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Wiki Selling TSLA Options - Be the House

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"Trust me, you don't want to sell a 24 MTE CC if your goal is to get out of those shares at BE."

Thanks for the reply. I'm a noob, can you help me understand why it's not a good idea to sell a 24 MTE CC.

It seems if I sold 4 CC's today @ $1,000 for 6/21/24 I'd get $70k premium, which should more than cover my interest on the $370k margin loan for the next two years AND at the end of the two years the 400 TSLA shares will be off my hands at least at my break-even and not at a loss. It seems only upside, so I'm sure I'm missing something. Could it be that carrying the 400 shares on the margin for 24 months adds risk for if TSLA drops below my PNR I can be in a margin call, so better to cut them loose sooner?


Also, these 400 TSLA shares, out of 1,350 long, are day-trading shares I got stuck with in April once the market began to drop. My plan is as soon as they get to b/e, i.e., share price around $985, to cut them loose anyway (my cost basis for them is around $988).
If I liquidate them today I'd take a loss of $43k.

Thanks again!


Screenshot.jpga.jpg
 
The buy-write approach isn't fully clicking for me so can you please help me understand this approach vs selling a naked put? I looked back a few pages to see if there was an argument/trade between these approaches but didn't see it. Sorry if I missed it...

Buy write example with 100 shares
- Buy shares at 720 - $72,000 cost
- Sell -690c - $4600 premium.
- Total out of pocket/risk $67,700
- Intrinsic value $3000
- Extrinsic value $1600
- If TSLA closes ITM total profit would be $1600 (do I have this right?)

Why not sell a cash covered -690p for ~$1500?

I see the total money at risk on the BW is $67.2K and the naked put is $67.5K.

What am I missing?
For me, I need less margin to buy shares and write a CC, than to do a naked Put for the same strike. Don't know why (because in one case I'm buying the shares with cash right away, and in the other I'm saying I will buy for a slightly lower price. Error in Fidelity Margin Calculator?). But otherwise you are correct. They usually pay about the same.
 
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Thanks for the reply. I'm a noob, can you help me understand why it's not a good idea to sell a 24 MTE CC.

It seems if I sold 4 CC's today @ $1,000 for 6/21/24 I'd get $70k premium, which should more than cover my interest on the $370k margin loan for the next two years AND at the end of the two years the 400 TSLA shares will be off my hands at least at my break-even and not at a loss. It seems only upside, so I'm sure I'm missing something. Could it be that carrying the 400 shares on the margin for 24 months adds risk for if TSLA drops below my PNR I can be in a margin call, so better to cut them loose sooner?


Also, these 400 TSLA shares, out of 1,350 long, are day-trading shares I got stuck with in April once the market began to drop. My plan is as soon as they get to b/e, i.e., share price around $985, to cut them loose anyway (my cost basis for them is around $988).
If I liquidate them today I'd take a loss of $43k.

Thanks again!


View attachment 828997View attachment 829001
I don't see a significant downside, and the $70k premium you earn now adds to your margin cushion (and you won't have taxes due on the money from the 24 month call until expiration). The only downside is you can make more money over the next 24 months doing weekly CC, but you can screw that up and have your shares called away at a big loss (and stress every week). Don't even consider naked Calls that were suggested earlier. All spreads should also be avoided by anyone new to options. If you are going to sell them in the coming week, I would try to time it on a bump before earnings (I'm assuming we drop after earnings), because the higher the SP, the higher the premium. So another "intermediate" option could be to sell CCs for $1,000 strike in December 2022, and then roll them to 2024 (buy to close the old ones, sell to open the new ones) when the SP is higher and you will get a lot more premium.

If you are interested in the weekly option, look at the open every Monday. Multiply that by 1.2. Sell CC for that Friday for that number. So if we open at 750 on Monday, sell 900 CC for Friday and just let it expire. Repeat the following Monday. If we actually rise 20% and it goes ITM, then roll it to the next Friday for a strike as high as you can without paying a debit. Based on data from Yoona and others, 20% OTM should be safe if you are around Friday for the rare roll. If the SP really gets away from you, then roll it farther out for more premium. The biggest danger is around events like earnings.

If Monday the NASDAQ is significantly green in pre-market, and TSLA is green in pre-market, then wait 5 minutes because we usually climb right off the open on those days. Then it might sell off a little before climbing again if it is going to be a Green Day. Today was very weird in that we didn't follow the NASDAQ well after the first 5 minutes (despite both being nicely green in pre-market).
 
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I don't see a significant downside, and the $70k premium you earn now adds to your margin cushion (and you won't have taxes due on the money from the 24 month call until expiration). The only downside is you can make more money over the next 24 months doing weekly CC, but you can screw that up and have your shares called away at a big loss (and stress every week). Don't even consider naked Calls that were suggested earlier. All spreads should also be avoided by anyone new to options. If you are going to sell them in the coming week, I would try to time it on a bump before earnings (I'm assuming we drop after earnings), because the higher the SP, the higher the premium. So another "intermediate" option could be to sell CCs for $1,000 strike in December 2022, and then roll them to 2024 (buy to close the old ones, sell to open the new ones) when the SP is higher and you will get a lot more premium.

If you are interested in the weekly option, look at the open every Monday. Multiply that by 1.2. Sell CC for that Friday for that number. So if we open at 750 on Monday, sell 900 CC for Friday and just let it expire. Repeat the following Monday. If we actually rise 20% and it goes ITM, then roll it to the next Friday for a strike as high as you can without paying a debit. Based on data from Yoona and others, 20% OTM should be safe if you are around Friday for the rare roll. If the SP really gets away from you, then roll it farther out for more premium. The biggest danger is around events like earnings.

If Monday the NASDAQ is significantly green in pre-market, and TSLA is green in pre-market, then wait 5 minutes because we usually climb right off the open on those days. Then it might sell off a little before climbing again if it is going to be a Green Day. Today was very weird in that we didn't follow the NASDAQ well after the first 5 minutes (despite both being nicely green in pre-market).

Thank you, doc! I especially like this idea you suggested: Sell CCs for $1,000 strike in December 2022, and then roll them to 2024 (buy to close the old ones, sell to open the new ones) when the SP is higher and you will get a lot more premium.

I guess the downside is holding the shares all those months, and possibly 12-24 months, once they're passed the $1,000 SP and now all that time they're "weighing" on my margin equity balance until exp. or they get exercised, which can be longer than if I've just waited it out myself and sold once it hit $1,000sp.
 
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For me, I need less margin to buy shares and write a CC, than to do a naked Put for the same strike. Don't know why (because in one case I'm buying the shares with cash right away, and in the other I'm saying I will buy for a slightly lower price. Error in Fidelity Margin Calculator?). But otherwise you are correct. They usually pay about the same.

Isn’t it because the shares are marginable and the put is not? So you get a certain % buying power from holding the shares that you don’t from the put.
 
Thanks for the reply. I'm a noob, can you help me understand why it's not a good idea to sell a 24 MTE CC.

It seems if I sold 4 CC's today @ $1,000 for 6/21/24 I'd get $70k premium, which should more than cover my interest on the $370k margin loan for the next two years AND at the end of the two years the 400 TSLA shares will be off my hands at least at my break-even and not at a loss. It seems only upside, so I'm sure I'm missing something. Could it be that carrying the 400 shares on the margin for 24 months adds risk for if TSLA drops below my PNR I can be in a margin call, so better to cut them loose sooner?


Also, these 400 TSLA shares, out of 1,350 long, are day-trading shares I got stuck with in April once the market began to drop. My plan is as soon as they get to b/e, i.e., share price around $985, to cut them loose anyway (my cost basis for them is around $988).
If I liquidate them today I'd take a loss of $43k.

Thanks again!


View attachment 828997View attachment 829001
like @BornToFly said, 70k for 400s over 2 years works out to about $175 a week per 100s. I wouldnt be happy with that. I would need at least double that. The bigger problem is if the stock rebounces hard next month, you will have a hard time getting to BE if you were stuck with 4x 2024 1000C. It wont be over for you for a very long time. Its a good defesive move. I guess a defensive move is not what you need right now at 720 with q3 and q4 on tap.
 
The buy-write approach isn't fully clicking for me so can you please help me understand this approach vs selling a naked put? I looked back a few pages to see if there was an argument/trade between these approaches but didn't see it. Sorry if I missed it...

Buy write example with 100 shares
- Buy shares at 720 - $72,000 cost
- Sell -690c - $4600 premium.
- Total out of pocket/risk $67,700
- Intrinsic value $3000
- Extrinsic value $1600
- If TSLA closes ITM total profit would be $1600 (do I have this right?)

Why not sell a cash covered -690p for ~$1500?

I see the total money at risk on the BW is $67.2K and the naked put is $67.5K.

What am I missing?
not-advice
But here's what i see.
First approximation you are spot on. I use the buy-write with the same resources, for the same reason, and with almost all the same strategy as a cash secured put.

Second approximation - I also expect very, very similar max gains / extrinsic value.


What the buy-write does for me. Using your example

On the 690c, the covered call is earning more as the shares go down. At a 680 share price the buy-write has earned the $46 (still has the $40 unrealized loss). As long as the purchased shares price is so low, then a rebound to 720 is expected, and when it happens all of that unrealized loss will be clawed back. I get an extra kick for the profit.

And maybe its just psychological, and a preference for how to setup the same trade. :)
 
The buy-write approach isn't fully clicking for me so can you please help me understand this approach vs selling a naked put? I looked back a few pages to see if there was an argument/trade between these approaches but didn't see it. Sorry if I missed it...

Buy write example with 100 shares
- Buy shares at 720 - $72,000 cost
- Sell -690c - $4600 premium.
- Total out of pocket/risk $67,700
- Intrinsic value $3000
- Extrinsic value $1600
- If TSLA closes ITM total profit would be $1600 (do I have this right?)

Why not sell a cash covered -690p for ~$1500?

I see the total money at risk on the BW is $67.2K and the naked put is $67.5K.

What am I missing?
to all my people: greetings from Europe! apologies if my facts aren't straight, perhaps i'm not paying attention...

690 buying power if using margin:
- shares + CC have positive bp (+34,500); -p has negative bp (-34,500)
- -p has more risk of margin call?

if sp is going up too fast (aka Hertz):
- B/W can decouple: close the CC quick (for maybe a loss) and let the stock ride up (unlimited and bigger profit due to 1 delta)
- -p can also close but profit is capped at initial credit

if sp is dropping fast:
- it is cheaper to close CC than -p
- -p eventually has risk of early assignment

if expiry 689:
- B/W realized gain 46, unrealized loss 31 on stocks; net 15
- -p realized gain 15, unrealized loss 1 on stocks; net 14
- B/W has more panic at this stage, especially if sp keeps dropping
- if 15 (68,900/4600) contracts opened, B/W has enough profits to buy 100 more shares at the bargain price

if expiry exactly 690 (this is rare?):
- B/W expires; realized gain 46, unrealized loss 30 on stocks; net 16
- -p expires; has 15 and no stock

if expiry >690:
- B/W realized gain 16 and no stock
- -p realized gain 15 and no stock

if expiry 780:
- B/W may have regrets due to "lost 60 opportunity"

1657942233121.png
 
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like @BornToFly said, 70k for 400s over 2 years works out to about $175 a week per 100s. I wouldnt be happy with that. I would need at least double that. The bigger problem is if the stock rebounces hard next month, you will have a hard time getting to BE if you were stuck with 4x 2024 1000C. It wont be over for you for a very long time. Its a good defesive move. I guess a defensive move is not what you need right now at 720 with q3 and q4 on tap.
@MonseyGuy I also wouldn't be happy selling long dated CC just to raise cash to cover the margin interest. When I've done the calculations in the past the premiums gained from selling weekly CC have been around double those from a long dated CC. And you have the advantage of following the evolving share price and not being stuck with CC that are hundreds or thousands of dollars ITM at expiry.

One approach that hasn't been mentioned is to sell LEAP BPS to remove the margin loan altogether. You can then set about selling weekly CC or other options cover the cost of the LEAP BPS. If the share price moves up enough then the BPS could expire worthless or you can sell the shares closer to or above the original price and pay off the lower BPS cost. Note that this approach works best in a Portfolio margin account like IBKR and is by no means a beginner strategy so you would need to understand what you're doing with options and maintenance margin a lot more first.

So the approach I would take (and Not Advice) if I was in a similar situation would be:
  • Open a Portfolio margin account with your current broker or someone like IBKR, whichever worked out better.
  • Transfer whatever shares/cash you need to establish enough margin (may be tricky to do in another broker without selling shares. But can be done anyway, you would just need to re-establish positions later).
  • Sell sufficient BPS to cover the margin loan. Something like say 43 x JUN 21 '24 1300/1400 BPS would generate $374,500 in credit premiums and for me would initially require around $65k in maintenance margin backing. (Note that Portfolio margin requirements would increase in future as expiry nears and share price increases, up to around $430k max). By the sounds of it your account should currently have sufficient maintenance margin cushion to cover this.
  • Use the premium generated from the BPS to pay off the margin loan (no ongoing interest).
  • Sell weekly 'safe' options premiums to generate cash to cover the BPS and increase portfolio value and maintenance margin. If the share price is above the BPS P- by expiry then the BPS would expire worthless and you keep the shares and cash. If the BPS are still in the money, at any time they can be rolled out to later, bought back or a combo of both.
As noted, this is not a simple approach but has some overall advantages compared to long dated CC's (you could even do both). Therefore it's important you gain a more complete understanding of options trading before venturing too far into any strategy that relies on your ability to trade your way out of the current situation.
 
Thanks for the reply. I'm a noob, can you help me understand why it's not a good idea to sell a 24 MTE CC.

It seems if I sold 4 CC's today @ $1,000 for 6/21/24 I'd get $70k premium, which should more than cover my interest on the $370k margin loan for the next two years AND at the end of the two years the 400 TSLA shares will be off my hands at least at my break-even and not at a loss. It seems only upside, so I'm sure I'm missing something. Could it be that carrying the 400 shares on the margin for 24 months adds risk for if TSLA drops below my PNR I can be in a margin call, so better to cut them loose sooner?


Also, these 400 TSLA shares, out of 1,350 long, are day-trading shares I got stuck with in April once the market began to drop. My plan is as soon as they get to b/e, i.e., share price around $985, to cut them loose anyway (my cost basis for them is around $988).
If I liquidate them today I'd take a loss of $43k.

Thanks again!
not-advice
Do not even consider selling spreads. You're already leveraged with that margin loan, last thing you want to do is add more leverage and add more risk. Risk of that backfiring is just too big of a risk to take.

Selling long-dated covered calls sounds like a simple, low-risk approach to me.

Here's another simple approach:
- liquidate those margined shares, realize the 43k loss
- sell 4x 12/16/22 700 puts, these pay about $10k each

No more margin loan, and as long as TSLA is >700 in december, those puts will expire worthless. If not, these are easy to roll. Or you will buy 400 shares with cost basis of 700 (if calculating the option premium towards gaining back already realized loss).
The margin of your remaining 950 shares should cover those 4 puts easily down to around 300-400 share price. If tsla drops that much then you may need to buy some protective puts.

Again, not advice. If I was in your situation, I would probably take the loss, then make it back up by selling weeklies.
 
not-advice
But here's what i see.
First approximation you are spot on. I use the buy-write with the same resources, for the same reason, and with almost all the same strategy as a cash secured put.

Second approximation - I also expect very, very similar max gains / extrinsic value.


What the buy-write does for me. Using your example

On the 690c, the covered call is earning more as the shares go down. At a 680 share price the buy-write has earned the $46 (still has the $40 unrealized loss). As long as the purchased shares price is so low, then a rebound to 720 is expected, and when it happens all of that unrealized loss will be clawed back. I get an extra kick for the profit.

And maybe its just psychological, and a preference for how to setup the same trade. :)
I didn't do this with TSLA, but did it with another stock. I bought it late June when the stock opened up about 2% down (~$49), then wrote a Nov $60 call two days later when it had ran up about 5% for $5.40. Fortunately or unfortunately, the stock is sitting at $63 right now, so I'm almost at max profit.

This was a short-term housing pain/recovery super cycle type of trade, so I thought we'd see further stock depression until inflation eased. Regardless, I'll take the 32% capped return in 6 months. The theme was extra income in a market I expected to trade flat for the next few months.
 
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Thanks for the reply. I'm a noob, can you help me understand why it's not a good idea to sell a 24 MTE CC.

It seems if I sold 4 CC's today @ $1,000 for 6/21/24 I'd get $70k premium, which should more than cover my interest on the $370k margin loan for the next two years AND at the end of the two years the 400 TSLA shares will be off my hands at least at my break-even and not at a loss. It seems only upside, so I'm sure I'm missing something. Could it be that carrying the 400 shares on the margin for 24 months adds risk for if TSLA drops below my PNR I can be in a margin call, so better to cut them loose sooner?


Also, these 400 TSLA shares, out of 1,350 long, are day-trading shares I got stuck with in April once the market began to drop. My plan is as soon as they get to b/e, i.e., share price around $985, to cut them loose anyway (my cost basis for them is around $988).
If I liquidate them today I'd take a loss of $43k.

Thanks again!


View attachment 828997View attachment 829001

I second samppa's point about NOT using spreads. Although it can be very profitable, it can also turn ugly VERY quickly. Remember that as TSLA drops, your available margin ALSO drops!

I also like samppa's idea about taking the loss now and selling csp's, because if you sold the 24-month LEAP CC's profitably, they would still be taxed as short-term capital gains. That's a LOT of waiting for no tax savings. But I disagree with the use of Dec '22 700p, since that's a defensive move that only gets you back to break-even. You'll miss-out on any rise in SP.

My non-advice is to sell 3x Dec '22 800p for $15.8k each. That'll give you enough to pay off the remainder of the margin loan as well as leave a little extra to buy an extra LEAP or two to take advantage of any rise in TSLA. If the puts get exercised on you, you do end up paying more though. Oh, one other drawback (in addition to those mentioned by others) with this method. IF the puts gets exercised less than 30 days from when you take the loss on those 400 day-trading shares, that loss would be considered a wash-sale and you won't be able to take the capital loss against your short-term gains from selling the CC's and CSP's, and that would be adding insult to injury.
 
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I second samppa's point about NOT using spreads. Although it can be very profitable, it can also turn ugly VERY quickly. Remember that as TSLA drops, your available margin ALSO drops!

I also like samppa's idea about taking the loss now and selling csp's, because if you sold the 24-month LEAP CC's profitably, they would still be taxed as short-term capital gains. That's a LOT of waiting for no tax savings. But I disagree with the use of Dec '22 700p, since that's a defensive move that only gets you back to break-even. You'll miss-out on any rise in SP.

My non-advice is to sell 3x Dec '22 800p for $15.8k each. That'll give you enough to pay off the remainder of the margin loan as well as leave a little extra to buy an extra LEAP or two to take advantage of any rise in TSLA. If the puts get exercised on you, you do end up paying more though. Oh, one other drawback (in addition to those mentioned by others) with this method. IF the puts gets exercised less than 30 days from when you take the loss on those 400 day-trading shares, that loss would be considered a wash-sale and you won't be able to take the capital loss against your short-term gains from selling the CC's and CSP's, and that would be adding insult to injury.

Thank you, I like the idea of knocking out the margin loan today by selling some puts not too far out.

What did you mean by “If the puts get exercised on you, you do end up paying more though”?

Also, what LEAP would you buy with the extra cash?

Finally, while no one obviously knows for sure, what’s the conservative consensus where TSLA might be in December?

Thanks again 🙏
 
Thank you, I like the idea of knocking out the margin loan today by selling some puts not too far out.

What did you mean by “If the puts get exercised on you, you do end up paying more though”?

Also, what LEAP would you buy with the extra cash?

Finally, while no one obviously knows for sure, what’s the conservative consensus where TSLA might be in December?

Thanks again 🙏
We've bounced between a price to sales valuation of 10-20 this year. If we end the year with about 1.4M vehicles produced we could see the following price range:
P/S : share price
10 : $850
15 : $1240
20 : $1650

Bullish factors include production ramps at Austin, Berlin, and Shanghai. Dropping commodity prices. Average sale price ticking up with price hikes over the last six months just now starting to be realized. Easing chip and supply chain issues. Next year we should see production of semi, cybertruck and roadster.
 
Thank you, I like the idea of knocking out the margin loan today by selling some puts not too far out.

What did you mean by “If the puts get exercised on you, you do end up paying more though”?

Also, what LEAP would you buy with the extra cash?

Finally, while no one obviously knows for sure, what’s the conservative consensus where TSLA might be in December?

Thanks again 🙏
not-advice. And yet - something like advice.

From some of your questions it sounds like you haven't yet been through the basic options videos / training linked in the Wiki and the first page of the thread. Its not a requirement by any means, but that knowledge is assumed.

One thing to be sure is crystal clear on - this isn't free / easy money or something of that ilk. If you think you're looking at free or easy money, then keep looking - there's something you're missing :) If for no other reason there are other market participants that are way better capitalized, have way better technology, and way more trading tools and time than all of us combined will ever have. THEY have bought up all the free / easy money.
 
Here's another simple approach:
- liquidate those margined shares, realize the 43k loss
- sell 4x 12/16/22 700 puts, these pay about $10k each

No more margin loan, and as long as TSLA is >700 in december, those puts will expire worthless. If not, these are easy to roll. Or you will buy 400 shares with cost basis of 700 (if calculating the option premium towards gaining back already realized loss).
The margin of your remaining 950 shares should cover those 4 puts easily down to around 300-400 share price. If tsla drops that much then you may need to buy some protective puts.

Again, not advice. If I was in your situation, I would probably take the loss, then make it back up by selling weeklies.
Wait a minute. If he bought 400 shares at 1,000, and sells them now at 720, the loss is $112,000, not 43k. I can't remember if they were all bought on margin. If so, he would still have a loan and no shares. Really hard to make back $112k selling a couple safe Puts/week on margin, and you can make the situation worse.

Selling CC against your shares is the only safe option that won't get you into more margin trouble if the SP drops more.

I do hate selling long dated CC when the SP is low like it is now, because they will be red as soon as the SP rises. Now it doesn't really matter that they are red, other than it is showing you everyday how much more you would have made selling the CC if you had just waited until the SP was higher.... That is where selling the weekly CC until the SP recovers could be the best option as long as he is able to do it ok. We take for granted how hard it is for someone who has never done it before. I helped a friend get into options selling, and for many weeks I was on the phone with him constantly making sure he opened and closed positions correctly. It reminded me how confusing it is in the beginning for a newbie to navigate an options chain and place the correct orders.

Edit: I had sold some cash secured Puts in my mom's account months ago. Shares got assigned around 1,000 SP. I have just been waiting for the SP to rise higher than it is now to sell any CC against them, but I can be patient because they were not purchased with a loan (so no interest payments to worry about).
 
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Thank you, doc! I especially like this idea you suggested: Sell CCs for $1,000 strike in December 2022, and then roll them to 2024 (buy to close the old ones, sell to open the new ones) when the SP is higher and you will get a lot more premium.

I guess the downside is holding the shares all those months, and possibly 12-24 months, once they're passed the $1,000 SP and now all that time they're "weighing" on my margin equity balance until exp. or they get exercised, which can be longer than if I've just waited it out myself and sold once it hit $1,000sp.
The shares have value, so as the SP rises they will weigh less on you margin equity. That being said, you are still using some of your margin to own them that is preventing you from doing other things with the margin (which could be a good thing.... LOL).

When you look at your balances, how much are you paying per day/week in interest right now for those shares? I'm curious to see if you can make enough to cover it with 20% OTM weekly CCs for now....
 
Wait a minute. If he bought 400 shares at 1,000, and sells them now at 720, the loss is $112,000, not 43k. I can't remember if they were all bought on margin. If so, he would still have a loan and no shares. Really hard to make back $112k selling a couple safe Puts/week on margin, and you can make the situation worse.
Yeah, Monseyguy wrote that 43k loss figure, not sure how he had come by it..

Also, these 400 TSLA shares, out of 1,350 long, are day-trading shares I got stuck with in April once the market began to drop. My plan is as soon as they get to b/e, i.e., share price around $985, to cut them loose anyway (my cost basis for them is around $988).
If I liquidate them today I'd take a loss of $43k.
 
Another decent week, especially nice after being a little bit steamrolled the previous week. Last Friday, I was forced to sell some shares at ~$750 in order to roll ITM CCs to this week and farther out. Last Thursday, I had closed -c730s for about 85% profit, but then resold -c735s a few hours later for a net credit, figuring that they were “safer.” Then Friday happened. Oops. Roll for credit.

This week I was able to close out many of the CCs and buyback 2x the number of shares (at less than $700!)🥳 Undaunted by last week’s Thursday debacle, I repeated the Thursday timing day trading CCs, but this time closed out Fri for pennies.:cool:

I still have some 7/29 -c750s, but paired with -p750s, so able to roll the straddle if earnings blows the SP. Unfortunately, in one account my 9/16 -p1000s, rolled from January, have very little time value left and not enough cash or CC sales to buyback/roll. If we don’t have a SP spike soon, it will require a phone call to do the brokerage-assisted roll. This is the big problem with DITM options, little to no strike improvement on rolling and little to no premiums for selling the other side of the straddle. Oh well, everything is cash/share secured so no margin or spread leverage, so it will all work out eventually.

This weekend’s charting exercise includes a little review of Friday’s manipulations, which are clearly obvious when looking at the volume, SP and whether the SP changed quickly or was delayed minutes. Broad buying or selling by multiple accounts usually requires several minutes of sustained direction. Large trading volumes usually occur at round numbers (700, 720, 750, etc), where there are a significant number of orders built up over days or weeks. When the line is crossed, then the dam floodgates open and the SP changes rapidly until the order imbalance is rectified. Friday had lots of anomalous behavior, large volume spikes (at non-round SP) that didn’t change the SP, small volumes push down/ups that did, etc. Obviously MMs/Hedgies on either side of the 715 MaxPain trying to protect positions.

FDC9731F-C29C-4987-BE08-303E2FCAB570.jpeg


Note especially the 420k min trading at 15:15 that didn’t impact the SP until 2-3 min later, followed by the 65k at 15:30 that did. Finally, what effect will the last 5 min run over 720 mean for next week?

4229B332-58EF-4B3E-8036-AB8150433697.jpeg

The 319k trades at 12:35 didn’t impact SP and was $715.25-$715.75. Furthermore, the SP had already traded through that range just minutes earlier, so someone must have just initiated the order, otherwise the volume would have been larger earlier (both on buy and sell sides, so the order book must have been “empty”). The 345k trade at 12:45 is more “normal, with immediate increases in SP. However, again, it must have been a buy order, otherwise it would have sold 3-4 min earlier at a higher price. Interesting trading.

Finally, here’s the last few weeks range. Volatility (historical) is coming down, so selling options is getting less profitable. MaxPain is showing numbers dropping into the 60s for future weeks, and we’ve been in the 70s recently. Obviously, we should expect an IV spike Monday-Wednesday, and a drop on Thursday. However, which way will it go? Should we be on the put or call selling side? I don’t know, but I’m hoping for a stable 700-750 SP and large IV drop. I’m short too many short term CCs and not enough free cash or short term puts for balance. I do have a few unencumbered lots and might sell CCs on the Wednesday spike, but still undecided. The last few rising days (macro and AAPL) make the next few days very uncertain. Be careful out there, hedge your trades, or be ready for an explosive change.
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Wait a minute. If he bought 400 shares at 1,000, and sells them now at 720, the loss is $112,000, not 43k. I can't remember if they were all bought on margin. If so, he would still have a loan and no shares. Really hard to make back $112k selling a couple safe Puts/week on margin, and you can make the situation worse.

Selling CC against your shares is the only safe option that won't get you into more margin trouble if the SP drops more.

Hi Doc and Samppa,

I arrived at $43k loss by adding up the total loss by lot, using shares I bought as the share prices was falling (see screenshot):

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On one hand I really would like to hold onto all the 1,350 shares because it lowers the overall costs per share and the gains will be higher as the SP rises. But I can cut some of them loose this week (or next pop) to lower the margin balance. Though, I realize now I made a mistaken calculation, 350 shares x $720 @ current sp=$252k (not $350k thinking $1,000sp), so I'll have to cut loose another 100, for a total of ~$70k loss.

Leaning toward the following plan:
1) Asking TD to lower the interest rate from 9% to 4.080% to match or beat IBKR (anyone have success with this?)
2) Injecting some cash as it becomes available to lower margin loan
3) Maybe selling a few recent lower CB shares as the SP rises to reduce margin balance some more.
4) Learning about and then selling several weekly CC's, and use the $$ to cover interest fees and reduce margin balance some more
5) Scalping 50-100 shares carefully daily as TSLA fluctuates up and down, to cover interest fees and reduce margin balance some more (scalped about $2.5k last month).

This way I get to ultimately keep all the shares long.

--

Re your question about daily interest, at the current 9% it's $92.69/day; $2,780/mo; $33,832/year. BTW I got the figures off a sweet python-based app my 15 year-old son coded for me to monitor TSLA live (see screenshot). It sits in the lower right corner of my desktop and lets me keep an eye on the big picture, the numbers are dynamic to the live trading figures (uses Yahoo's API I think). The fields on the bottom three lines accept any numbers I put there and shows the results in the last column.

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