the world's Production cars from the many manafacturers out there.
They have Posts about where to get a car's accessories and how to hack and troubleshooting problems, dealer issues and Company compliments and complaints.
These pages may well end up being where Tesla Owners come to share and vent about getting and owning and tricking out their Tesla without fear of company censorship.
I suggest a new Sub-Forum under The Tesla Roadster. Something like:
Roadster Owner
or:
Roadster owning
Roadster Owner Comments
Roadster Owner Share
Roadster Owner Stories
By the way, there are many forums for many of the world's Production cars from the many manafacturers out there.
They have Posts about where to get a car's accessories and how to hack and troubleshooting problems, dealer issues and Company compliments and complaints.
These pages may well end up being where Tesla Owners come to share and vent about getting and owning and tricking out their Tesla without fear of company censorship.
I suggest a new Sub-Forum under The Tesla Roadster. Something like:
Roadster Owner
or:
Roadster owning
Roadster Owner Comments
Roadster Owner Share
Roadster Owner Stories
That is generous of you, but nobody at Tesla asked me if I would rather have a later car so that the body panels would fit better.
There is relevant history about this issue:
When the company was founded, there was no question at all that car number one would be mine. (Some joked that this was why I started the company.) Some time after Elon came on board, he declared that he wanted number one. He and I argued about it for a while. His basic argument was "I invested X million dollars - it is not too much to ask for the first car." My response was "True, you invested a lot of money (for which I am truly grateful), but I have put 4 years of my life into this company." After a few rounds of this argument, Elon reluctantly agreed to let me have car number one. Recognizing how much this meant to Elon, I relented, and said that he could have the first one; I would be satisfied with the second car. And so it was.
Elon thanked me for my graciousness, and promised that under any circumstances, the second car was mine.
During the entire time I was at Tesla, staff discussions about the early production cars rarely referred to the first two cars as "P1" and "P2." They were simply called "Elon's car" and "Martin's car." Everyone at Tesla knew this, and everyone knew how important these cars and their production sequence meant to both of us.
Early cars of every significant new model of car - especially the first one and to a lesser degree the second one - are far more interesting (and collectible) than any subsequent car. Elon knows this; Tesla's board of directors knows this; anyone who follows collectible cars knows this. By building P3 (and possibly other cars) before mine, The decision makers at Tesla have deliberately chosen to devalue my car and to take something away from me that they knew mattered to me very much. They have also violated the written terms of their agreement with me. And Elon broke his promise to me.
Though I admire your generous interpretation, I cannot imagine any motivation for their action other than meanness and malice.
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I took the liberty to quote Martin's last post at Tesla's blog and ask them to comment on it. I did that amost immediately after Martin posted it and so far it hasn't yet showed up. I am certain it will show up eventualy... or will it?
Looking at this from a business perspective, at some stage there was bound to be a negative customer experience. And it is in the nature of things that bad news forces out good. Goes with the territory.
I can't believe that Tesla have sleep-walked into letting this happen this early in the schedule with car 2/3 when there are so few other customer experiences out there to provide balance.
I'm sure if George Clooney was "not happy" with his treatment, Tesla would pull out all the stops to prevent the matter reaching the media or the blog-sphere.
In the relative silence all we can hear is Tesla kicking Martin.
There are two choices - treat Martin like the other Signature 100 customers or give us the ol' razzle dazzle with news of whitestar etc and hope it drowns out the mistreatment.
Personally, i hope for the former.
I can't believe that Tesla have sleep-walked into letting this happen this early in the schedule with car 2/3 when there are so few other customer experiences out there to provide balance.
I'm sure if George Clooney was "not happy" with his treatment, Tesla would pull out all the stops to prevent the matter reaching the media or the blog-sphere.
In the relative silence all we can hear is Tesla kicking Martin.
There are two choices - treat Martin like the other Signature 100 customers or give us the ol' razzle dazzle with news of whitestar etc and hope it drowns out the mistreatment.
Personally, i hope for the former.
Well with only 5 posts (at the time), Chris H. has certainly managed to have a large impact on this forum. Here's the response Siry posted to the TM blog. I copy it here for archival purposes:
Tesla Motors - feel
I have to say, though, his dramatic exit and his handling of this P3/P2 issue is a real PR blunder. What value does the VIN# have if it's not an accurate way for collectors to determine production order? Martin has a legitimate point, and as the head of service, Siry should be seeing to Martin's satisfaction as a customer.
Tesla Motors - feel
Like others, I find it disappointing that Darryl chose to leave the forum. I certainly appreciated his input here, even if it was infrequent and at times vague. Since none of us have Roadsters yet, most of what we can do here is speculate about what's going on with the car and the company. It was useful to have the occasional comment from someone still inside. (Of course as a scientist and engineer, I'd prefer to hear from engineers rather than sales/marketing, but that's neither here not there.) At any rate, his contributions had value and will be missed.
I have to say, though, his dramatic exit and his handling of this P3/P2 issue is a real PR blunder. What value does the VIN# have if it's not an accurate way for collectors to determine production order? Martin has a legitimate point, and as the head of service, Siry should be seeing to Martin's satisfaction as a customer.
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Vfx, I'm pretty sure that way the original intent of this forum. It's just that people don't have any cars yet. You may recall that this site had a major reorganization a while back. There used to be tons of specific sub forums on everything you'd expect from a car forum with almost no posts. Also the general EV forum (Electric Performance) was it's own separate web site. With overlapping topics, it was unclear where one should post and the whole thing was a bit of a mess. The current setup is much better. As people get their own cars and there's enough content in a specific category, sub forums will likely be created. (Where's dsacks6 these days?)
Also, I've never seen it, but I heard that the TM site has an owners only forum. It's likely to also serve that purpose once people get cars.
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I would like to say to everyone that I am sorry that the effect of my questions and commentary was to prompt Darryl to abandon this blog. That was not my intent. My hope was that I could encourage Darryl to be more forthright and honest with all of us, and to drop the sales-speak facade. I know that he was the last "insider" who was still proffering information to us from that perspective. I do question the value of some of that information, as I discover more lapses in his stories, but still, I do recognize the value of even corrupted information.
Please accept my apologies regarding this matter, and rest assured that I have no intention of alienating any other members of this blog.
All the best,
Chris H.
Please accept my apologies regarding this matter, and rest assured that I have no intention of alienating any other members of this blog.
All the best,
Chris H.
Martin, I try my best to give the benefit of the doubt, but you really have a point here. This compounded with Dogtown's observation that they were deliberately calling VIN3 as "Production model #2," really means that Tesla knew what they were doing.
If it's any consolation, your car (assuming you ever get it) should still have a large collectors value. Because of it's easily recognizable and distinctive paint job, it's history (it will have been owned by the company's original founder*), and even this controversy (collectors like an item to have an interesting story), make it likely to be more valuable than P2/VIN3. If I were a collector in the future, I'd prefer your car over even Elon's P1. Let's hope you get your car soon.
Does Tesla issue a document with each car certifying it's production number?
*Yes, I realize the phrase "original founder" is redundant.
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Siry said
Darryl told me that Elon signed a sales agreement that had this clause. So what? Does anyone seriously believe that Tesla would re-order the cars such that Elon's was not the first one?
Note that Autoblog reported on February 18th this year that the second car produced would be mine. Darryl says here that he does not see how he could be more forthcoming. This is an example for him: He could have corrected Autoblog when they reported this. He did not - yet we know he reads Autoblog.
Darryl could also have been more forthcoming by letting me know Tesla's decision to violate the terms of their agreement with me in advance so that we could have discussed it and resolved the issues before the damage was done.
This is more partial truths from Darryl... The real reason Darryl called was not to tell me that my car was going to be built, nor to come clean on their re-ordering of the cars. It was an attempt to get me to sign the bogus agreement that I described earlier: an attempt to make it okay to re-order my car after the fact. Darryl claims here that Tesla has the right to re-order the cars based on the sales agreement. If so, it is not in any sales agreement that I signed. To the contrary, I have written assurances (from 2007) from Tesla that they would not change my position in the production sequence.
Darryl told me that Elon signed a sales agreement that had this clause. So what? Does anyone seriously believe that Tesla would re-order the cars such that Elon's was not the first one?
Note that Autoblog reported on February 18th this year that the second car produced would be mine. Darryl says here that he does not see how he could be more forthcoming. This is an example for him: He could have corrected Autoblog when they reported this. He did not - yet we know he reads Autoblog.
Darryl could also have been more forthcoming by letting me know Tesla's decision to violate the terms of their agreement with me in advance so that we could have discussed it and resolved the issues before the damage was done.
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stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
It's a sad turn of events quite recently; personally I don't think personal attacks are ever appropriate. What Dogtown said was true, don't shoot the messenger; after all he's not the one making the decisions here. So now we have shot him and, as mentioned, our last insider link is gone. And to think that Darryl still regularly visits TTAC when they tend to be about 100x harsher on Tesla Motors than us; except this time we resorted to some personal attacks. I guess that's just a lesson to us all.
But moving onwards, I wish the best for you, Martin, and hope Tesla Motors decides to resolve this issue gracefully. So far it seems like they haven't treated you very well, not as a customer and definitely not as a founder.
But moving onwards, I wish the best for you, Martin, and hope Tesla Motors decides to resolve this issue gracefully. So far it seems like they haven't treated you very well, not as a customer and definitely not as a founder.
Hi Martin,
More good examples of obfuscation and deception from Darryl. I wonder if you could tell us what date the phone call took place which Darryl is referring to when he says:
"I was the one who called Martin personally months ago and told him that VINF003 had already been started when we put VINF002 on the line."
I am particularly interested in the part that says "told him that VINF003 had already been started". I figure the date was somewhere around February 25th 2008. If this is the case then TM started regular production at least 3 weeks before they claim to have in their press release and blog. Maybe this isn't a big deal to some people, but if it is true then it is another example of TM deliberately misleading their customers and their fans.
BTW, how are the ground squirrels doing? :smile:
All the best,
Chris H.
More good examples of obfuscation and deception from Darryl. I wonder if you could tell us what date the phone call took place which Darryl is referring to when he says:
"I was the one who called Martin personally months ago and told him that VINF003 had already been started when we put VINF002 on the line."
I am particularly interested in the part that says "told him that VINF003 had already been started". I figure the date was somewhere around February 25th 2008. If this is the case then TM started regular production at least 3 weeks before they claim to have in their press release and blog. Maybe this isn't a big deal to some people, but if it is true then it is another example of TM deliberately misleading their customers and their fans.
BTW, how are the ground squirrels doing? :smile:
All the best,
Chris H.
What personal attacks? What lesson?
He is a PR person! He is payed big money to take all the beating and respond to it. Be assured that he monitors this site very closely. His theatrical last post is pure bullshit. He is only trying to quiet us. I reposted Martin's post at Tesla site in very civilized way. It was censored.
Evil triumphs when good people do nothing. Good public relations are a must for successful companies. Even more so for a start up in a car business. If we really want to have EVs one day they can only come out of good companies. And Tesla Motors is not a good company any more. Precisely because of weasels like Darryl, Elon and probably some more.
stopcrazypp,
I would just like to point out that there were no personal attacks on Darryl. That was simply an idea that he managed to plant in your mind (quite successfully it seems). I would urge you to read over the posts again, carefully.
I did not even call him a liar. I simply urged him to be honest. There is a difference.
Also, consider this comment that I made on an earlier post:
"Please answer this. If somebody lies to you, or deliberately misleads you, and you call them on it, does that constitute a personal attack? Should you just remain silent and respect their "right" to be cavalier with the truth? I think that's how we ended up with G.W. in the White House isn't it?"
I hope that this helps to clarify the situation for you.
BTW, your moniker always makes me smile :smile:.
All the best,
Chris H.
I would just like to point out that there were no personal attacks on Darryl. That was simply an idea that he managed to plant in your mind (quite successfully it seems). I would urge you to read over the posts again, carefully.
I did not even call him a liar. I simply urged him to be honest. There is a difference.
Also, consider this comment that I made on an earlier post:
"Please answer this. If somebody lies to you, or deliberately misleads you, and you call them on it, does that constitute a personal attack? Should you just remain silent and respect their "right" to be cavalier with the truth? I think that's how we ended up with G.W. in the White House isn't it?"
I hope that this helps to clarify the situation for you.
BTW, your moniker always makes me smile :smile:.
All the best,
Chris H.
Chris, I don't blame you for Siry's departure. However, I will say it's best to err on the side of caution and maintain a level of tact. Especially with written comments, since interpretation can vary widely. This is a valuable forum and I'd prefer it stays that way.
Siry's reaction was certainly way over the top. He may have felt a little ganged up on, but as a PR person he should understand that the comments of a few don't necessarily reflect the opinion of the entire group. He should also know how to deal with such situations gracefully. Siry himself resorted to name calling (e.g. piece of work) and cynicism. To compare us to TTAC is unwarranted hyperbole. Yet he continues to give them plenty of info (e.g. here), while they are extremely rude towards him and Tesla. We are here simply because we are Tesla fans. He should understand that. As a professional in public relations, Darryl should hold himself to a higher standard.
Siry's reaction was certainly way over the top. He may have felt a little ganged up on, but as a PR person he should understand that the comments of a few don't necessarily reflect the opinion of the entire group. He should also know how to deal with such situations gracefully. Siry himself resorted to name calling (e.g. piece of work) and cynicism. To compare us to TTAC is unwarranted hyperbole. Yet he continues to give them plenty of info (e.g. here), while they are extremely rude towards him and Tesla. We are here simply because we are Tesla fans. He should understand that. As a professional in public relations, Darryl should hold himself to a higher standard.
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Thanks Doug,
thats good to know. I stuck my neck out to get at the truth behind the delivery delay of Martin's car. I probably shouldn't get so personally involved with other people's problems, but when I see injustice of this magnitude I can't help myself. That, plus the fact that I have been following Tesla's progress for nearly two years now, quietly, on the sidelines. Over that time I have developed a great deal of respect and admiration for Martin. I once admired Elon Musk too, but he managed to cure me of that. I could not stand quietly by while I saw Martin being treated so badly by people who gladly accepted credit for Martin's hard work. I realize the power, and the liability, of the written word. I try to use it responsibly. I hope you understand my position.
All the best,
Chris H.
thats good to know. I stuck my neck out to get at the truth behind the delivery delay of Martin's car. I probably shouldn't get so personally involved with other people's problems, but when I see injustice of this magnitude I can't help myself. That, plus the fact that I have been following Tesla's progress for nearly two years now, quietly, on the sidelines. Over that time I have developed a great deal of respect and admiration for Martin. I once admired Elon Musk too, but he managed to cure me of that. I could not stand quietly by while I saw Martin being treated so badly by people who gladly accepted credit for Martin's hard work. I realize the power, and the liability, of the written word. I try to use it responsibly. I hope you understand my position.
All the best,
Chris H.
Not much, I guess. Looks like out of sequence VIN's do happen:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/tesla-motors/1128-decoding-tesla-vin-s.html#post7897
At any rate, Martin's said his agreement was for the second car produced not the second in the VIN sequence. And apparently VIN F002 doesn't mean much.
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