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Wiki Selling TSLA Options - Be the House

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I'm assuming you want to buy the shares when the price seems to be going up. If you buy the shares at 710 with intention of selling 650CC for the $5 time value, you will get more premium if the SP is at 715 than at 710. But if it reverses before you can put the 650CC order in and the SP drops below 705, you lose.
Wanted to put this in a separate, and smaller post.

My logic is I want to buy the shares on a down day, same as for a csp. I sell the call at the same time, and I want the share price to rise after opening the position. The shares will gain value faster than the short call loses value, and eventually (at expiration) all of the original time value will have been earned and the short call plus long shares can be closed for a net gain of the opening extrinsic value.


@CHGolferJim has been doign these for months I believe. I bet he's got plenty more wisdom to impart if we can persuade him to :)
 
One notion to keep in mind regarding straddles - as the share price moves away from the straddle price, the losing side will be losing faster than the winning side is winning. The further away you get, the more dramatic this affect will be. Has to do with the changes in delta.

If you hold to expiration then you get that $50 window dynamic. But before then the trade can go pretty far negative.

A thought experiment - you sell the 725 straddle and collect $50. The next day the shares drop to 675; a bad outcome but hardly outside of the window of recent price moves. The put side is doing badly - its now $50 ITM plus some time value - maybe $64 ($14 time value based on option chain I have open) vs. the $25 open. Meanwhile the short call has been gaining value in value and dropped from that $25 open to around $13. You've gained $12 on one side while losing $39 on the other side for a net -$27. If the shares are flat from there to expiration then you get the break even, but you get there by way of a net -27 and get the additional joy of sitting on a position that gets really bad fast if it continues going down.


Not trying to say that straddles are a bad trade - only working out an example to show the dynamic where the losing side is losing, faster than the winning side is winning. This dynamic is pretty even in the vicinity of the straddle strike, so gains on one side offset losses on the other.

Beyond that I haven't done anything with straddles. I do leg my way into strangles, and I even like having both puts and calls open at the same time. It just doesn't happen often these days due to the trading rules I am getting better and better at adhering to.
I agree with your points, but a straddle going ITM is better than a put or a call going ITM as you can weather more of a move due to the premiums gained

Of course the difference is that one side of the trade is almost certainly going to be ITM, but just a question of how much
 
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Ok, truth time. Even though today SP action was almost exactly as I expected, I still managed to screw up. Once again, my timing was terrible, selling c725s at $12.50, way too early. Then, during the rocket rise to 740, got scared and rolled my 715 strangle to next week, though for about $15cr net (all credit on the -p715, rolled call up to 7/31 -c740 at $33, zero net).

Properly timed, I could have made more than my monthly salary today, closing everything at the end of the day. Instead I’m hoping for a Friday close below $725 just to clear less than half that.🤔 In any case, my free cash is in better shape and I hope to pick up a handful of cheaper chairs tomorrow. I do still expect MaxPain to rule Friday, closing at $705+/-$4.99, but, for tomorrow I expect a drop below $700 to “test” or “scare” that weak put wall at 700. Maybe it will break and we stay below 700, maybe it won’t. GLTA

I can't get my timing right either... I am entering trades way to soon but when I decide to be patient the opportunity for a good entry never happens. This week could have been a really good one but I guess maybe making a little more is better than losing money. This week I feel really frustrated.
 
Put it together into a single transaction. When the short call is reasonably close to the money (say $50) then the bid/ask is small and if its on the same ticket then a changing share price won't matter.

In practice I tend to use market orders and enter the two positions separately. So far I haven't seen it make a meaningful difference.



NOT-ADVICE. And incoming book :D

Here's how I'm doing them. The short version is - open the buy-write on a down day / downward move in the share price. If you do, and you sell the call ATM, then you're hoping for a rebound that stays above the share purchase price and yields the max gain of the short call credit. Kind of exactly like a cash secured put :)

You -don't- want to continue owning these shares. If you're doing these weekly then the ideal state is for the shares to be sold every week. (This is the toughie for me - letting shares go).


The first point is that I'm using the cash that would otherwise be backing cash secured puts. My mental model, and I'm still adjusting to it, is that these buy-writes substitute directly for csp. I open them using the same logic and I manage them using related (but admittedly, somewhat different) logic and rules.

Because I use these as an alternative to a CSP, I open a new position on a down move - same as I would for a cash secured put. In a traditional buy-write the short call is sold at the same time, and ideally in the same transaction.

The short call can be sold ITM or ATM/OTM. I consider the latter to be the same logic - we're looking to earn money from both a gain in the share price as well as the short call credit. We are also taking on additional risk in the form of a drop in the share price.

With an ITM sale we're looking for a max gain from the original extrinsic value while also reducing the risk of a significant drop in the share price that would leave our newly purchased shares 'stranded'.

For risk management reasons I find myself drawn to the ITM call sale.

Wherever you position the short call strike, if you work the math out at expiration, every share price above the short strike results in a max gain on the position. Just like with a csp we're looking to earn the opening credit (extrinsic value), close the position, and start a new one when the time is right.


These outcomes assume that you take a full close of the position at expiration. But you don't have to!

Management has 3 broad options available.

- The obvious one - full close of the position every time. When the share price goes down enough you'll be realizing a loss.

- Shares go up enough - take the max gain and full close.

- More interesting is when shares are flat to down - we don't actually have to sell the shares on every position, and its reasonably straightforward to collect big credits while waiting for the share price to recover (more traditional cc logic, but with an underlying desire to sell and sell soon). As a bonus on a big move down the ITM call sale will generate a VERY large realized gain (while retaining the unrealized loss - its not free).


A present example. If I were opening a buy-write today I would probably be selling the 650 strike call. Buy shares at 708, sell 650 strike cc (next Friday expiration) for $71.50. That has about $13 worth of extrinsic value and that's the focus of the position for me - that is what I am looking to earn.

Assuming a full close I earn the $13 at every share price above $650.

If the shares go down below 650 then I can full close for the loss minus the $71.50 entry. Say share price of 600 I lose $108, receive 71.50, and lose a net 36.50.

BUT I also have the choice to close the short call and retain the shares (expecting a share price reversal). If shares drop to 600 then I can close the short call for 0 (realized gain of 71.50) while carrying an unrealized loss of $108. I might sell the 650 strike cc again for the following week and, guessing, collect another $13. If the shares return to anything above 650 (let's use 670 as an example) and I full close, then I earn the 71.50 plus 13 and lose the 58 from selling the shares at 650 (the call strike) and show a net realized gain of $26 or so on the position with no remaining unrealized gain or loss.

OR I could keep going, sell the 670 (ATM) cc and collect $20-30 (let's call it $20). If the shares finish above 670 and I (finally) full close then the overall position was 71.50 from week 1, 13.00 from week 2, $20 from week 3, and -38 from buying shares at 708 and selling them at 670. Net of 106.50 - 38 or around $70 for what turned into a 3 week position.

Each time I replace the short call with a new one, I also want to ponder whether its time to full close instead. This is a no-brainer when the share price rises far enough above the call strike. Say 800 share price with a 700 call strike - take the max gain and look for the next entry.

If the share price is near the call strike then it might be about the same to keep the unrealized loss/gain in the shares and replace the ending short call with a new short call.


Closest to advice I have - if this sounds interesting, then starting up a single buy-write is easy to do. Remember that unlike core shares, you DO NOT want to be attached to these shares. There are good results (relative to a CSP) from closing up shop every week, and there are good results from building a larger and larger net credit each week. Keep an eye on the call strike, to opening share price, to accumulated credit relationship. It's a more complex thing to track than other positions we've been doing.
You make the exact same premium just selling a 650 CSP. Outcome is the same is the SP stays above 650, except that you had extra cash in your account during the week compared to the buy/write. If it drops to 620, you own shares in both cases, except that in the buy-write they have a cost basis of 708, and in the CSP they have a cost basis of 650.... (not taking time value premium into account).
 
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Musing on @adiggs's buy-write posts and @Yoona's straddle post - also one of my favourite patterns - I put this to you all...

Imagine you have $700k cash and are wanting to trade it against $TSLA right now:
Step 1: write 2x -pATM, rinse/repeat weekly until exercised and you get 200 shares
Step 2: write 2x -pATM/-cATM, you still have enough cash to write 8 puts, but limit it to 2x as you'll be receiving 2x the premium
Step 3: allow both to expire, one side will exercise
ITM calls: your shares get sold
ITM puts: you buy another 200 shares

In either case, you've pocketed 2x the premium compared to selling either calls or puts

It's like "The Wheel" on steroids!
This is really interesting. Entering through a cash secured put, then turning into a covered call/cash secured put straddle. This mitigates some of the downsides of a "naked" straddle. I need to think about this a lot more, but it sounds promising!
 
Ok, truth time. Even though today SP action was almost exactly as I expected, I still managed to screw up. Once again, my timing was terrible, selling c725s at $12.50, way too early. Then, during the rocket rise to 740, got scared and rolled my 715 strangle to next week, though for about $15cr net (all credit on the -p715, rolled call up to 7/31 -c740 at $33, zero net).

Properly timed, I could have made more than my monthly salary today, closing everything at the end of the day. Instead I’m hoping for a Friday close below $725 just to clear less than half that.🤔 In any case, my free cash is in better shape and I hope to pick up a handful of cheaper chairs tomorrow. I do still expect MaxPain to rule Friday, closing at $705+/-$4.99, but, for tomorrow I expect a drop below $700 to “test” or “scare” that weak put wall at 700. Maybe it will break and we stay below 700, maybe it won’t. GLTA
As expected, they “tested” the 700 put wall, then bounced from 690 back to 710. This time I was ready (well kinda since I forgot to set my alarm clock). I bought back calls at 75% profit (12.50->3.20), then reset sell orders on $5 different strikes. Two accounts I went down a strike and one I went up a strike. Sold 2nd CCs pretty close to 710 SP, so did fairly well (BTC 725s at $3.22, STO 730s at $5.50):cool:. Unfortunately, I forgot to set share buys until after I was all done with the options. Oh well, they are set for $692 if we have an afternoon fade. Now just hoping that I’m right about Friday 705+/-4.99. GLTA.
 
Sold some July 1st 870s for ~ .62 cents (technically against the same set of shares that have CC's expiring this week - different shares, but this week CC all expiring tomorrow).

$1 CCs from 2 days back are now .02 c

+ I want my CC's to consistently lay eggs, without the MM's frying be as bacon ;)
 
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sold 7/1 -c690 rolled to 6/24 -c710, quick $8 daytrade

BW vs CSP got me so excited and kept me up all night

my 2 🪙 :
  • if sp spikes up fast (ie another Hertz), BWriter can choose to decouple. Roll out the -c. Sell stock for mind-blown profit and wait for market reversal. Rebuy stock when it comes down
  • if sp is dropping and i want to bail, it is cheaper to close -c than -p. CSP needs more reserved cash than BW
  • if sp drops fast (ie another st*pid tweet), CSP has risk of early assignment; BW is relaxed
  • if sp closes exactly at strike, both will expire but the BWriter has stock while the CSP writer has cash... BW is at the mercy of the market until Monday Open while the CSP writer is relaxed with cash and has no weekend black swan risk
  • if sp closes OTM, BW has potential extra profit via stock appreciation while CSP had premium only
  • i think CSP is not allowed in some retirement accts
  • market is not yet at the bottom, is this week's rise a bull trap? BW is taking risk IF seller got attached to the shares. De-risk by letting go - stick to the original plan
  • uptick rule was triggered 4 times this year, and once every month during the last 3 months; is CSP ready for maybe another 10% drop in Jul?
 
  • market is not yet at the bottom, is this week's rise a bull trap? BW is taking risk IF seller got attached to the shares. De-risk by letting go - stick to the original plan
  • uptick rule was triggered 4 times this year, and once every month during the last 3 months; is CSP ready for maybe another 10% drop in Jul?
otoh: Market (esp. TSLA) formed a double-bottom. Indicators say it looks oversold (ie. 2 std-dev down on the weekly chart below the BB), yesterday a lot of call-buyers showed up in the market.
I still fear a bull-trap. Especially if we break resistance (350 on SPY, 620 on TSLA iirc) we could leg down to 325 SPY/550 TSLA.
Otherwise: only a week left in the quarter. What if production-numbers (esp. S&X) come in way higher than expected? Someone in the other thread said, that from a profit-perspective 1 S/X is worth 3 3/Y because of the higher ASP & Margins.
Could be very bullish for earnings (damped by bitcoin-impairment etc.). Maybe we will see a spike in the first week of july & a reversal towards 620 .. or we will rebound & then the first resistance should be ~800 but i think even that will be overcome & we see a reversal only at 900 (because that was support/resistance some months ago before we legged a lot lower). With the double-bottom it lines up to form a W-Shape if we rise to 900 in the next 3 weeks...

I shifted every significant long position to september and later & only sell short calls against it to milk (in the ideal world) more theta than i pay. I will bite the bullet and roll the long calls out at least at the end of next months to still keep hold of the upside. I still see TSLA @1000 this year and don't want to give up hope 😅

But i also do a bit of daytrading with long puts/calls if we have a clear direction or resistance & reversal-level.

One thing i played:
+700/--710/+730-Ratio Butterfly around the max-pain. On the dip earlier i moved it to a +700/--710/+720 free-fly. Locked in at least 0.8$ profit with a potential of ~12$ profit if we hit 710 on the head tomorrow. I already got a sell-order set for ~7$ if that hits tomorrow :D

Learnings: Would have been easier to open that ratio butterfly on a massive up-day (like when SP was 740) centered on max-pain (as this has the highest probability of still being "run over" by friday). Then when SP drops below max-pain it should be possible to "make it free", lock in ~5% profit & hope the MM do their magic and nail the SP on the max-pain on friday :D
 
I can't get my timing right either... I am entering trades way to soon but when I decide to be patient the opportunity for a good entry never happens. This week could have been a really good one but I guess maybe making a little more is better than losing money. This week I feel really frustrated.
I'm more surprised reading the posts from people who ARE getting the timing right. I don't contribute much because I'd rather stay on topic but the TSLA moves are way too big and unpredictable for me in this bear market. I was drawn to this thread a year ago because the majority of my income was short TSLA puts because it was so easy for a long time.

It's just not worth the premium for me when volatility is already elevated market wide so indices (SPX currently my favorite) are worth looking at if whoever reading this is still interested in short option strategies but having a hard time with TSLA.
 
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Picked up 1000 shares around 700 today thinking we would close up (with the plan to keep the shares for Jun 2024 CC I sold last week). However, once I saw all S&P, Dow, NASDAQ all heading down, and TSLA was below my purchase price, I decided to sell 10X 700CC for $25 for next Friday. At least I made $25k for next week and I will try again to get shares for those 2024CC another day if we are over 700 next week.
 
Picked up 1000 shares around 700 today thinking we would close up (with the plan to keep the shares for Jun 2024 CC I sold last week). However, once I saw all S&P, Dow, NASDAQ all heading down, and TSLA was below my purchase price, I decided to sell 10X 700CC for $25 for next Friday. At least I made $25k for next week and I will try again to get shares for those 2024CC another day if we are over 700 next week.
not 7/1 -c670 for 42.50 instead? :)
 
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