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Wiki Selling TSLA Options - Be the House

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I've discovered something VERY, VERY, VERY important to know about selling spreads. With a BPS, if it is ITM, and you get a margin call because the stock you are backing the position with losses value, buying back the spread at a loss does NOTHING for your margin. It makes sense, because if full loss is $20k on a 850/1050, you needed $20K of margin when you opened the position, and you need $20k to close it. So nothing changes with your margin when you close a fully ITM position, you are just $20k poorer. If it was half way in the spread, you would close for $10k, and then get a margin improvement of $10k.

So it is definitely "safer" to do BPS with an all cash account because you can't go into a margin call situation. However, if your positions go to full loss, and you were using 90% of your cash to back the positions, you lose 90% of your account for ever. At least if you have shares, you can sell covered calls to generate income to roll positions further out. With a cash account, what you got is what you got.

Personally, I might be done with BPS after this, and go back to regular old naked puts and covered calls.
Thank you for sharing this info! I feel like this needs to be stickied somewhere.

@Flehmenlips shared something similar in an earlier post Wiki - Selling TSLA Options - Be the House

I closed out my 40x 2/18 880/780 bps earlier today at a significant loss, ate up a chunk of my cash. Could've saved $20k if I'd waited another 30 minutes but that's life.

Are we changing the thread name back to The Wheel? 🤣
 
always 5-7 DTE max, too scared to go far

2/11 BPS i will open this Thu/Fri
STO 2/4 BPS -p800/+p700

+18% in 15 minutes even though SP still climbing, never seen this happen before - does anyone know why?

BPS is supposed to lose value if SP is going up

1643645141406.png
 
I wouldn't be so cavalier about it. Once you are flagged as a day trader if you day trade more than your allowable day trade amount you will get a really nasty margin call, and my understanding is the only way to meet it is to add new capital/stocks. (It won't go away because of increased value of holdings in the account.)

In my experience it is only for that day. You have to bring you account value back above 25k.

So if I currently have 5 day trades and my account drops below 25k today. I need to deposit money to bring it back up to 25k. If tomorrow all 5 of those day trades have hit their 5 day and clear, I’m good and don’t need to deposit money.
 
STO 2/4 BPS -p800/+p700

+18% in 15 minutes even though SP still climbing, never seen this happen before - does anyone know why?

BPS is supposed to lose value if SP is going up

View attachment 762546
IV is going up - and also because you said you were waiting till Thursday so the market wanted to punish you..... :p
 
STO 2/4 BPS -p800/+p700

+18% in 15 minutes even though SP still climbing, never seen this happen before - does anyone know why?

BPS is supposed to lose value if SP is going up

View attachment 762546

I'm not sure I understand. BPS will lose value if SP goes up. 18% is your unrealized P/L so makes sense right? What am I missing?

Or are you referring to the value of 800 PUT going up?
 
I've discovered something VERY, VERY, VERY important to know about selling spreads. With a BPS, if it is ITM, and you get a margin call because the stock you are backing the position with losses value, buying back the spread at a loss does NOTHING for your margin. It makes sense, because if full loss is $20k on a 850/1050, you needed $20K of margin when you opened the position, and you need $20k to close it. So nothing changes with your margin when you close a fully ITM position, you are just $20k poorer. If it was half way in the spread, you would close for $10k, and then get a margin improvement of $10k.

So it is definitely "safer" to do BPS with an all cash account because you can't go into a margin call situation. However, if your positions go to full loss, and you were using 90% of your cash to back the positions, you lose 90% of your account for ever. At least if you have shares, you can sell covered calls to generate income to roll positions further out. With a cash account, what you got is what you got.

Personally, I might be done with BPS after this, and go back to regular old naked puts and covered calls.

I am thinking the same. My income needs are small and I don't see a need to add extra risk, stress and trash my account. Right now I am in wait mode and once I clear all my outstanding BPS I will sell puts. Is kind of nice not to have anything open for this week.
 
In my experience it is only for that day. You have to bring you account value back above 25k.

So if I currently have 5 day trades and my account drops below 25k today. I need to deposit money to bring it back up to 25k. If tomorrow all 5 of those day trades have hit their 5 day and clear, I’m good and don’t need to deposit money.
This kind of margin call has nothing to do with your account balance. You are allocated $x a day to day trade. If you day trade $x+1 dollars you get a margin call for $1, and the only way to resolve it is to add money to the account. (It doesn't matter if all of your day trades were closed out for a profit.)

At least that is my understanding of the "day trading purchasing power" and related margin call. (And it is very easy to burn through your allocation when rolling BPSs.)

Learn about day trading margin calls

Under FINRA Rule 4210, in the event that you exceed your day trading purchasing power, we're required to issue a day trading margin call.

If you receive a day trading margin call, you'll have as long as four business days to deposit funds to meet the call. Please be aware that the only way to satisfy a day trading call is to deposit additional funds.

The day after you trigger a day trading margin call, your account will be restricted to day trading purchasing power of two times maintenance margin excess, based on your daily total trading commitment. This restriction will remain in effect for four business days or until the call is met, whichever is earlier. If the day trading margin call is not met by the fourth business day, your account will be further restricted to trading only on a cash-available basis for 90 days or until the call is met.
 
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Few moves this morning:

Bought 100 shares this morning at 872 on open

Once we crested 895 and it looked like we were going to continue going north, I rolled my 2/18 1225 puts to 2/25 at 980 with 3x additional contracts. The roll was getting more costly every dollar we went up. If this works out, this whole fiasco will have cost me 3 weeks of selling puts. Fingers crossed we just go up from here and I can close them out early.
 
This kind of margin call has nothing to do with your account balance. You are allocated $x to day trade per day. If you day trade $x+1 dollars you get a margin call for $1, and the only way to resolve it is to add money to the account. (It doesn't matter if all of your day trades were closed out for a profit.)

At least that is my understanding of the "day trading power" and related margin call. (And it is very easy to burn through your allocation when rolling BPSs.)
Not sure what you mean by "If you day trade $x+1 dollars", as it's not cumulative for the day.
If cash is 50k and day trade buying power is 200k then you can buy 160k, sell it, then buy another 160k and sell it in the same day. What you can't do is buy 201k of stuff. Page 6 of the pdf I linked above. Plus, it has the different margin call types.
 
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This kind of margin call has nothing to do with your account balance. You are allocated $x a day to day trade. If you day trade $x+1 dollars you get a margin call for $1, and the only way to resolve it is to add money to the account. (It doesn't matter if all of your day trades were closed out for a profit.)

At least that is my understanding of the "day trading purchasing power" and related margin call. (And it is very easy to burn through your allocation when rolling BPSs.)

It has everything to do with your account balance. I used to do day trading quite a bit and am familiar with the rules. See link below.

 
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BTC several spreads near 80% for this week , got to free 90k of margin, yay ! I can roll out the two remaining 2/4 BPS with 950 and 960 short legs to 2/11 at slight credit, same number of contracts or narrower some to free more margin for small debit. Considering reeling in rolls that went to April with the same goal of freeing margin by reducing contracts, widening where possible.
 
Not sure what you mean by "If you day trade $x+1 dollars", as it's not cumulative for the day.
If cash is 50k and day trade buying power is 200k then you can buy 160k, sell it, then buy another 160k and sell it in the same day. What you can't do is buy 201k of stuff. Page 6 of the pdf I linked above. Plus, it has the different margin call types.
That isn't how E*TRADE explains it:

Avoid a day trading margin call by liquidating all my positions by the end of the day

If you exceed your day trading purchasing power, you will be subject to a day trading margin call, even if you have liquidated all of your positions by the end of the day.

I know my day trading power has reached $0 even though I closed out positions...
 
That isn't how E*TRADE explains it:



I know my day trading power has reached $0 even though I closed out positions...
Yeah, I messed on the covering of the call, looks like you need to add funds even after the the sell. However, I'm still of the view that it's max position, not cumluative.
There may also be a situation where your regular buying power is higher than your day trading power which could get you into trouble.
SmartSelect_20220131-114853_Adobe Acrobat.jpg
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The root of the correction here is a rotation out of tech sector due to the adjusted discount rate from future raising rates and P/E ratio readjustments due to these rise. Is it a more global problem from people at risk to lose their jobs, their homes and default on their payments from a more complex consequence of inflation significantly reducing buying power in the next years. What is the projection of the extent of the impact of raising rates and inflation on possible payment defaulting and subsequent big banks defaulting?
(NOTE: I wrote this over the weekend and forgot to hit "Post Reply". So somewhat dated, but I think still applicable.


This is the multi-million $$ question (whether C$ or US$ :D).

With all the reporting about a sector rotation I have little doubt that there IS a sector rotation. I imagine it even explains part of what is going on.

What I'm thinking about (fear is probably a bit strong) is that we've had 2 years of the Federal Reserve buying $120B worth of bonds every month. With such a strong buying presence this has been propping up prices in the bond market and injecting a huge amount of incremental cash / liquidity into the overall market. Something like $2.5T (24 months, $120B each month). That money has sloshed around and, as I understand it, mostly stayed in the market - it hasn't gone into people's pockets except for those that are actively invested in the markets.

There have also been multi-trillion $ stimulus in the form of payments (expanded and extended unemployment has been a big one, but not the only) to help individuals and businesses weather this storm. The stimulus payments won't be getting paid back but they do add to the massive amount of money that has been added to the economy to help the economy and households do so well through this period.

As an aside - I do subscribe to Modern Monetary Theory, but I also see it being badly misinterpreted. In some cases I think intentionally as the easy (and wrong) interpretation is that the US Federal Government, as the issuer of its own currency, is able to issue as much currency as it chooses, and thus it can never run out of money or go bankrupt. While this is true it also skips over the bit that is critical - subject to the inflation constraint. The fact that inflation has stayed so low through all of this stimulus and before tells me that we didn't have enough money in the system, but that's a conversation for another time.


The tapering on the bond buying means that the Federal Reserve has begun slowing the rate at which new money is being created (through buying bonds). The upcoming increase in interest rates will start raising the price of money (borrowing rate) making bonds more desirable to purchase (they pay more interest than previously). Between less money being added, and more money going into bonds, the remaining money to use to bid up stock prices will have a bit of a crimp in it.

Then some are interpreting the taper to mean the Fed is going to start removing that ~$2.5T worth of bonds from the market by selling them off to private buyers. I haven't seen the Fed see that - only reports that I believe don't really understand. Or maybe its me that doesn't really understand . My expectation is that the Fed won't sell a single one of those bonds. Instead they will be held until the naturally roll off (expire) and won't be replaced. That will still be an effective sale but it won't show up on a ticker anywhere - it'll show up as companies having a more difficult time rolling over that borrowed money and being dependent on the private markets showing up with new money to be borrowed. And that will stretch the process over years while also making it mostly invisible to individual traders (much less the journalists that cover the markets).


The more immediate, identifiable, and easily explained dynamic in this is a PE adjustment. I don't see a global risk of people losing their homes the way we had in 08. I do see people losing homes and apartments due to being unable to pay bills. And small landlords unable to make their own mortgage payments due to inability to collect rent from people that can't afford it. This is part of the larger dynamic I am referring to when I say the real economy vs. the stock market. Restaurants that have reopened but are fine with 1 server per shift instead of 2 - stuff like that.