Still it would be better than the humans around my neck of the woods, straight over the roundabout lol
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Self-driving cars UK Discussion
- Thread starter randompixel
- Start date
Hey,
With the latest FSD Beta v10.69 update see here:
2022.16.3.10 Official Tesla Release Notes - Software Updates
Tesla software update 2022.16.3.10 (FSD Beta 10.69) includes Full Self-Driving (Beta) Suspension, FSD Beta v10.69 Release Notes, Full Self-Driving (Beta), Driving Visualization Improvements, Cabin Camera, Autopilot Maximum Speed, Driver Profiles, Navigation Energy Prediction, Regenerative...www.notateslaapp.com
I've been trying to better understand the differences (if any) between the USA FSD Beta and UK FSD Beta.
The first question I have is, is there anywhere that clearly breakdown the regional differences. What the USA has that we in the U.K. do not?
Many Thanks
Seems there is a lot of confusion around what things are and who has what. This isn't helped by the way Tesla name things and people talk about things.
At the risk of someone here telling me I'm wrong, I like to think of the things that Tesla offer on their website as packages of functionality:
- Autopilot - Traffic aware cruise-control and lane-keeping ; included with all cars
- Enhanced Autopilot - As Autopilot, but also: Summon, Smart Summon, Autopark & "Navigate on Autopilot" (NoA) for highways including lane changing and taking an exit. For countries that follow UNECE regulations NoA is stricter and requires more input from the driver and is limited in areas like the amount the wheel can turn automatically and lateral g-forces that can be exerted under computer running.
- Full Self Driving - As Enhanced Autopilot, but also: Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control & "Autosteer on City Streets" (coming soon)
From here it gets interesting. The Tesla development team have effectively split their codebase into two for Full Self Driving. For users in the USA, following a number of hoops to jump through they can opt to switch their software to the newer fork of code called "FSD Beta". For everyone else, they remain on an older version of the autopilot system which *appears* to not be under active development.
For USA users on FSD Beta, the "Highway stack" also appears to be disconnected from "City Streets" and uses the global version.
At some unspecified point in the future they will merge the two City Streets and Highway back together again for FSD Beta users (people refer to "single-stack") then re-integrate to a common fork/branch for all users. Once this happens there is _expected_ (but not guaranteed) to be improvements across all 3 package levels, but the cars in UNECE will still be bound by tighter regulations which may limit what the car can do than those in the USA, Canada and Norway (for example).
So actually, outside of the USA, nobody has FSD Beta because nobody can opt-in to switch their software to the newer branch/fork of code, they only have the FSD package which adds "Traffic Light and Stop Sign" control to Enhanced Autopilot.
It also does appear that user interface updates in the car are disconnected from autopilot updates, so everyone still gets regular new features for the user interface. In fact, FSD Beta users are usually behind in their UI updates as the UI code would have to be synced across to their different branch/fork.
You can make a car impossible to crash and that is not the same thing as a car that won't exceed the speed limit. I posted the relevant video in my post above. You might find it interesting. In essence the car is perfectly spatially aware. You are driving and heading towards a building. It knows you are going to hit the building with 100% certainty so it brakes and steers you to safety. I would certainly want a car that can save my life if I do something really stupid. Tesla already prevents 30 accidents A DAY where the driver accidentally floors the accelerator when they intended to hit the brake. You don't like that accident prevention feature either?
Also, try buying a car in the EU shortly that WILL exceed the speed limit.
Europe Now Requires All New Cars To Have Anti-Speeding Monitors
The European Union has mandated that all new vehicles sold after 2024 must include anti-speeding technology from the factory.
www.thedrive.com
Zilla91
Active Member
Are you saying this is a feature unique to Tesla?
In the same way it thinks I’m about to crash into a parked car if I go past it at over 5mph or on the motorway when I go past a lorry or an overhead gantry?
If you're going 120 down the A40 and you hit a bend 'steering you to safety' isn't going to work. Your tyres just don't have the traction for that. Nor is braking - stopping distance would be something like half a mile.
To take a less silly example, going towards the lights, multiple lanes and the car in front stops suddenly. If you're *lucky* your braking distance is short enough you don't hit them. You can't steer out of it.. cars to the left and right. If you're not lucky, you crash, and no AI in the world is going to get out of that situation.
So no you can't make a car that can't crash. You can make it *less likely* to crash - which is why things like AEB are mandated these days - but not stopping it entirely whilst there's a human involved.
To take a less silly example, going towards the lights, multiple lanes and the car in front stops suddenly. If you're *lucky* your braking distance is short enough you don't hit them. You can't steer out of it.. cars to the left and right. If you're not lucky, you crash, and no AI in the world is going to get out of that situation.
So no you can't make a car that can't crash. You can make it *less likely* to crash - which is why things like AEB are mandated these days - but not stopping it entirely whilst there's a human involved.
> Tesla already prevents 30 accidents A DAY where the driver accidentally floors the accelerator when they intended to hit the brake.
There's no way anyone could know that figure even if it was true.
If you floor the accelerator the car accelerates As it should. There are plenty of cases of misapplication of the accelerator in Teslas - in fact there was even an investigation into it in the US because it happened so often.
If I were to get into my car now and floor the accelerator it'd demolish the wall and end up in the living room. Because I told it to.
There's no way anyone could know that figure even if it was true.
If you floor the accelerator the car accelerates As it should. There are plenty of cases of misapplication of the accelerator in Teslas - in fact there was even an investigation into it in the US because it happened so often.
If I were to get into my car now and floor the accelerator it'd demolish the wall and end up in the living room. Because I told it to.
There’s no luck here. You are obliged to ensure that you can stop without hitting the car in front by leaving an appropriate distance. An AI driver can manage this too.
Old news. The requirement is that a car must have either a warning (audible or tactile) for exceeding the speed limit or a speed limiter (manufacturer's choice as to which), which must default to active at the beginning of each drive (but can be disabled by the driver). I think most of us want well designed tools to help us avoid accidentally speeding. For those who actually want to deliberately break the speed limits, it seems that the regulations, slightly bizarrely, provide for them too with minimal inconvenience - AIUI it is mandatory in the regs for the car to provide the option to disable the warning or limiter, albeit there can be no option to disable it permanently, so you need to disable it at the beginning of each drive.Also, try buying a car in the EU shortly that WILL exceed the speed limit.
Europe Now Requires All New Cars To Have Anti-Speeding Monitors
The European Union has mandated that all new vehicles sold after 2024 must include anti-speeding technology from the factory.
EDIT: The key thing about these regulations, that no one talks about, is IMHO much more important. That is, that the car has to display the current speed limit on the dash. Sure, most modern cars, including Teslas, do this already - but the new regs will have conformance criteria against which cars will be evaluated, in terms of the percentage of the time they must display the correct speed limit. I'm sure it's no accident that Tesla has now started paying attention to variable speed limits and temporary speed restrictions on motorways!
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No one is going to have that in this country for a VERY long time.
That’s if you trust Musk’s timelines, which are about as reliable as a 1970s Binatone radio alarm clock. And even if we do get it it will still be Level 2 autonomy, as it is now in the US, and it will still be in permanent beta.
I believe he believes them. 10.69 is a big step forward. I believe Tesla will be the first (and probably only) company to solve FSD. I think they do this by 2024. Let’s see.
I’m ever hopeful that FSD becomes a reality before my senility sets in.
The joy of having the car take me somewhere without input from me will only be overshadowed by not knowing why I went there.
I’m not quite sure if you’re being serious or not because the thought of Tesla solving FSD (I presume you mean at least Level 4 autonomy) by 2024 is laughable.
As for Musk believing his timelines how about this for a quote from him in in February 2019:
“I think we will be feature complete, full self-driving, this year. Meaning the car will be able to find you in a parking lot, pick you up and take you all the way to your destination without an intervention. This year. I would say I am of certain of that, that is not a question mark.”
More than three years on and we are still absolutely nowhere near. Musk has been consistently and disastrously wrong in his predictions about FSD. I honestly can’t believe anyone still gives him any credibility, but clearly there are still some people who hang on to his every word.
2024? My advice would be not to put any money on it. You will lose every penny.
Tesla have stopped reporting their passive safety stats, given they did before, and still report other stats it suggests to me they don’t like them
As for what’s happening, I think city streets can’t compute fast enough to handle faster driving situations, that’s why there seems to be two versions in the same car. The questions will be can the cameras work at the range required as speed increases, and our Highway code stopping distances will tell us double the speed and you more than double the distance, the jump from 40mph to 80mph would mean looking 3x further, those cars and people in the distance have just become small pixilated dots. Secondly, can the compute power keep up as it has potentially gone up the square of the distance, ie if you now look twice as far in all directions you’ve an area 4x the size to manage, imagine tracking every moving car around you on a busy road at speed as opposed to maybe 3 or 4 moving cars and lots of parked ones.
The first incarnation of city streets/latest beta in Europe, if Tesla have any sense, will be for passive safety. You don’t need to manage an unprotected turn across traffic to offer benefit, stopping/warning a driver is however a benefit. The whole contextual aware side is only the starting point for self driving, if you have that then auto parking, auto headlights, even proper matrix headlights become easy, so we’ll see how quickly those things come along in a class leading sense.
As for what’s happening, I think city streets can’t compute fast enough to handle faster driving situations, that’s why there seems to be two versions in the same car. The questions will be can the cameras work at the range required as speed increases, and our Highway code stopping distances will tell us double the speed and you more than double the distance, the jump from 40mph to 80mph would mean looking 3x further, those cars and people in the distance have just become small pixilated dots. Secondly, can the compute power keep up as it has potentially gone up the square of the distance, ie if you now look twice as far in all directions you’ve an area 4x the size to manage, imagine tracking every moving car around you on a busy road at speed as opposed to maybe 3 or 4 moving cars and lots of parked ones.
The first incarnation of city streets/latest beta in Europe, if Tesla have any sense, will be for passive safety. You don’t need to manage an unprotected turn across traffic to offer benefit, stopping/warning a driver is however a benefit. The whole contextual aware side is only the starting point for self driving, if you have that then auto parking, auto headlights, even proper matrix headlights become easy, so we’ll see how quickly those things come along in a class leading sense.
Good grief! This reminds me of a post I made three years ago suggesting that Tesla would soon have meaningful competition. The fanboys ridiculed me, assured me that Tesla were at least ten years ahead of anyone else and there would be no serious completion for many years. Three years on you can choose from lots of superb EVs, many of which are superior to Tesla in at least some aspects.
If true autonomy can be achieved at all I don’t for one moment believe Tesla will be the only company to achieve it, nor do I believe they will be first. Other companies are making progress, but the difference is their CEOs don’t mouth off, making ridiculous claims that bear no resemblance to reality.
As for Musk’s timelines, what happened to the one MILLION robo taxis that were supposed to be on the streets by the end of 2020? And what happened to the “autosteer on city streets” that I was promised for my car by the end of 2019? I’m still waiting.
2024 for FSD? Ok!
I thought the days had long gone when people believed the myth that Tesla are the only outfit in town. That fallacy was busted a long time ago.
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