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Wiki Selling TSLA Options - Be the House

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Didn't want to post because a lot of people have ITM or DITM CC's this week but oh well.

As I have mentioned many times up thread - IV is low, it has spiked 10 points this week however under 60 for me is low and not worth selling CC's or CSP's until it goes up.
Buying options is just too good of a deal to pass up.
I have been buying calls and rolling them up and out a week as they double in value and getting a credit plus an additional week of time value.
Just something to think about.......
Do you have any sort of pattern you're following for this that you can describe for us?

When opening the position are you doing 1 week, 4 week, .. calls? Are you selling ITM or OTM? How far, and how do you pick those?

I'm thinking today that the rule change that went into effect yesterday creates enough uncertainty (for me) that IV is too low to pay me for that uncertainty. Which as you point out is a good setup for buying options instead.

For the roll out and up on a double I assume that you're getting some of the entry price back each time. Does that happen on the first such roll - the second?


I would like to know more!
 
At the very least I suggest setting up a roll to see what it looks like. If you can get to say $725 for July 2 expiration do you like that better than $700 for tomorrow?

Or another possibility is to take the loss while its still small. The best I've come up with to avoid the steamroller is that when its close, the disciplined thing to do is get out of the way. Or at least as much out of the way as you can.
i agree coz i painfully learned that in the past - so now i just get out asap even if it means Market order or loss of shares on buyback; small loss is nothing compared to potential unpredictable massive loss, or nonstop debit rolling of DITM.
 
I've got some-c700s expiring tomorrow.

Currently I see a possibility to roll up and out to next week -c750's for the same money. Two weeks 780. Three weeks 800. Four weeks 820.


I'm going to hold on some more. If the call wall at 700 gets broken on volume I'll roll. But we're not there yet.
As do I - I'm waiting as well. I think the MMs will try their best to keep it just under $700 tomorrow. I'm pleasantly surprised by the roll alternatives - $50 for one week is pretty darn good.
 

@adiggs @bxr140 @generalenthu and all others, any thoughts on these trades, particularly the 1:2 spreads aspect?
Looks like the call side trade was hoping for shares trading within ~655 - ~725 range, and put side is positioning for a drop below 580.

Been avoiding this thread for a while but caught the mention.

Honestly didn't watch the YouTube so not 100% sure what they're proposing, but ratio spreads (front or back, both of which of course can be calls or puts) are fairly common strategies that has its place depending on one's analysis...though they're not my preferred method of managing P/L and The Greeks with respect to my flavor of analysis.

The Front Spread is useful if in a higher volatility environment since its two sold for one bought. Its more or less 'a little better' than a straight up naked sell, though the devil is in the details of "better".

The Back Spread is useful in a very bullish but high risk analysis, as it trades a loss around small underlying price action in favor for essentially the profit of an OTM +, AND ~zero downside risk. The other nice things are that it is typically entered at $0 (the ~ATM - pays for the 2x OTM +'s), and margin requirements are essentially just managing the 2/3 of the position that are effectively just a credit spread).
 
You can until they get too far OTM. If the SP moves up faster than $10/week, it will run away from you pretty quickly.

This is true and you will have roll calls for longer times frames but I don't think that's a big deal. We all have a price that we are confortable with loosing our shares; I plan to retire some day.

I end up rolling the 6x 665cc's to 690cc 07/02 this is the first time ever rolling calls. I am going to wait until tomorrow to decide what to do with the 670-680cc calls.
 
Do you have any sort of pattern you're following for this that you can describe for us? Yes - but worth a mention that this is just one strategy not the "Only" strategy.

When opening the position are you doing 1 week, 4 week, .. calls? Are you selling ITM or OTM? How far, and how do you pick those?
It's complicated - long and short is postulate what I think the directionality (not sure that's a word) is for the week and select calls or puts
BTO slightly 10 OTM contracts puts/calls on Monday (weeklies) and see where it goes on Tuesday.
If my directionality was correct and they have doubled in value or close to it, then roll to the next week for a higher strike on Calls or lower strike put for a credit that gets most or all of my initial investment back.

Tuesday after the roll - if directionality is the same -
BTO 40 contracts slightly farther OTM with my initial investment from Monday that I got back.
If reversal of direction flip the call/put

Wednesday look to roll the 40 contracts from the day before out and around the same strike but move it down to 20 contracts and get more credit back.
Look to open 100 new contracts put or call depending again where it is going directionally
Slightly farther OTM with the profits from the roll just completed

Thursday Look to roll the 100 contracts if the movement is still going the same way to the next week - drop the number down to 40 or 50 contracts to have a lower or higher strike (depending on put or call) and get my initial investment back once again.

I'm thinking today that the rule change that went into effect yesterday creates enough uncertainty (for me) that IV is too low to pay me for that uncertainty. Which as you point out is a good setup for buying options instead.

For the roll out and up on a double I assume that you're getting some of the entry price back each time. Does that happen on the first such roll - the second?


I would like to know more!

Some weeks are a bust but when it works I end up with a LOT of open contracts, my investment back, a profit and an additional week of value.

It gets more complicated because I also continue to roll the contracts from say a monday or tuesday that I rolled already again for more credit and additional time as well if the direction is the same.
 
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Well, that was painful. Sold a $645 call on Tuesday for a couple hundred, thinking it was safe since the MM's have been keeping the SP fairly low for a while now.

Goes up to $660 next day, I keep the call, thinking that the MM's will try for a downward push back to Max Pain on Thursday or Friday.

Went up to $690 when I awoke, and I decided to do some damage control and bought back the call for $4.5k loss. Now, knowing my luck, it'll drop back to $640 on Friday now.

Thought about rolling the call, but that only would shave $10 off the strike. I guess the volitiality as gone down with the SP being squished for so long, as even further out weeks the cost basis doesn't improve much. Good news is that my put for Jan22 is clearly profitable again, lol.
 
For the run away case, the share price also must never come down significantly after the significant rise, like the last year run.
Do we expect such sustained strong run away now? Less likely?
This is true and the expectation varies among market participants.

The event that happened to me and has led to my more aggressive rolls is I had some 810ish short puts back in Feb, right before the very fast move down to $600. I rolled a few times for a strike improvement and net credit but not nearly as fast as the shares moved and I've landed on 760 short puts for the last 3-4 months. I can keep rolling them the rest of the year, the year after, and forever really until the shares finally go back to ~$760 and turn the trade into a winning position.

And along the way the cash that backs those short puts is "dead money". It's reserved for the puts so I can't use it to sell other puts. Or buy leaps. Or withdraw it to use for a downpayment on a house, or pay for a college education, or a next gen roadster, or donate to a charity I really believe in. Anything.

That's on the put side, where I consider a return to 760 to be inevitable.


On the call side, which hasn't happened to me but I spend a lot of time thinking about, my worry is that the shares take off and they never come back. I've seen that happen twice (2013, 2020 - still an assumption on 2020). I own shares for the exposure to these big moves up, so losing them at a much lower strike is an outcome I want to avoid.

If I can roll the strike up fast enough then maybe I get to an 800 strike before I lose the ability to roll for strike improvements (shares at $900?). In that case taking assignment really won't bother me all that much. I'll lose out on that extra $100 share price improvement (in my made up example) but I've also rolled the strike aggressively so I get most of the run from the lower 600s that we started this last week.

And I've generated income along the way (important to me) AND I've put myself in a position to earn a return that I wouldn't have earned if the shares hadn't kept going. Which they almost always don't. It's the almost always part I worry about.


And that leads to my personal rule - roll early and often. In particular roll when within $5 of the strike. The quality of rolls while $5 OTM that others have reported sound amazing to me. I've been using ATM and $5 ITM as my timing to roll. I'll probably pull the trigger that extra $5 early the next time this comes up. The way I think about this is that I've collected some premium in week 1 but I haven't earned it yet. With the shares approaching my share price I decide early that I'm not going to earn it this week and roll to next week. My earning of that initial credit will take an extra week (or 2, or 3, or ..). As long as I have effective rolls I'll keep using them.

And at some point when I lose access to the effective rolls then it is time to take assignment, and start selling puts with the cash.
 
For the run away case, the share price also must never come down significantly after the significant rise, like the last year run.
Do we expect such sustained strong run away now? Less likely?

Less likely than 2020, yes, but it can still get ugly pretty quickly. Because you won't know that it's coming back down until it happens, so your choice each week until that happens will essentially be:

1) Roll out 1 week at a time to the same strike for zero credit and maybe even a small debit, hoping it comes down and feeling more pain each day if it keeps going up.

2) Roll out a few months to get the strike up a little higher. The problem with this is "the dip" you were hoping for now might come and go before your now-farther out strike expires.
 
Ok Dunce cap is coming on.

So looks like my $685 CC's are somehow OTM but barely. I don't know what to do, lol. I am certainly prepared to roll if need be, but I'm not sure on timing.

How early can calls be assigned practically? How much extrinsic value needs to remain for them to not be assigned?

Say the stock is at $686 early in the day tomorrow and stays there. When do I need to roll to ensure no assignment?

If the stock is at $684 early in the day and stays there, it is unlikely the premium will go down sufficiently until the last hour or so to avoid rolling. So if the price is close to strike, I will likely have to roll either way, right?

I always had a plan for what to do with ITM CC's, but ATM is hard!
 
Ok Dunce cap is coming on.

So looks like my $685 CC's are somehow OTM but barely. I don't know what to do, lol. I am certainly prepared to roll if need be, but I'm not sure on timing.

How early can calls be assigned practically? How much extrinsic value needs to remain for them to not be assigned?

Say the stock is at $686 early in the day tomorrow and stays there. When do I need to roll to ensure no assignment?

If the stock is at $684 early in the day and stays there, it is unlikely the premium will go down sufficiently until the last hour or so to avoid rolling. So if the price is close to strike, I will likely have to roll either way, right?

I always had a plan for what to do with ITM CC's, but ATM is hard!

I think you're very unlikely to be assigned early on those. I have only ever been assigned with options $50+ OTM with zero time value a few days before expiration.
 
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I also sold the 695p for next week. My entire week has been an endless saga of risk reversing: rolling calls to a much farther strike with premium funded by an aggressive short put.
Began the week with 12x 680 6/25, 12x 720 7/2 and 4x 800 7/9. Now I have 12x 725 6/25, 5x 800 7/2, 16x 850 7/9, 1x 1400 3/2022, and 1x 695p 7/2. Opened and closed multiple puts for a profit.
AH yesterday I also bought 100 share @662 on margin since the stock doesn't usually rest after just one day. Sold them this morning @690 so it helped.
 
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Less likely than 2020, yes, but it can still get ugly pretty quickly. Because you won't know that it's coming back down until it happens, so your choice each week until that happens will essentially be:

1) Roll out 1 week at a time to the same strike for zero credit and maybe even a small debit, hoping it comes down and feeling more pain each day if it keeps going up.

2) Roll out a few months to get the strike up a little higher. The problem with this is "the dip" you were hoping for now might come and go before your now-farther out strike expires.
Why would you have to roll for a debit? In the case it’s very very deep ITM?
 
It's complicated - long and short is postulate what I think the directionality (not sure that's a word) is for the week and select calls or puts
BTO slightly 10 OTM contracts puts/calls on Monday (weeklies) and see where it goes on Tuesday.
If my directionality was correct and they have doubled in value or close to it, then roll to the next week for a higher strike on Calls or lower strike put for a credit that gets most or all of my initial investment back.

Tuesday after the roll - if directionality is the same -
BTO 40 contracts slightly farther OTM with my initial investment from Monday that I got back.
If reversal of direction flip the call/put

Wednesday look to roll the 40 contracts from the day before out and around the same strike but move it down to 20 contracts and get more credit back.
Look to open 100 new contracts put or call depending again where it is going directionally
Slightly farther OTM with the profits from the roll just completed

Thursday Look to roll the 100 contracts if the movement is still going the same way to the next week - drop the number down to 40 or 50 contracts to have a lower or higher strike (depending on put or call) and get my initial investment back once again.



Some weeks are a bust but when it works I end up with a LOT of open contracts, my investment back, a profit and an additional week of value.

It gets more complicated because I also continue to roll the contracts from say a monday or tuesday that I rolled already again for more credit and additional time as well if the direction is the same.
I have to say, @UltradoomY strategy has been a game changer for me. We will see how it does when the dust settles and there is a time and place for everything but my goodness!

I’ve named @UltradoomY strategy the Time Cop Turbo Wheel. I haven’t felt comfortable selling calls this week, and I’ve wanted to try a spread but have been too terrified to try it looking at the losses even with short runways.

I’ve had great results running a version of his method the past 3 weeks but it didn’t click for me until I understood the skimming profit and rolling for time concept.

But the rolling for time rather than taking all the profit as drastically changed my approach.

Locking in profit by rolling for time on bought options is the craziest thing I’ve ever seen.

Every new position wants to become a Leap and all you have to guide it home.

Are you too good for your home? Answer me!
 
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Why would you have to roll for a debit? In the case it’s very very deep ITM?
Yes, very DITM so no time value and wide bid-ask on both legs. For example, the ask on the 6/25 is slightly more than the ask on the 7/2:



15851F8B-62B7-4F69-8ACF-6A5ED7241778.jpeg
 
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