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Wiki Selling TSLA Options - Be the House

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I want to run something past the collective brain trust…. I can generate $122/contract by rolling my Jan 2024 2000 strike CCs down and out to June 24 1000 strike. If the SP recovers in a month to 900, and I want to buy them back and roll to June 2024 2000, will I gain or lose money (will the gap be larger than the original $122 I would be pocketing)?

Asking another way - will the premium gap between June 2024 1000 and 2000 strike calls increase or decrease if the SP goes from 660 to 900?

Based on the dollar change in premiums from todays drop, I think it will cost me more….
I'd avoid rolling the calls down to $1000 with 2yrs time value, but perhaps I'm more bullish than others. Two years worth of 50% growth can do a lot for the stock price, not to mention the split that we're expecting. The market is forward looking, so in my opinion, we've priced in a lot of the recessionary expectations tied to Russia/Ukraine, inflation, and supply chain shortages. Resolving any one of these three will leg the market upward. If we get clarity on all three in the next 12 months I think we're meaningfully higher. Maybe not Fed printing money higher, but for companies actually performing (TSLA, GOOGL, etc) they certainly shouldn't be held back.
 
So now I'm selling weekly BPS and using the proceeds to buy things like June 2024 $1500/$1600 call spreads. Grabbed some for $9 today, and could've gotten them for $8 at the lows. That's $900 for a nearly guaranteed $10k two years from now IMO.

Not advice.

Obviously, being a noob, all your attention is focused on your current trades and barely any thought to our accumulated profit(hopefully). At best, you think of it as more cash to write more options or buy shares with. These further down the line plays are interesting and I need to start learning about them.
 
Obviously, being a noob, all your attention is focused on your current trades and barely any thought to our accumulated profit(hopefully). At best, you think of it as more cash to write more options or buy shares with. These further down the line plays are interesting and I need to start learning about them.
I've known TSLA was a lock since forever and I think I'm maaaaaybe a hair above even at the moment buying calls to try and time upswings.

I have some call spreads I'm sitting on which are in essence "wins", but nailing these runups short term is nearly impossible and even medium term is iffy. Best to just gain leverage with ITM LEAPs as needed.

All that being said.........I think these Nov calls are gonna 10x at least! 😜
 
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I'd avoid rolling the calls down to $1000 with 2yrs time value, but perhaps I'm more bullish than others. Two years worth of 50% growth can do a lot for the stock price, not to mention the split that we're expecting. The market is forward looking, so in my opinion, we've priced in a lot of the recessionary expectations tied to Russia/Ukraine, inflation, and supply chain shortages. Resolving any one of these three will leg the market upward. If we get clarity on all three in the next 12 months I think we're meaningfully higher. Maybe not Fed printing money higher, but for companies actually performing (TSLA, GOOGL, etc) they certainly shouldn't be held back.
Believe me, the last thing I want to do is sell $1000 CC two years out. I’m just desperate to generate cash so I don’t get A margin call and sell all my shares at 580…. I can‘t sell puts/spreads. It’s either sell shares, buy back spreads and take a huge margin loan, or sell CCs.
 
not-advice (I have a lot of that recently :D)

Something I've thought about recently and then forgot about as I went back to BPS, is that cash secured puts provide their own kind of leverage should one be willing to use it. The beautiful thing about csp is that they can be rolled 'forever'. Where 'forever' at some point probably means taking delivery on shares.

But in the meantime one can be really aggressive with them, especially at such low share prices.

As an example lets pretend that I have $300k to sell csp with using the option chain as it is right now. Lets pretend I really have 325k so I can sell 5x650 strike puts. Why would I do that?

That strike is at 25.10 right now for this Friday expiration. If I go into this position assuming I will need to roll for 3 more weeks before hits resolves at 2/3rds, and that the 3 weeks effectively contribute no credits, then I earn $17 when I close for $8. $17 over 4 weeks earnings hits my target of $4 per contract. If I get an immediate move in my favor I might be able to close the next day for $17 and immediately earn $8 against my $4 standard. Or hold a bit longer and if the shares are flat (share price 660 when I open the 650).

I only get -this- aggressive when the share price is so low. The 'worst' case is that the share plummet to $400 leaving me very far ITM, and I buy 500 shares for $325k. As long as I can sell cc against those 500 shares, and only take delivery when I roll back to $650+ then I'll earn strike to strike earnings as well as the credits along the way.

The key to this is using cash secured puts (not margin) or put spreads, and being ready to roll aggressively and early, as well as ready to roll for multiple weeks when necessary. This level of aggression isn't possible with put spreads, and represents a form of leverage.


Sadly I have put spreads open right now so I don't get to open any of these on Monday :) But when the current put spreads resolve I'm returning to csp, even though the quantity I can sell is low - that small number of more aggressive csp will be similar to or better earnings than the 2x put spreads I've been selling.

The other bit of this is the put aggression varies with the share price, just as the call strike aggression varies with the share price. If shares were 1100 I won't be selling 1100 strike puts. Maybe only 950s at that point - but then some of the cc strikes will get really aggressive.
 
I am starting to monitor LEAP prices as well at these levels, but am curious, what type of returns are you targeting for shares converted to LEAPs? Understand this is pure guess work at this point, but wondering what others have seen in the past using this strategy.
not-advice

I'm running things differently, but I also have an income focus rather than a capital appreciation focus. I don't have a return target - just looking for a strike to strike improvement and a bunch of cc credits along the way while awaiting the share price move that gets me that strike to strike improvement.

My purpose in buying leaps is for them to act as share replacements. A bit of leverage on the share price change side, and 2x the cc I can sell.

My larger pattern is to be adding leaps (or shares) when we're below what I peg as the midpoint of the trading range (about 950 right now) and be selling some of these as we go above that midpoint. In my case that meant buying some leaps in the low 900s share price, and some more around the mid 800s share price. That used up most of my cash - if we see low 600s again then I'll be adding even more leaps and be tapped out.

At a higher share price, above that midpoint, I'll get really aggressive with some of the call strikes covering leaps that I want to sell anyway. I'm using the %cash in the account to make my decisions and would like cash to be around 30-50%. Next purchase of leaps might push me down to 10% cash, so I'll be selling off leaps as we get back above my midpoint to bring cash back to that 40% ish range.

The larger picture - I'd like to be 50% cash (maybe 40%) the next time we reach ATH, and only have 50% exposure to the upside from there. Not because I'm trying to avoid those additional gains - this is the cost to me for the benefit of regular income.

Buying at a relatively low point - I won't be holding these to expiration. Some fraction (20%?) will get sold around 950 or 1000 share price. Another 20% around 1100? That should set me up at about 40-45% cash the next time we reach an ATH - the real cash level that I'm looking to maintain.

If the shares regress from the ATH then I've completed a cycle (wheel!?!) of buying some of the position low, and selling that fraction of my position high. As we break into ATH territory I'll be missing out on some of the gains, but will still be seeing 1/2 of them. And I'll have a lot of cash on hand pretty much all the time, damping out swings + and -, while generating something resembling income on a monthly basis.


I haven't yet sold shares to convert into leaps, though I've begun thinking about it. So far these mid / upper 600s share price haven't been tempting enough. Low 600s though ... I'm keeping an eye on this choice.


For me - share replacement options are always max DTE options. I've played with shorter duration calls and regretted that; won't do that again. I also go DITM. For choosing my initial June '24 position, shares were low 900s at the time, I was able to get 7 leaps for the price of 400 shares at the time. These were 500 strike.

I've continued buying that strike as I add more and the shares go down.

Were I buying calls today with no other positions for that expiration, I would be looking at something more like 350 to 450. The focus here is on calls that provide a little bit of leverage and behave a lot like shares as the share price goes up and down (for me). Not speculative calls where I'm looking for 2x, 10x, or something. I'm really looking to earn $100 or 200 on strike to strike improvement plus sell cc along the way for income.

BTW - when I opened my original June '24 500 strike position, those calls were about .90 delta. That's what I'll be looking for when the Jan '25 option chain opens up (or that 7:4 ratio). I found 3:2 to be too conservative, and 4:2 to be much too aggressive / close to the money.
 
I don’t share that belief.
Tesla the company is great and we are due a bear rally or two but this economy and market is weak.
The economy is teetering on the abyss of Recession.We are probably in one already. Iinflation unseen for 40+ years.
we can go lower.
there also seems to be a real effort from powerful forces trying to punish Tesla and Elon Musk
that is only going to get worse.
In the long run buying stock down here I believe would pay off.
Trading options in this current market with a bullish sentiment frankly would be folly IMO
I would only qualify that for DITM leaps, if TSLA falls even more., it would not be pure folly. While somewhat risky, it is hard to see TSLA not being twice as high in 2024 unless everything we believe here is simply 100% wrong.
 
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After HODL’ing since 2013, I started trading options in 2021. From that I’ve learned you can make a small fortune in the market… just start with a large fortune and trade options.

Yes. Hopefully everyone starts very small before coming to that realization.

Professional options trading went through a tear down 20+ years ago creating lots of unemployed options traders looking for their next gig. The next 10 years or so brought out option trading scammers selling software platforms and trading gimmicks for thousands of dollars. Today it's more a bit more on the up-and-up but they still try to suck-in the unsuspecting with the ease of being an options trader, having an income machine, and using sure-fire euphemisms like roll for extra premium, volatility is overstated and be the insurance company. I've been trading options for over 20 years and I would tell anyone the best bet is to only use it sparingly or as a hedge.
 
Believe me, the last thing I want to do is sell $1000 CC two years out. I’m just desperate to generate cash so I don’t get A margin call and sell all my shares at 580…. I can‘t sell puts/spreads. It’s either sell shares, buy back spreads and take a huge margin loan, or sell CCs.
I sold about ten percent of my shares at 710 and closed out some P- at a loss nine days ago. Saw the margin call coming and wanted to get out ahead. Really thought I was being conservative but misunderstood some of IBKs numbers (hint “buying power” is a load of bull). Should have paid closer attention. There might be some taxes to consider, but, come on now, took huge losses on my GOOG bet and I will worry about that in December. Of course the next day ( last Friday ) market exploded up but whatever, I protected to the downside and now of course TSLA is even lower. Have begun to accumulate LEAPs to replace my shares and then some. Going slowly.

Am not even considering CCs. Just think the returns suck. Waiting for at least a 100 point one day spike to consider. Have to admit, every single CC I did sell earlier this year was 100% profit….sigh.

And we can't slowly ratchet up from here all summer, it'll be way too easy for retail to eat up all the premiums selling BPS. Either the entire market(and actual economy) must implode, or we move back to a 150+ PE that's still not even really appropriate. In July that equates to $1,405. Should the shorts hold us down through 2Q somehow, that 150 PE becomes $1,700+ in October.
Mule, please dissuade yourself of this idea of a 150 PE. Not going to happen unless the Fed reverses course, cuts interest rates and stops QT and even then would take a while for exuberance to kick in. We are not going back to a 150 PE. The ‘conservative’ market guys who everyone is running to in panic now for advice, those who invest based on ‘ESG‘, the bears and all the Momo traders will argue that a 50 PE at this point is too generous because interest rates and recession and no one will buy cars and TSLA finances will go down like the rest of the market. Secular trends where legacy OEMs are eviscerated are not allowed to be acknowledged in any market, but especially not in a bear market.

The most frustrating aspect of all the macros for TSLA is the zero COVID and the Shanghai shutdowns. I think this has hurt more than anything. If Shanghai we’re cranking now at 80k / month and we had another slam dunk all time record for 2Q, I think the SP would have had great staying power in the 900 to 1000 range.

This too shall pass….

Question for the group: I know we have all felt pain and that this is a great buy here, but what is the SP that would realistically tempt you to tap emergency funds and mortgage out properties to buy more TSLA. (No, not really but you get the idea. Tempted to use funds that are absolutely not meant for the market).

I am thinking at 400, which I don’t believe is realistic, but eh talking about emergency funds and Armageddon cash reserves (BTW, they don’t do well come Armageddon😂).

What do you guys think? Thanks.
 
I sold about ten percent of my shares at 710 and closed out some P- at a loss nine days ago. Saw the margin call coming and wanted to get out ahead. Really thought I was being conservative but misunderstood some of IBKs numbers (hint “buying power” is a load of bull). Should have paid closer attention. There might be some taxes to consider, but, come on now, took huge losses on my GOOG bet and I will worry about that in December. Of course the next day ( last Friday ) market exploded up but whatever, I protected to the downside and now of course TSLA is even lower. Have begun to accumulate LEAPs to replace my shares and then some. Going slowly.

Am not even considering CCs. Just think the returns suck. Waiting for at least a 100 point one day spike to consider. Have to admit, every single CC I did sell earlier this year was 100% profit….sigh.


Mule, please dissuade yourself of this idea of a 150 PE. Not going to happen unless the Fed reverses course, cuts interest rates and stops QT and even then would take a while for exuberance to kick in. We are not going back to a 150 PE. The ‘conservative’ market guys who everyone is running to in panic now for advice, those who invest based on ‘ESG‘, the bears and all the Momo traders will argue that a 50 PE at this point is too generous because interest rates and recession and no one will buy cars and TSLA finances will go down like the rest of the market. Secular trends where legacy OEMs are eviscerated are not allowed to be acknowledged in any market, but especially not in a bear market.

The most frustrating aspect of all the macros for TSLA is the zero COVID and the Shanghai shutdowns. I think this has hurt more than anything. If Shanghai we’re cranking now at 80k / month and we had another slam dunk all time record for 2Q, I think the SP would have had great staying power in the 900 to 1000 range.

This too shall pass….

Question for the group: I know we have all felt pain and that this is a great buy here, but what is the SP that would realistically tempt you to tap emergency funds and mortgage out properties to buy more TSLA. (No, not really but you get the idea. Tempted to use funds that are absolutely not meant for the market).

I am thinking at 400, which I don’t believe is realistic, but eh talking about emergency funds and Armageddon cash reserves (BTW, they don’t do well come Armageddon😂).

What do you guys think? Thanks.

Personally - if the sp went under $400 for obviously nonsensical reasons I’d consider tapping emergency reserves.

Example- 20 million shares dumped in five minutes, crashing the sp to negative infinity, followed by Elon tweeting “oops, that was supposed to be a buy!”

It kinda depends on why the share price is so low
 
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@adiggs - yes, I see CSP's at these price levels as an incredible gift, as I mentioned above, we're at prices where I'd be OK to buy the shares, in fact I have a preference for shares over LEAPS right now, because I don't have a great belief that the markets will take off in the next two years, so I'd be looking for long-term and selling covered calls non-stop and risk-free, i.e. above the piece I bought the shares at. So yes, I have some -p600's I sold Friday, but really I'm after $500, so will roll these down if necessary

I have other short puts - AAPL (June -p150's) and GOOGL (weekly -p2300's) - but I'm not stressed, shares at these prices would be a good long asset, IMO

Could $TSLA go below $500? Perhaps, the market is very irrational and emotional right now, plus lots of politicians and vested interests would like to see Tesla destroyed, Elon does his best at times to help the process, and we have event like the GF3 shutdown to ice the bad-news cake - seems to be a black cygnet along every month since the ATH last November

However, would be a concerted bear/shorty attack that pushes it down, same as we saw on Friday - that was not normal trading, IMO, and these situations need to be covered at some point, unlike organic selling

Curiously I do find myself with zero short calls in any stock, just short puts, so a big fat pop on Monday would be very welcome, in fact I'll re-iterate again that we're yet to see a bear-market rally, just hasn't happened yet, which is highly unusual, I'm not sure what comes after "oversold", but we're way past that across the board

Not an advice...
 
Believe me, the last thing I want to do is sell $1000 CC two years out. I’m just desperate to generate cash so I don’t get A margin call and sell all my shares at 580…. I can‘t sell puts/spreads. It’s either sell shares, buy back spreads and take a huge margin loan, or sell CCs.
another not-advise:

Why not sell CC and buy PUT for the same money you get from the CC, i.e. create Risk Reversal combo?
In my experience that has a much stronger margin enlarging effect than just the cash from the CC.
Typically, you can get a PUT at same expiry date as your CC a bit below SP-Delta strike price, if your CC is at SP+Delta strike.
Difference from SP gets wider on PUT side if you go for later expiry dates, so I prefer to go out only a few weeks,
then create new ones when close to expiry. If the SP goes down in the meantime, you have the opportunity to close down the combo
with good profit too.
 
Question for the group: I know we have all felt pain and that this is a great buy here, but what is the SP that would realistically tempt you to tap emergency funds and mortgage out properties to buy more TSLA. (No, not really but you get the idea. Tempted to use funds that are absolutely not meant for the market).

I am thinking at 400, which I don’t believe is realistic, but eh talking about emergency funds and Armageddon cash reserves (BTW, they don’t do well come Armageddon😂).

What do you guys think? Thanks.
Hard to believe we are at $633 as I type this, but I've been considering it as I have a property that could generate some major cash...if we hit the $500's I'll pull the trigger as property sells in Seattle super fast with cash offers.

With negative forces left in play over the next 2 to 3 months or longer
  • unprecedented Fed QT every month sucking money out of the stock market and SP
  • Planned Fed interest rate hikes
  • Inflation numbers continuing to rise
  • Shanghai not at full speed
And the potential positives in the next 2 to 3 months (which don't look too likely/helpful)
  • Berlin and Austin ramp faster than expected
  • Fremont really steps up and fills the gap from Shanghai for Q2
  • Major reg credits in Q2
  • Some major leap in FSD
  • Some major legacy ICE maker goes chapter 11
 
Hard to believe we are at $633 as I type this, but I've been considering it as I have a property that could generate some major cash...if we hit the $500's I'll pull the trigger as property sells in Seattle super fast with cash offers.

With negative forces left in play over the next 2 to 3 months or longer
  • unprecedented Fed QT every month sucking money out of the stock market and SP
  • Planned Fed interest rate hikes
  • Inflation numbers continuing to rise
  • Shanghai not at full speed
And the potential positives in the next 2 to 3 months (which don't look too likely/helpful)
  • Berlin and Austin ramp faster than expected
  • Fremont really steps up and fills the gap from Shanghai for Q2
  • Major reg credits in Q2
  • Some major leap in FSD
  • Some major legacy ICE maker goes chapter 11
I tripled the amount I can draw down on my HELOC and started deploying some funds for the low $600s, which I personally think is a gift (50% of all time highs). My next trigger is around $550 and if we get to $500, I'm going all-in. $500, which is about a 25% drop from here, is kind of unthinkable, although I wouldn't be surprised. I'd equate that to things getting meaningfully worse (inflation is uncontrollable and rates need to go well north of 5%, Russia escalates aggression outside of Ukraine, supply chain issues get worse - meaning it continues to decrease as rapidly as demand falls off).

The only thing - and I mean the only thing - I'm worried about is bad employment numbers lagging all of this other negativity. My industry continues to hire, pay well, and people are spending. Until we have a situation similar to the GFC, where certain white collar industries were laying off heavily, I think TSLA will continue to enjoy demand outstripping supply, especially since other manufacturers can't even produce cars in meaningful volumes and gas prices continue to climb (finally hit $5 now by me in NJ).
 
Question for the group: I know we have all felt pain and that this is a great buy here, but what is the SP that would realistically tempt you to tap emergency funds and mortgage out properties to buy more TSLA. (No, not really but you get the idea. Tempted to use funds that are absolutely not meant for the market).
I'm ready for the end of the non-emergency reserves purchases going in around the $600 share price.

I think the emergency funds / mortgage properties / sell other stuff to buy more TSLA might be as early as $500. That would only be on a drop to that level where the company story / strategy / execution is intact, and probably requires that Q3 production have happened. I'm assuming that Q2 production will be spinnable as a miss / sky is falling result, to buy another 3 months of doom and gloom for the share price.
 
I
Hard to believe we are at $633 as I type this, but I've been considering it as I have a property that could generate some major cash...if we hit the $500's I'll pull the trigger as property sells in Seattle super fast with cash offers.

With negative forces left in play over the next 2 to 3 months or longer
  • unprecedented Fed QT every month sucking money out of the stock market and SP
  • Planned Fed interest rate hikes
  • Inflation numbers continuing to rise
  • Shanghai not at full speed
And the potential positives in the next 2 to 3 months (which don't look too likely/helpful)
  • Berlin and Austin ramp faster than expected
  • Fremont really steps up and fills the gap from Shanghai for Q2
  • Major reg credits in Q2
  • Some major leap in FSD
  • Some major legacy ICE maker goes chapter 11

The latest US inflation report wasn’t too bad. I got the impression inflation has peaked.

As for production, I get the sense that the market is pricing in worst case scenario. But Tesla is starting second shifts in Berlin and Shanghai. This may not be seen as “good enough“ or meeting previous guidance but could shift sentiment to “not as bad as expected” Sometimes that’s enough to backstop a slide.

At least I feel like the Tesla news over the past few days is more positive than it had been for the previous couple of months.

I’m afraid that market forces may overwhelm news over the short term though. Panic, capitulation, short attack, options gamma squeeze, stop losses…

On the other hands, there are countless investors with itchy trigger fingers ready to pile in when they think we’ve bottomed.
 
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With short sellers limited on Monday, I’m certainly hoping for a Green Day. But hoping and doing nothing when things drop is not a strategy. So my plan is to watch the SP and MACD indicator. If it looks like there is selling, then I will sell 30% of my shares to generate cash. Let’s say the SP is 650 when I sell. I have just enough margin at that level. I plan to put in a Buy Stop-loss order at 648, so if the SP rebounds, I buy the shares back. Rinse and repeat as necessary. Obviously it will generate a long term capital gain on the first sell, but they should be basically free to rebuy and sell after that. If it drops all the way to 500, I then rebuy the shares at 500 (if margin allows) and use the difference for my taxes once the threat is over. It seems like a V shaped recovery is around the corner, but as others have said, we could go lower and stay there a while. I need large cash reserve for my stupid ITM Decembers BPS, but I don’t want to miss the recovery either. Is there a flaw I’m not considering?