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Wiki Selling TSLA Options - Be the House

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Did you explore rolling out for a longer period, at a much higher strike, to remain cost-neutral on the roll but if eventually called, it would be at a much higher strike? There are a lot of new really high strikes being opened each day. I'd hate to let the shares go at $780.

This is what I've been doing. My first ever CC was at the beginning of this run at a $700 strike. I'm now rolled all the way to $1150 Mar 19. Learning a lot! I'd call this a good problem to have... TSLA relentlessly chasing my strike price. I'm only doing CCs, so not doing the wheel or anything.
 
Been trying to understand bxr140's posts about there being better risk/reward trading strategies, but I still don't get it. So I'm sticking to the wheel and rolling CC's, because I figured it's better to profit less doing what I know than to do something I don't understand in hopes of earning more.

So there's definitely a go-with-what-you-know element to trading. Consistency is most important, actual returns are secondary, and if you're really getting consistent results with the wheel, great. The general issue with the wheel (and, selling options in general) is that unless there's quite a bit of underlying strategy its hard to get consistent and material returns in the long run, over different kinds of markets. And IMHO if you build in enough strategy to do so, you realize its better to deviate from The Wheel proper...

Any hints on which ones to start researching? Just simple spreads and verticals?

That's the best place to start, yeah. Start looking at multi leg strategies, their upsides and downsides, and their proper (and improper) use cases. It really is imperative to really understand the primary greeks and how they work (Vega//IV, ∆/gamma, and theta), how they fluctuate, their relative importance (= theta is by far the weakest greek) and how they impact contract value.

Also, the reality is that, at least to a degree, multi-leg strategies are available to many of the folks here who are trading in IRAs--selling is of course limited to covered calls and cash covered puts and buying is limited to straight up buys, but there are a number of quasai-multi-leg positions that one can build up with those order types. For instance, one can still buy a put(s) to protect the downside on a cash covered put in an IRA, effectively backing into a spread (of sorts)....just one that requires more capital than a margined account. And when one has complex positions like that built up, one has more maintenance plays available. For instance, if underlying does go up against the [the cash covered put + bought puts] example, one can bail out of the bought puts while they still have value, and then ride out the cash covered put in relative safety since price has gone up. Or if underlying tanks, one could bail out of the cash covered put and just keep the +P going.

The other good news is that, whether folks realize it or not, reality is that most people here are actually making material gains on their sold contracts via underlying movement. You see plenty of people closing sold contracts early because favorable price action (and corollary contract ∆) has burned down the CV to an acceptable closable value. So...whether people realize it or not, they're actually making decent directional decisions without even trying. Imagine what just a little bit of conscious directional logic would do when applied to properly directional trading? And @Oil4AsphaultOnly that's what I'm really alluding to with respect to "better" risk/reward strategies. The "easy money" of straight selling of options relies on quantity to make returns--one needs to constantly be in position to see material returns. The (IMHO) "not that hard money" of directional trading relies on quality to make returns (which is a non-zero lift, of course), where one is more selective about entering positions that bring the opportunity of much higher returns.

For me, straight selling contracts (or credit spreads or Iron Condors) falls into two categories: 1) capturing high volatility (such as my ZM earnings play described above) and 2) capital that will go unused for some period of time (like the Iron Condor play for this week I described above). Beyond that, for me, I only sell as part of multi-leg strategies, both to offset high volatility and to reduce cost basis.

So if we go back to the current TSLA situation. My mistake is I entered a -C780 position late on Tuesday when TSLA was at 735 because I saw the stock being relatively stable and I thought Ok, looks like the S&P shenanigans are over and I can dip into the call selling again. Seemed pretty safe to me.

This is a pretty good case study. On the 5th (where the meatball is on the screenshot below) IV was coming out of a pretty significant trough, that ~bottomed where the previous post-corona troughs ~bottomed, and also one where IV30 dipped below IV360--which is a pretty good indicator of very low IV. Given that the post-corona IV peaks were way higher than IV30 on the 5th, one could have reasonably assessed that IV would have quite a bit of headroom to grow. Not to mention we're a few weeks out from earnings--while not a sure thing, its hard to bet against volatility increasing on a run up to earnings. In addition, price just broke ATH on the 4th during a run-up and, while that's again not a sure thing indicator of a continuing run, it is a little hard to bet against the trend at that point. So your mistake was 1) as you note incorrectly assessing price as stabilizing, but more importantly 2) selling a contract at just about the worst time (= low volatility).

Of course, given that it was an OTM CC you're still making out green so its not a total loss, and definitely no need to beat yourself up. On the flip side, had you put down, say, $1.8k (or so) on a march 1000 call late Tuesday, it would have closed at $8.3k today. For reference, I basically made this play, entering 50x July $1000 calls on the 29th (luckily, the last day of the trough) for ~$208k. Current value of the position is $782k.

upload_2021-1-8_14-47-56.png


Further assessing the above screenshot, IMHO the IV30 peaks at ~125 from the summer are probably not something we'll see in this IV rally, but the more recent ~105 peak is probably in reach--that would probably be when I'd start selling options. FTR I'm almost certainly going to repeat my above ZM earnings play (DITM CC) with TSLA and am just waiting for the right entry. Easy money would be to enter now. Smart money would be to enter later.

What I'm getting from your post here is a shift in mentality that I needed. Instead of thinking "let me make some extra from my TSLA holding while it's stagnant" I need to be thinking "here's your $400K working capital, what are you gonna do with it to get some returns". This is super valuable, thank you!

Yeah, exactly! If you have a core position that you want to keep, don't mess with it unless you're willing to let a call go underwater against them, potentially for months or even years. But if you also have some unallocated capital that's not invested because of your risk posture, use that in a manner that satisfies your risk tolerance. If that manner is The Wheel, great, if that's something more sophisticated, even better.
 
Rolled the 810c 01/15 to 835c 01/22 for a $1 net credit. This was after rolling a 780c 01/08 to 810c 01/15 for $1.7 net credit. So, now sitting on $6.95 of net credit accumulated since the 780c sale on 12/31.

Next roll, if there is one, likely to be 30+ days out and a much higher strike.

That said... all those margined puts are looking great and likely to clip tomorrow at target gains, absent some major downward price action.

Rolled half of the 810c 01/15 to 1000c 03/19 for a net $9/contract. Now a cumulative $15.95. Will likely roll down and closer on any kind of correction. Rolled the other half to 1000c 01/15 for a net debit (a painful net debit), mainly because I need to sell a chunk as I am closing on a house in 20 days, so time to unwind some of the covered calls and sell some shares.

Clipped both the 715p and 720p at 70% profits.
Sold 750p 01/15 for $4.9; I don't usually chase premium multiple times in the same expiration week, but this run-up has been a little unusual to say the least.

Net flat on both ends of strangles from the last 4 weeks, but a lot of pent up cumulative credit now sitting in the rolled calls. A quiet week would be nice at some point. :)
 
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i’m one of those selling CCs against all my shares. Sold feb 9 920s that I just rolled to feb 26 975s but I might have to just tap out in Feb.... Crazy price action doesn’t work with covered calls :rolleyes: Hey, you can’t always get what you want...


My argument, for those not wanting to lose their shares, is if you had got caught selling calls a month ago, and tried to do the wheel and get back in selling puts, you would be down a massive amount of money right now. Unless TSLA drops significantly, which it very possibly could, you'll never catch back up to it selling premium. Most here seem to be ok losing shares. I think that is really bad math if you're looking out 5-10 years. It works until it doesn't, and then it hurts really really bad.
 
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I’m not sure this has been discussed, but definitely need advice if this is a crazy idea or not. While perusing max pain, I noticed that ATM options pricing is somewhat symmetrical, and I had the crazy idea of selling both a call and put at the same strike/date and pocketing 2x premiums. I think this trade works best for someone who is finished accumulating shares, and mostly interested in principal protection like @adiggs, not someone who is still trying to accumulate shares.

Since I’m trading in an IRA, selling requires covered calls or cash secured puts. So, as an example, ATM Feb21 880s are $102.50. Thus, selling p&c both (while holding at least 100sh & $88k in the IRA account) will net $20,500 on $176k principal for a 11.6% return for 1.5 mo. Below 880, you get put another 100sh for the $88k, while above 880 you sell 100sh and have $176k+20.5=$196.5k. Either way, after close, you hold 200sh or $196.5k.

It appears to me that this trade is “profitable” as long as the SP stays above $777.5 and below $982.5. It provides some premium, up/downside protection, but fails when the SP exceeds +/-11.7%. Hmmmmm, coincidental numbers or just the options pricing model standard deviation?

As another example, for next week, the 880 premiums are $38.50 for $7.7k/176k=4.37%. Obviously, the closer to Friday that one opens this trade, the lower the premiums and the less chance that the SP runs away. Furthermore, one can open this trade at any price or time (as long as it’s ATM) and get a similar risk/return. At the extreme example, one could open it between 15:00-15:59 as the SP crosses an option pricing increment and have it exercised at 16:00. (I suppose there’s the highly unlikely scenario where the SP is pinned at the options strike and BOTH are exercised.:eek::confused::mad:o_O).

Finally, to minimize or offset some directional risk, one might hold the premiums in reserve, and buy a higher call, if the SP runs above the upper SP target.

So, walk me down off the edge here, what am I missing? Is this just a simple strangle, straddle, collar, wheel or other technique? Is it really a low risk (for being in the stock market) hedging strategy? If done weekly (with enough shares and capital), is this a simple way to generate 4%/wk and randomly bounce back and forth between gaining or losing 100 shares? I suppose, in a non-random or directional market, one might require 1000sh and >$500k cash since 8 weeks in a row, the SP might exceed the target. Hmmm, probably need to choose a higher strike each week, based on long term expected returns. Thoughts?
 
So there's definitely a go-with-what-you-know element to trading. Consistency is most important, actual returns are secondary, and if you're really getting consistent results with the wheel, great. The general issue with the wheel (and, selling options in general) is that unless there's quite a bit of underlying strategy its hard to get consistent and material returns in the long run, over different kinds of markets. And IMHO if you build in enough strategy to do so, you realize its better to deviate from The Wheel proper...



That's the best place to start, yeah. Start looking at multi leg strategies, their upsides and downsides, and their proper (and improper) use cases. It really is imperative to really understand the primary greeks and how they work (Vega//IV, ∆/gamma, and theta), how they fluctuate, their relative importance (= theta is by far the weakest greek) and how they impact contract value.

Also, the reality is that, at least to a degree, multi-leg strategies are available to many of the folks here who are trading in IRAs--selling is of course limited to covered calls and cash covered puts and buying is limited to straight up buys, but there are a number of quasai-multi-leg positions that one can build up with those order types. For instance, one can still buy a put(s) to protect the downside on a cash covered put in an IRA, effectively backing into a spread (of sorts)....just one that requires more capital than a margined account. And when one has complex positions like that built up, one has more maintenance plays available. For instance, if underlying does go up against the [the cash covered put + bought puts] example, one can bail out of the bought puts while they still have value, and then ride out the cash covered put in relative safety since price has gone up. Or if underlying tanks, one could bail out of the cash covered put and just keep the +P going.

The other good news is that, whether folks realize it or not, reality is that most people here are actually making material gains on their sold contracts via underlying movement. You see plenty of people closing sold contracts early because favorable price action (and corollary contract ∆) has burned down the CV to an acceptable closable value. So...whether people realize it or not, they're actually making decent directional decisions without even trying. Imagine what just a little bit of conscious directional logic would do when applied to properly directional trading? And @Oil4AsphaultOnly that's what I'm really alluding to with respect to "better" risk/reward strategies. The "easy money" of straight selling of options relies on quantity to make returns--one needs to constantly be in position to see material returns. The (IMHO) "not that hard money" of directional trading relies on quality to make returns (which is a non-zero lift, of course), where one is more selective about entering positions that bring the opportunity of much higher returns.

For me, straight selling contracts (or credit spreads or Iron Condors) falls into two categories: 1) capturing high volatility (such as my ZM earnings play described above) and 2) capital that will go unused for some period of time (like the Iron Condor play for this week I described above). Beyond that, for me, I only sell as part of multi-leg strategies, both to offset high volatility and to reduce cost basis.



This is a pretty good case study. On the 5th (where the meatball is on the screenshot below) IV was coming out of a pretty significant trough, that ~bottomed where the previous post-corona troughs ~bottomed, and also one where IV30 dipped below IV360--which is a pretty good indicator of very low IV. Given that the post-corona IV peaks were way higher than IV30 on the 5th, one could have reasonably assessed that IV would have quite a bit of headroom to grow. Not to mention we're a few weeks out from earnings--while not a sure thing, its hard to bet against volatility increasing on a run up to earnings. In addition, price just broke ATH on the 4th during a run-up and, while that's again not a sure thing indicator of a continuing run, it is a little hard to bet against the trend at that point. So your mistake was 1) as you note incorrectly assessing price as stabilizing, but more importantly 2) selling a contract at just about the worst time (= low volatility).

Of course, given that it was an OTM CC you're still making out green so its not a total loss, and definitely no need to beat yourself up. On the flip side, had you put down, say, $1.8k (or so) on a march 1000 call late Tuesday, it would have closed at $8.3k today. For reference, I basically made this play, entering 50x July $1000 calls on the 29th (luckily, the last day of the trough) for ~$208k. Current value of the position is $782k.

View attachment 625832

Further assessing the above screenshot, IMHO the IV30 peaks at ~125 from the summer are probably not something we'll see in this IV rally, but the more recent ~105 peak is probably in reach--that would probably be when I'd start selling options. FTR I'm almost certainly going to repeat my above ZM earnings play (DITM CC) with TSLA and am just waiting for the right entry. Easy money would be to enter now. Smart money would be to enter later.



Yeah, exactly! If you have a core position that you want to keep, don't mess with it unless you're willing to let a call go underwater against them, potentially for months or even years. But if you also have some unallocated capital that's not invested because of your risk posture, use that in a manner that satisfies your risk tolerance. If that manner is The Wheel, great, if that's something more sophisticated, even better.

:p I saw no trend. From the P&D Q3 report to earnings IV dipped from October 2nd to the 22nd 90 to 60. I thought that after the inclusion IV would stay down and the stock be more stable with lower IV levels than we seen in the past. After the huge run up with the inclusion an all I thought the stock would take a break and down trend a little... I was hugely mistaken on all my assumptions haha.

Where do you see the stock go from here?
 
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My argument, for those not wanting to lose their shares, is if you had got caught selling calls a month ago, and tried to do the wheel and get back in selling puts, you would be down a massive amount of money right now. Unless TSLA drops significantly, which it very possibly could, you'll never catch back up to it selling premium. Most here seem to be ok losing shares. I think that is really bad math if you're looking out 5-10 years. It works until it doesn't, and then it hurts really really bad.

Well, again, I’m selling puts as a side effect of having margin that I don’t want to use. If the shares get assigned, I don’t want to keep those particular margined shares. I’m ok having them long enough to sell a CC with a good premium that I think will be assigned. And if not assigned will at least cover the interest and provide some income. But I’d like to get out of using the margin relatively quickly. I recognize this is not maximizing my net worth if the stock continues to rise like crazy, but I have non-margin shares to catch that wave.
 
Hi guys, I need advice and am trying to wrap my mind around possible solutions for my TSLA Jan 29, 2021 CC as I do not want to get assigned on my shares. Pardon me if a similar case has been discussed before and point me to it. I have not gone through the entire thread. I am detailing my situation below:

What:
-Own 100 TSLA (cost basis $ 331)
-Opened a Covered Call Dec 30 on my 100 shares for Jan 29, 2021 825 strike and netted a total credit of $10.05 (I should have not entered a transaction because my intent is to hold for the long term and did not have a clue that it will rise so quick even though I chose a lower delta (do not recall but it was around 5)

What I want to happen:
I have the following questions? I am -$9555.57 on this covered call and I could have bought back the call early on for a very small loss itself. It is behind me and I am looking ahead on how to repair it and come neutral, close this trade by financing it without paying out of my pocket. Please help repair this.

What I think will achieve to close this trade neutrally:

So at this point in time, as I understand, I have option to:
1. Roll my Jan 29 825 CC, premium for which is @105.60 --> Feb 12 (33 days) 860 with a premium of 105.50 resulting in credit of 0.03 and buy time.
2. Roll my Jan 29 825 CC to --> Mar 19 (68 days) 930 with a premium of 106.05 resulting in credit of 0.33 and buy time.

3. Roll my Jan 29 825 CC and deploy additional leg to cover the cost of the buy back. If so what strategy could work best. I am learning and therefore there may be better ideas and strategies than that I can think of and also, gotchas that I am not considering. I am trying to play around with below ideas.

a. I cannot add more than 4 legs into this transaction. So, If I add a Credit Put Spread into it with very conservative strikes to finance this buy back with 12 contracts
  • BTO TSLA JAN 29 2021 630.00 PUT
  • STO TSLA JAN 29 2021 710.50 PUT
"You are attempting to Buy to Open an option that is short in your account." Why would I get this message?

What is the best way to approach my situation?
 
What I think will achieve to close this trade neutrally:

So at this point in time, as I understand, I have option to:
1. Roll my Jan 29 825 CC, premium for which is @105.60 --> Feb 12 (33 days) 860 with a premium of 105.50 resulting in credit of 0.03 and buy time.
2. Roll my Jan 29 825 CC to --> Mar 19 (68 days) 930 with a premium of 106.05 resulting in credit of 0.33 and buy time.

Another alternative to consider would be to look at significantly higher strikes ($1200-$1500) in June/July (or even September) timeframe where you might be able to roll for a credit and have a significantly higher return if they were to be called away. The downside is that it will keep the covered call out there longer, but you have the benefit of a much higher return in the "worst case" of being called and potentially a greater opportunity for them to expire worthless than a price under $1,000 with a nearer expiration. Of course, all bets are off when we're appreciating $60+ a day! I have a large number of $1200 calls with expirations between February and July and if we keep rocketing higher, I'd look to roll those for a net credit and to at least capture a higher strike ($1500) in the event of a call.

As always, not advice! :cool:
 
Hi guys, I need advice and am trying to wrap my mind around possible solutions for my TSLA Jan 29, 2021 CC as I do not want to get assigned on my shares. Pardon me if a similar case has been discussed before and point me to it. I have not gone through the entire thread. I am detailing my situation below:

What:
-Own 100 TSLA (cost basis $ 331)
-Opened a Covered Call Dec 30 on my 100 shares for Jan 29, 2021 825 strike and netted a total credit of $10.05 (I should have not entered a transaction because my intent is to hold for the long term and did not have a clue that it will rise so quick even though I chose a lower delta (do not recall but it was around 5)

What I want to happen:
I have the following questions? I am -$9555.57 on this covered call and I could have bought back the call early on for a very small loss itself. It is behind me and I am looking ahead on how to repair it and come neutral, close this trade by financing it without paying out of my pocket. Please help repair this.

What I think will achieve to close this trade neutrally:

So at this point in time, as I understand, I have option to:
1. Roll my Jan 29 825 CC, premium for which is @105.60 --> Feb 12 (33 days) 860 with a premium of 105.50 resulting in credit of 0.03 and buy time.
2. Roll my Jan 29 825 CC to --> Mar 19 (68 days) 930 with a premium of 106.05 resulting in credit of 0.33 and buy time.

3. Roll my Jan 29 825 CC and deploy additional leg to cover the cost of the buy back. If so what strategy could work best. I am learning and therefore there may be better ideas and strategies than that I can think of and also, gotchas that I am not considering. I am trying to play around with below ideas.

a. I cannot add more than 4 legs into this transaction. So, If I add a Credit Put Spread into it with very conservative strikes to finance this buy back with 12 contracts
  • BTO TSLA JAN 29 2021 630.00 PUT
  • STO TSLA JAN 29 2021 710.50 PUT
"You are attempting to Buy to Open an option that is short in your account." Why would I get this message?

What is the best way to approach my situation?

Is closing at a loss (sell 11 shares to cover the loss) not an option? I'm contemplating doing this myself, but am holding out for the possibility that all this benchmark fund buying will be done soon ... ish. Then ride out the theta decay and close-out the options with less of a loss than now (they're march options, so too much time value left in them).
 
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What this whol
Is closing at a loss (sell 11 shares to cover the loss) not an option? I'm contemplating doing this myself, but am holding out for the possibility that all this benchmark fund buying will be done soon ... ish. Then ride out the theta decay and close-out the options with less of a loss than now (they're march options, so too much time value left in them).

I have serious doubts if benchmark buying is remotely close to done. They have just shown they are going about it "slow and steady", instead of causing a VW/Porsche-like infinity spike.

https://twitter.com/truth_tesla/status/1347470145309061120?s=21
 
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Is this just a simple strangle, straddle, collar, wheel or other technique? Is it really a low risk (for being in the stock market) hedging strategy?

In context of the question, a covered call and a cash covered put with the same strike are more or less the same position and have more or less the same profit/loss curve. So...not a lot to do there.

For better or worse your plays in an IRA need to add long calls or puts to balance Greeks of sold contracts.
 
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You are attempting to Buy to Open an option that is short in your account." Why would I get this message?

I suspect mostly because it’s a credit spread, which means that if price goes below 710.50 you start losing.

What is the best way to approach my situation?

First, consider not trying to get out of it all in one cycle. Multiple cycles with less aggressive targets will be less likely to go sideways.

Second, consider both splitting and flipping the contract into multiples. My go to in this situation would be multiple iron condors (in addition to a less aggressive covered call) but YMMV; at this point it’s all about where you don’t want the price to go.

Third, in general I prefer to keep my spreads close. At this price range I’d go for $50-60 at most, not $80. Better return on margin that way...

Finally, dont worry about only being able to do four legs on a ticket. A little bookkeeping on your end is all that’s necessary to send multiple tickets.
 
What do you mean by the above? Can you give an example, pls

Applying options strategy 'the wheel' to TSLA

Basically, you’re splitting the negative value of the single underwater contract across multiple contracts. It can be a bit of a deal with the devil if you do it wrong (you’re basically trading actual loses for the risk of potentially significantly more loss) but done smartly and not too aggressively it can pull you out of a bad place with little to no end game loss.
 
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I'm really interested in understanding more about the dynamic of roll timing. If you had a scenario of an ATM covered call, would there be a net difference in rolling a week early vs rolling the Thursday before expiration?

I understand that waiting until the Thursday before expiration, most of the extrinsic value is gone making the buy to close of the first leg cheaper. But wouldn't the value of the new sold call also have decreased a similar amount in that week, making the net amount after the roll the same?

Or is this a function of the increasing rate of theta decay in the final week of the making a difference in the net transaction, while the new contract is decreasing at a slower rate during that time?
 
I'm really interested in understanding more about the dynamic of roll timing. If you had a scenario of an ATM covered call, would there be a net difference in rolling a week early vs rolling the Thursday before expiration?

I understand that waiting until the Thursday before expiration, most of the extrinsic value is gone making the buy to close of the first leg cheaper. But wouldn't the value of the new sold call also have decreased a similar amount in that week, making the net amount after the roll the same?

Or is this a function of the increasing rate of theta decay in the final week of the making a difference in the net transaction, while the new contract is decreasing at a slower rate during that time?

I had this come up last week. You can calculate the "opportunity cost" to roll early by looking at 3 things:
1) current share price
2) current option premium
3) roll to option premium

The person I was talking about this last week, we looking at rolling a $700 call expiring on 1/8. At the time we were looking, it was like 1-2 days before expiration, and the $700 call price + the option premium for that was approximately equal to the current share price. I.e. $700 + $165 option premium (i.e. the buy to close price for the option) = $865 (+/- a dollar).

The call we rolled to was 4 weeks out, because it still had good theta (i.e. call value + premium was > share price). Things as close as 1 week for a roll had virtually no theta, and 2 weeks had so little it wasn't worth the time to roll to that option.


TL;DR version - when you roll, you NEED to look at what your opportunity cost to roll is. Has all or most of the theta decay occurred, or are you giving up a lot of that decay just to move to a further date early?
 
What this whol


I have serious doubts if benchmark buying is remotely close to done. They have just shown they are going about it "slow and steady", instead of causing a VW/Porsche-like infinity spike.

https://twitter.com/truth_tesla/status/1347470145309061120?s=21

Ha ha! For once my idle speculation is panning out! volume on TSLA is above normal (supporting the idea that benchmarks are still buying), but not at a rate that will drive the SP increasingly higher. My selfish/greedy little self is hoping this stays the case until my CC's expire. :D