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Wiki Selling TSLA Options - Be the House

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Is this correct? Could my broker possibly liquate 100 of my shares or a LEAP in the same account to cover the short call assignment?
No. They will always just deliver shares to the call holder. If you don't have enough shares they will buy them at the market price and leave you with a negative cash balance. Then you have to deal with covering that with selling/exercising your LEAP(S).
 
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At 1130 TSLA has at most maybe 200% upside until 2025 (a valuation that would put it 30% above the current valuation of AAPL or MSFT). I’m convinced that selling options can lead to a much higher return than 200% over a period of 4 years.

That certainly seems to be the way things are shaping up. But I’ve only really gotten my sugar together over the last month — I feel like the whole rest of the year was spent learning what not to do… or at least, what doesn’t work as well. Now I’m wondering for how many months I’d have to continue to pull this off successfully before I’d really have confidence I could do it for years going forward? At a minimum, the rest of this year, and also including some kind of $100+ pull back that lasts longer than Evergrande.

I also feel like I’m using too much of my available margin to be a long-term strategy. I’m comfortable with it for now, but I’m also monitoring things very closely. If I was going to do this for four years, I’d rather be able to set some alerts and standing orders and feel comfortable ignoring the ticker for a whole day, and I’d rather feel like a total loss could be taken in stride if it came to it. So maybe 1/4 available margin? If that got wiped out it would suck, but if the plan is otherwise working I could restart with 1/2-1/3 of what’s left with more focused attention again for a while and it would be more like a setback of N months than a financial catastrophe.

Though, the higher the stock goes, the larger my margin gets, and the smaller the fraction of it that I need to use to meet my weekly goal, which also helps!
 
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that sounds very interesting, would you be able to provide some more detail? Is the idea that you are willing to go more ITM on 90% of the CCs for the sake of getting out of 10%? As you progress through, assuming the SP doesn't change, are you digging a deeper hole? Or does it all work out in the end somehow?
Yes. The thoughts behind it are that early exercise of the call options (by the holder/buyer) is rare as long as there is time value left. So if you're in the money by two percent or twenty percent, it makes no difference.

Therefore, you gain credit by rolling all sold cc's but one out to a position deeper ITM. The credit you get from this is used to roll the last sold cc out in time and up in strike. You could be able to pick a strike that wont be reached and therefore the option expires worthless. If so, rinse and repeat for the other cc's.

If the stock keeps running away from you you are still in the hole of course. There are no sure fire methods.
 
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That certainly seems to be the way things are shaping up. But I’ve only really gotten my sugar together over the last month — I feel like the whole rest of the year was spent learning what not to do… or at least, what doesn’t work as well. Now I’m wondering for how many months I’d have to continue to pull this off successfully before I’d really have confidence I could do it for years going forward? At a minimum, the rest of this year, and also including some kind of $100+ pull back that lasts longer than Evergrande.

I also feel like I’m using too much of my available margin to be a long-term strategy. I’m comfortable with it for now, but I’m also monitoring things very closely. If I was going to do this for four years, I’d rather be able to set some alerts and standing orders and feel comfortable ignoring the ticker for a whole day, and I’d rather feel like a total loss could be taken in stride if it came to it. So maybe 1/4 available margin? If that got wiped out it would suck, but if the plan is otherwise working I could restart with 1/2-1/3 of what’s left with more focused attention again for a while and it would be more like a setback of N months than a financial catastrophe.

Though, the higher the stock goes, the larger my margin gets, and the smaller the fraction of it that I need to use to meet my weekly goal, which also helps!
I don't know the answers but I think these are exactly the right questions to be asking and seeking your answers to. These are the questions that transition this activity into something you can depend on.

And probably the first bit of that is to see consistently good enough results over enough time and through enough different market conditions that you can trust them. The way I optimize things, the sort of outcome you're seeking are also what I'm looking for.


I figure that one thing you can do with far OTM positions - if they're far enough you can set a stock price alert, knowing that you'll get a text if something in the vicinity of one of your positions gets reached. I was thinking a 950 alert for my 900 strike puts for instance.

Hopefully the overall dynamic from your learning has been that you've been paid to learn what you've learned, even if it wasn't much. It's always more fun to be earning than spending for the education.
 
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The coke supply runs strong and deep! You can always use your health insurance to cover the cost of Adderal, painkillers, benzos, etc.

I am there with you around 1400 being a possible sell-off point. I personally haven't decided on when I would sell and am just sitting on my hands.

But I remember all the analysts ( even Gary Black) in 2019/2020, raising their prices as TSLA increased. So I see analyst ratings as reactive instead of predictive. I remember pre-split, TSLA in 2019/2020, Piper Sandler analyst appeared on Tesla Daily being the bold analyst to suggest TSLA at 420-ish. It then broke through to about 1,000. Gary Black himself would tweet, retweet, and adjust his calculations and price targets to match TSLA's rise over the next few quarters. I may mistake a few numbers and names as I'm going off memory. Of course, I know I may be wrong, as past performance is not indicative of what may occur. I just like to pick my information to confirm my bias just like the next bloke.
It’s very hard to know how a stock will behave during violent upswing… Gary seems to think that PMs start trimming positions at 1200. But that doesn’t mean they’d sell all of their position. Still, it should create some resistance unless Leo keeps buying.
 
Also NOT-ADVICE but strongly related to another topic on my mind.

Portfolio management, and in particular my own plan...

NOT-ADVICE. And maybe even an outright bad idea :)


I've been thinking more about this portfolio management idea, and I think I'm honing in on something more precise, more formulaic, and that I like.

It amounts to using 1/2 of the cash / value that I devote to creating an income and holding that as cash (for selling puts / put spreads), and holding the other half as deep ITM calls (for the delta, and to sell covered calls). I don't make adjustments to these two pools on a weekly basis, but I do make changes as needed so I'm in the vicinity of 50/50.


I use the cash to back put spreads and because it's 1/2 of the total pool I can use roughly all of it (very far / low risk positions). If I get a full loss situation then I would sell enough of the deep ITM calls so I'm back to 50/50, and go on like nothing happened (well - hopefully I learned something from being stubborn and eating a 100% loss :D).

Meanwhile I'd use the deep ITM calls as the backing to sell leap covered calls. Knowing full well that these will occasionally get assigned (sold) for the calls. I am intentionally staying away from call credit spreads - plenty of people burned this last week by those; 1 of my 3 biggest mistakes, and the most traumatic, was the 40-70% losses I ate on some call credit spreads back in June. Part of the dynamic I don't like about the call spreads is that they can't be resolved by taking assignment using the shares or DITM backing calls - they can only be resolved in cash and that can be an actual loss, rather than an opportunity cost loss.

I think that I solve my call credit spread problem by not selling them in the first place, and instead owning leaps that I use to back covered calls.

As the income / realized profits accumulate I will naturally end up with a steadily increasing pile of calls AND a slowly growing pile of cash to write an increasing number of put spreads. This approach keeps me from intentionally or not, doing 100% compounding on the put spreads. 100% compounding looks great on a spreadsheet, but the spreadsheets never have a 100% loss on them, and full compounding means that the first 100% loss is also the last loss (wipe out the account).


Over time when the shares are going up, I'll take assignment on some (or even all!) of those covered calls as a means of transferring value from shares to cash and staying close to that 50/50 relationship. If I got into a position where I took assignment on them all, that's ok too - I'd immediately pick my new deep ITM call and buy enough to be back to 50/50.

If the shares are going down then the cash is reasonably constant while the shares (calls) are losing value. I would periodically use some of that cash to add calls to the pile and bring the calls side of the pool back to 50/50.


The overall dynamic I'm aiming for is more complete use of the resources, while also having resilience to a full loss. I think I'll get some degree of buy low / sell high from the flow of money in and out of the deep ITM calls and that's a nice bonus. Choosing those DITM calls will be its own chore - I find myself waffling minutely between really far / really long calls (like Jan 2024 400s) and much closer - time and strike - calls. For the larger purpose I'm probably better off with the longest dated calls. Or at least longer dated calls.


Maybe I go with thirds - 1/3rd cash, 1/3rd calls, and 1/3rd cash that just sits there :). The idea and the approach doesn't change.
What kind of account do you do the put spreads in, just an ordinary taxable investment account? My broker (Stephens) is resisting allowing me to do anything besides covered calls in my Roth which is the bulk of my investment capital, and obviously has all the tax advantages to offset the reduced flexibility.
 
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Is that a broker thing, where your broker doesn't support that at all? I know that BPS are available at Fidelity (they're my broker), and my research says they're available at tastyworks. Pretty sure that Schwab and IB customers here in the thread are doing spreads in their retirement accounts as well.

So if your broker just doesn't support them at all, maybe its time to think about a different broker :)

With Fidelity at least, and this might be true for you as well, the Spread Trading in the IRA was an additional options level (they call it Options Level 2 + Spread Trading). So I had to apply for it as an additional feature.
Even Fidelity does not allow spread trading in certain retirement accounts such as the Solo 401k in which I have a number if ITM ccs. 😔
 
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8r
It’s very hard to know how a stock will behave during violent upswing… Gary seems to think that PMs start trimming positions at 1200. But that doesn’t mean they’d sell all of their position. Still, it should create some resistance unless Leo keeps buying.
from Leo twitter , seem to recall he wants to get to 12,000,000 shares tho
cheers

“"……..Tesla bulls, I bought additional 194,500 physical shares in the last two weeks. Now I have actual 6,697,411 physical shares of Tesla. Hopefully, I will have 7.3 million by January 2022 and 8 million physical shares of Tesla in December 2022. I commit therefore I am….”
 
If you can get spread options trading permission (for E*Trade it's Options Level 3), then you can sell put spreads "like everyone else" here. For instance, with just under $10K, you can sell 2x $50 spreads or 1x $100 spread. However, if the stock price turns against you, you could lose the whole starting sum. So presumably, you'd want to pick low-risk trades.

Once you can sell enough spreads to accomulate an extra $5K in profits, if you're not taking the income out then you can sell one additional $50 spread the following week to increase your total income. Though, per the recent brief discussion, if you continue to use all your money to back spreads, you continue to put it all at risk each week, and you'll have all the more reason to seek low-risk trades.

You can go for Iron Condors or the like instead of plain put spreads for somewhat more profit, though as we just saw with this week's ~$100 movements in a day, there's risk of total loss on one side or the other, or even on both if not handled well.

Perhaps the place to start is to establish how much income you need from the initial investment. If you set a modest goal, you can choose pretty safe spreads. For instance, looking for $500 weekly income per $5000 backing will be pants-on-fire risky compared to looking for $100/wk per $5000 backing. Picking some high figure is not necessarily undoable, but will likely require a lot more attention and involve a lot more heartburn to avoid losses that eat up your gains.
I wish (and assuming I haven’t missed it) there was a ‘posts of merit’, or ‘posts for absolute noobs’ relating to this thread. This post and several above it on this page would be my choices.

I‘m desperate to dip a toe in the water, ‘cause I’m keen to retire and could use some income. The difficulty (exacerbated by being in the UK, I think) is that first step, learning the platform, understanding the real-world effects of market dynamics etc etc. These posts and some YouTubery (“In the money” is one I can recommend. Option Alpha is great, but ITM is great at pointing out the key details to consider ).

I will get there soon, just need to follow this thread for the next couple of weeks until the SP settles down a bit (LOl?).

Good luck to all, you deserve it, and rest assured you are providing a great service to your fellow Tesla/TSLA chums.
 
It does make sense to keep making a few hundred dollars a week and waiting, right? What is the downside? Am I leaving money on the table in other ways?

It’s the opportunity cost. I've been wondering: At what point is it not worth rolling DITM CC and better to start selling BPS or naked puts with that money? In a taxable account with large gains, it probably wouldn't make sense. But assuming no tax considerations, it would seem to me to be worth it to roll if:

The CC roll nets you more, in strike and/or credit, than the credit you would get for selling a same expiration naked put with the capital tied up (share price x 100 - covered call). If not, sell 100 shares, close the call and sell the naked put.

If the share price continues going up, you lose your shares anyway. At least you make slightly more progress toward catching the SP with increasing your OTM put strike each time than you would have by rolling the calls. If the SP comes back down, you get exercised at a lower price than you sold or you can buy back your 100 shares back with your collateral, same result as if you kept the covered call: 100 shares. Anything I'm missing here?
 
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I wish (and assuming I haven’t missed it) there was a ‘posts of merit’, or ‘posts for absolute noobs’ relating to this thread. This post and several above it on this page would be my choices.

I‘m desperate to dip a toe in the water, ‘cause I’m keen to retire and could use some income. The difficulty (exacerbated by being in the UK, I think) is that first step, learning the platform, understanding the real-world effects of market dynamics etc etc. These posts and some YouTubery (“In the money” is one I can recommend. Option Alpha is great, but ITM is great at pointing out the key details to consider ).

I will get there soon, just need to follow this thread for the next couple of weeks until the SP settles down a bit (LOl?).

Good luck to all, you deserve it, and rest assured you are providing a great service to your fellow Tesla/TSLA chums.

Thank you for the kind words.

I believe @adiggs has permission to edit the first post, and I think one intent was to link to relevant posts or information there.

However, it may be that rather than linking to currently existing posts, we might want to try to come up with some new ones that are specifically written with the intent to be referenced long-term. We might also want a stronger "not advice" disclaimer on the first post and on linked posts that aren't strictly factual (e.g. showing charts of previous rises/falls)?

@adiggs what do you think? Am I right that you can still update the first post? Is it still your intent to assemble like a "Getting Started" bullet list of helpful posts in addition to the Options Alpha link?
 
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8r

from Leo twitter , seem to recall he wants to get to 12,000,000 shares tho
cheers

“"……..Tesla bulls, I bought additional 194,500 physical shares in the last two weeks. Now I have actual 6,697,411 physical shares of Tesla. Hopefully, I will have 7.3 million by January 2022 and 8 million physical shares of Tesla in December 2022. I commit therefore I am….”
That means he’s tapped out actually, he’s counting on increase in portfolio to keep leveraging up. He may get there but I don’t see him creating the massive gamma he did these past 2 weeks unless he buys all at once in similar fashion?
 
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What kind of account do you do the put spreads in, just an ordinary taxable investment account? My broker (Stephens) is resisting allowing me to do anything besides covered calls in my Roth which is the bulk of my investment capital, and obviously has all the tax advantages to offset the reduced flexibility.
I do put spreads in both a Rollover IRA and a Roth IRA. I've been doing spreads in my taxable brokerage account but may be drifting back to margin backed short puts.

At Fidelity the options authorization is Level 2 + Spreads Trading. The Spreads Trading feature was something I had to apply for on its own (all in one application, but still a second checkbox in the application).
 
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That means he’s tapped out actually, he’s counting on increase in portfolio to keep leveraging up. He may get there but I don’t see him creating the massive gamma he did these past 2 weeks unless he buys all at once in similar fashion?
Great article if you haven’t seen it yet

How a 2,360% Jump in Call Options Fired Up Tesla’s Share Surge
Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
 
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I have never sold CC agains LEAPS. Can you help me understand this? Let's assume I buy 10 Jan 2024 LEAPS for 600 strike at $620. Then I sell Calls for Nov 12, 1200 strike for $24. If the SP is below 1200, I do it again the next week. If the SP goes up to 1300 on the expiration, what happens (assuming I don't roll the calls)? Do I have to call Fidelity and have them exercise my 600 strike Leaps and turn them into shares (by paying $600 per share on top of the $620 I already paid = $1220), that I then "sell" for $1200/each to the call buyer? So if it happens on my first trade, I break even? But if I survive the first trade, I basically start making money until the Calls finally end up in the money and I have to either roll or convert my Leaps to shares and start over?
 
I wish (and assuming I haven’t missed it) there was a ‘posts of merit’, or ‘posts for absolute noobs’ relating to this thread. This post and several above it on this page would be my choices.

I‘m desperate to dip a toe in the water, ‘cause I’m keen to retire and could use some income. The difficulty (exacerbated by being in the UK, I think) is that first step, learning the platform, understanding the real-world effects of market dynamics etc etc. These posts and some YouTubery (“In the money” is one I can recommend. Option Alpha is great, but ITM is great at pointing out the key details to consider ).

I will get there soon, just need to follow this thread for the next couple of weeks until the SP settles down a bit (LOl?).

Good luck to all, you deserve it, and rest assured you are providing a great service to your fellow Tesla/TSLA chums.
It would be a great service to us all if you could add a post to the thread with links to the individual posts you've found valuable, the external sites you've found helpful - that sort of thing. Or if it works better, add several posts with that info.

If you put together the list of links and maybe a 1 liner with each explaining what you've found so helpful, then I'll add that info to our FAQ / Glossary, making them that much more easily found and referred to by others.


And I've been there on the desperate to retire bit. The main comment I have to keep in mind - don't put your education and experience with option selling on a clock. Do the educational bit and then start gaining experience using small positions that are big enough to keep your attention, and small enough that a partial or complete loss won't be a big deal to your portfolio.

I needed most of a year of doing this to have enough confidence that I could use this to be a supplemental or exclusive income source. You may need less, or more - the main thing as I see it is don't put it on a clock. If you have a date by which you need a particular result, or to have a specific level of experience, that sounds like a recipe that leads to more aggressive choices that you may not otherwise be making.


Slow and steady wins this race, and getting started is the big deal.
Welcome!
 
Thank you for the kind words.

I believe @adiggs has permission to edit the first post, and I think one intent was to link to relevant posts or information there.

However, it may be that rather than linking to currently existing posts, we might want to try to come up with some new ones that are specifically written with the intent to be referenced long-term. We might also want a stronger "not advice" disclaimer on the first post and on linked posts that aren't strictly factual (e.g. showing charts of previous rises/falls)?

@adiggs what do you think? Am I right that you can still update the first post? Is it still your intent to assemble like a "Getting Started" bullet list of helpful posts in addition to the Options Alpha link?
Yes - I have permissions to edit both Post #1 of this thread, as well as the FAQ / Glossary thread.

Yes I want to get a collection of posts and other resources linked, to help newcomers speed down the road.


We can go either way on the posts - write something specific to some topic, or just rely on already written stuff. Given the amount of effort involved and stuff, I lean towards using the already written posts. So it sort of becomes a "Best Of" collection, rather than a manual written for the purpose.


I also replied to @15Peter20 but the idea is really something that everybody can do to help build that "Best Of" collection. For everybody and anybody here - if you've got a post, collection of posts, external sites, youtube links, etc.. - anything that has helped with your own education and success selling TSLA options, please post about that. I think that the easiest, fastest, and simplest is a short sentence or two (maybe even a whole paragraph!) that explains what the link / post is about and why you've found it so valuable.

Write that short description about what you've found valuable and don't worry about wordsmithing the post or anything. Part of the charm will be that they each arise from different points in time and contexts.


Maybe add a short blurb "For the FAQ" to the post to help me spot 'em - I'll grab these posts as I see them (or @Chenkers will) and add them to the FAQ. The FAQ might not be really well organized for awhile, but I think getting the info into the FAQ is more important to get started.


And to reiterate - I believe that the newer anybody is to the thread, whether a poster or a lurker, then the greater ability you have to contribute in this way. And ultimately, this thread is all of ours and we make it what we want of it. All of us. I might have kicked things off originally, but what makes the thread valuable is that so many are contributing so much. I know its been valuable to me - the last 4 months have been my best with each one better than the last. Those results wouldn't be possible with all of the ideas and stuff I'm learning from y'all.

I appreciate the assist making retirement a very comfortable endeavor thus far :)
 
I have never sold CC agains LEAPS. Can you help me understand this? Let's assume I buy 10 Jan 2024 LEAPS for 600 strike at $620. Then I sell Calls for Nov 12, 1200 strike for $24. If the SP is below 1200, I do it again the next week. If the SP goes up to 1300 on the expiration, what happens (assuming I don't roll the calls)? Do I have to call Fidelity and have them exercise my 600 strike Leaps and turn them into shares (by paying $600 per share on top of the $620 I already paid = $1220), that I then "sell" for $1200/each to the call buyer? So if it happens on my first trade, I break even? But if I survive the first trade, I basically start making money until the Calls finally end up in the money and I have to either roll or convert my Leaps to shares and start over?

I think that you're in the right ballpark. My own intent on these lcc (leap covered call) is that assignment really means "BTC the short call and STC the long (leap) call". I.e. - I decide when to 'take assignment' and don't allow the ITM short call to actually go to expiration.

If the short call does go to expiration and is ITM, then your broker will sell the shares that you don't have in the account to satisfy the short call assignment. Sometime over the weekend you'll see that you're short TSLA (TSLA position -100 shares). Those will be on your margin and you'll be paying the borrow interest for having sold 100 shares short (per contract). Presumably you will then BTC100 shares (per contract) to close out those short shares and neutralize that position. The LEAP call will NOT be exercised by your broker to satisfy the assignment on the short call.

But the rest of it - the numbers and financial rationale - that all looks right to me.

Oh - if you do have shares (so shares, leaps, short calls), then yes - your broker will helpfully sell enough shares to satisfy the covered call. That is, after all, what you committed to do when you sold the call; deliver 100 shares at the strike on demand or expiration (ITM).


EDIT to add: You should see the leaps and the short dated, sold calls, getting matched up in your account for margin purposes. Other names that I've seen for this:
- we call 'em lcc, or Leap Covered Call. They don't technically need to be leaps - they're really short calls (the cc) being matched up with long calls on a different date. When they're the same date then its a vertical call spread, aka call credit spread.
- More commonly known as a poor man's covered call. link
- They are actually and technically called diagonal spreads. link where the dates are different and the strikes are different
- Which is related to but different from calendar spreads. link where the two options have different dates but the same strike

The lcc that I have open right now are listed by Fidelity as Debit Spreads, and I expect that they always will be (the short calls I'm selling will always carry a smaller premium than the long calls I purchased). They are debit spreads because they are a +600c / -1200c, with that 600c way, way out in time. As a result I paid more to buy the 600c, than I received when I sold the 1200c, and thus a debit spread.

My plan in practice is to keep selling that lcc (the 1200 call) as many times as I can, hopefully week to week, until I get assigned or near expiration of the 600c. In this particular case, with a June 2022 expiration, I only get 6-8 months (max) before I need to find a new strike for the long call.

EDIT 2: added to FAQ
 
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My opinion/guess right now is that while it's true that "this time is different' in the sense that this might be a watershed moment for Tesla in the main stream media and casual investors on the fundamental level (blowout ER, Hertz, etc.), we will still come down and retest the previous high. You look at the last few times a rocket ship happened:
  • 02/2020 - blowout Q3 ER: broke above above the previous level high $80 and went to $194, came back down and retested $70View attachment 727570
  • 07/2020 - blowout Q2 delivery number; broke above the previous level high of $208 and went to $357, came back down and retested $275View attachment 727572
  • 09/2020 - stock split; broke previous level high of $357 and went up to $500, came back down and retested $330View attachment 727573
  • 12/2020 - S&P 500; broke previous high level of $550 and went up to $695 then 900, but still retested $540-560 on 4 occasionsView attachment 727574
I am not saying the Starship is out of fuel on the way to the moon but I think the probability of a consolidation/pull back is more likely than continuing, non-stop blastoff to $1,500. I personally rolled out my CCs in hopes of catching a consolidation. With how high the IV is, a consolidation is likely all you will need to get out of this mess.

It’s very hard to know how a stock will behave during violent upswing… Gary seems to think that PMs start trimming positions at 1200. But that doesn’t mean they’d sell all of their position. Still, it should create some resistance unless Leo keeps buying.

One thing I thought about is how a lot of consolidation happens around January and February. Typically in January and February, there is tax selling. Those that made a lot of money in 2021 often wait until 2022 to cash in so they won't have to pay taxes on their gains until 2023. That likely contributed to the downward movement after the last peak when it got into the S&P-500. With a possible rewriting of how much people are taxed in upcoming legislation, there may be people willing to sell before these tax laws are enacted.

A lot of great news coming from November-December (Austin and Berlin, etc.) and COVID cases/deaths going down in the US. I could see it staying high for a while. That will contribute to market euphoria.

TSLA is such a big deal now that it really moves the NASDAQ-100. You can see how TSLA moves intraday usually show up in QQQ a few minutes later. I sometimes invest in TQQQ along with TSLA so like to watch both tickers.