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Semi viability
- Thread starter Suns_PSD
- Start date
The trucks will have to travel a lot slower than they do now. If you don't keep contact with the gantry you will get arcing which is bad for the equipment and may affect the performance of the truck. Then you have weather. Ice and Snow will affect charging with the gantry and the Ice and Snow may block the equipment on the truck from connecting to the gantry. The issues affecting train overhead charging will most likely also be an issue with overhead semi charging. Such as wind deflection and corrosion. The ganteries will have higher maintenance costs. Who would be in charge of maintaining the gantries the state or the power companies?
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
The Thalys travels 190mph... why would trucks not be able to drive at their current speed? What issues affecting trains? It seems to work fine with trains. I would expect this would be maintained by the DOT like roads.
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- Arcs happen roughly equally on all trains, it's more of a maintenance cost trade-off. Low-speed overhead lines are usually in a much worse shape (so there are arcs even at lower speeds), but they don't require to be readjusted every couple of years like high-speed lines do. Of course, if you go at 300 kph on a low-speed line, you'll have an arc almost non-stop (that is, until your pantograph melts).
– Dmitry Grigoryev
Jun 7 '17 at 16:41
7 Answers
ActiveOldestScore18
Several factors influence this:
- at high speed, there's a higher chance of the pantograph losing contact with the catenary wire: at higher speed, bumps in the wire cause a more violent excursion that can exceed the capability of the suspension of the pantograph.
- Low-speed trains can show arcing too.
- high-speed trains often use high voltage (15 or 25 kV), which is capable of arcing across longer distances than the lower voltage (e.g. 1500 V) used in older trains.
The catenary wire isn't stationary: it gets moved around by trains and by the wind.
Germany is trialling a new highway that uses overhead electrified cabling to recharge the batteries in hybrid vehicles as they drive, reports Business Insider. The Siemens-developed eHighway is designed to work with a custom Scania hybrid truck developed by VW Group. Germany’s pilot of the technology is currently operational on a six-mile stretch of autobahn near Frankfurt and is set to run until 2022, after which it could be expanded more broadly across the country.
The eHighway works by delivering 670 volts of DC power to a truck’s “pantographs” or conductor rods. The system only works at speeds of less than 56 mph,
The eHighway works by delivering 670 volts of DC power to a truck’s “pantographs” or conductor rods. The system only works at speeds of less than 56 mph,
OP has a point. Most trucks are purchased for certain capabilities and total cost of ownership.
When Tesla Semi is first released, over 99% of buyers will still choose diesel. Slowly, as capabilities increase more and more routes will be able to be serviced by EVs. At a certain time Diesels will be banned in inner cities due to pollution/noise/smell. Electric trucks might be a more acceptable option. Diesels could drive the long distance route, then drop off their trailer to an EV that will drive into the city.
In our neighborhood we have chosen CNG garbage trucks. This is mostly for environmental reasons and the foul smell of diesel. We pay a small upcharge for these trucks but it increases our quality of life in Canyon Lake.
Biggest issue we see with CNG is they cost more initially, have much less range (as diesel contains more energy per gallon than CNG) fuel costs are higher. Big benefit is that maintenance costs are far less than diesel.
When Tesla Semi is first released, over 99% of buyers will still choose diesel. Slowly, as capabilities increase more and more routes will be able to be serviced by EVs. At a certain time Diesels will be banned in inner cities due to pollution/noise/smell. Electric trucks might be a more acceptable option. Diesels could drive the long distance route, then drop off their trailer to an EV that will drive into the city.
In our neighborhood we have chosen CNG garbage trucks. This is mostly for environmental reasons and the foul smell of diesel. We pay a small upcharge for these trucks but it increases our quality of life in Canyon Lake.
Biggest issue we see with CNG is they cost more initially, have much less range (as diesel contains more energy per gallon than CNG) fuel costs are higher. Big benefit is that maintenance costs are far less than diesel.
I'm certainly not attempting to spread false info. That number came from a google search. Googling again I get a slightly lower number. If you have another source that you feel is more accurate, please post it.
Battery vs. diesel: Why we need both | CK Power
It’s the debate of the hour: Diesel or battery power? Here’s an honest answer. They’re two vastly different power sources, and there’s a time and place for each. Learn more.
"Diesel is the most efficient combustion engine fuel source, carrying 38 kilowatt hours of energy in every gallon — 27 times {more space dense than} that of lithium ion batteries" *** Worth noting here is that a diesel engine maxes out around 60% efficiency where-as an electric motor is around 85% efficient. So my napkin calculations several posts up, end up a bit off. However, the point remains, the difference is just a bit less stark.
It's my opinion that trucking isn't ready for EVs because of inadequate energy density of existing battery packs. Particularly when there is so much low hanging fruit, easy improvements to be had elsewhere.
Your point about emissions is inaccurate for a couple of reasons (as I see it):
1) The sheer amount of batteries that will need to be produced & electricity used for just a single underperforming EV Semi/ Class 8 truck is many times greater than that of a passenger vehicle. Battery degradation & replacement is going to be a much larger factor simply because of the duty cycle (i.e. refill/ recharge multiple times per day, run for 1,000,000 miles+).
2) Class 8 trucks (aka Semis, etc.) are going to have 100% clean CNG engines on 1-1-27. I'm not telling you that this will be an option, like they have been for 25+ years, I mean that diesel engines are unlikely to be able to meet the 2027 standards at all and it'll just be CNG. These engines will not be the dual fuel engines of times past that still incurred all of the diesel downfalls (primarily emissions). They will have stellar reliability (the old ones already did), be several tons lighter than EVs, cost $200K+ less to purchase, cost less to refuel & be capable of doing the job that current EVs with near term technology simply can't. Ultimately I think CNG engines will just be bridge technology, but until EVs improve energy density a LOT, CNG engines are the common sense solution.
It's not a knock against Tesla, nor Musk who is a true visionary. I've seen the actual numbers (payload loss, useable range, cost) from actual EV Class 8 trucks (not Teslas mind you) that use the same battery technology that the Tesla Semi has access to, it is totally inadequate. Like it isn't even close. Are you prepared for your waste removal bill to go up 300% (number I pulled out of my *ss) for example? What about your food, building supplies?
Not that I'm surprised that some high profile companies are giving it a shot. They are ran by human beings, often trying to make a statement, and the lowest transportation cost isn't the only consideration.
I'll be convinced, when Tesla requires Tesla Semis to be used exclusively to deliver Teslas, build their factories, deliver their parts, etc. That would be a good indicator, to me of their competitive TCO.
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JRP3
Hyperactive Member
It's false because it does not take 40.7kWh, or 38kWh, to equal 1 gallon of diesel. Internal combustion is highly inefficient and you don't get anywhere near 40kWh of energy going to the wheels. You might get 30% where and electric motor/inverter is closer to 95%. You'd get better efficiency using CNG in a combined cycle generating plant to charge an EV. Also there is no zero emission CNG engine, they still produce CO2, even if they somehow manage to not produce any other combustion byproducts. You also ignore the many leaks along the entire CNG infrastructure which release methane, a highly potent greenhouse gas.
As I said everything you've posted is wrong and has been debunked long ago.
Wow.
I was pretty sure diesel engines were not yet to 50% efficiency yet, so I Googled some for it, and I was correct. This is from an article on Cummins working on their "Super Truck" R&D program. They were barely able to get to 50% in this advanced prototype, but most trucks are about 43%.
“We learned a significant amount in the SuperTruck program,” said Wayne Eckerle, Vice President of Corporate Research & Technology for Cummins, a self-described “combustion guy.” “It gave us the chance to demonstrate the feasibility of several advanced engine technologies that we’d been working on previously and integrate them into an operating system.”
The resulting SuperTruck powertrain achieved the DOE’s target goal of a peak diesel engine system brake thermal efficiency of 50%. “That wasn’t at all easy,” he stressed, noting that “diesels today are probably 43% efficient.”
www.inverse.com
Taking Daimler trucks, for example, the phrase "isn't even close" is applicable there. Their attempts at electric semis are WAY behind Tesla. Daimler's head of trucking didn't even believe Tesla's specs, because he didn't think it was possible what they have achieved:
“If Tesla really delivers on this promise, we’ll obviously buy two trucks — one to take apart and one to test because if that happens, something has passed us by. But for now, the same laws of physics apply in Germany and in California.”
electrek.co
And yet you are very proficient at it.
You are quoting from an article from 2017. Do you realize how fast battery technology is advancing in energy density? The semis are going to be using a battery format and energy density that is still a bit out ahead of their cars that they have now, which are five years newer than that article. But in general principle, yes, of course--liquid fuel itself is always going to be much more energy dense than batteries. So now about how it's used:
Heh, this is one of the more deceitful statements of comparison I have seen in a while. You are comparing a hypothetical, on-paper, ideal highest possible value for diesel engines as a straight across equivalent comparison as if it is the same as a fairly mid to low end value of real electric motors in use today. While not being a lie, it is certainly an attempt to mislead.
I was pretty sure diesel engines were not yet to 50% efficiency yet, so I Googled some for it, and I was correct. This is from an article on Cummins working on their "Super Truck" R&D program. They were barely able to get to 50% in this advanced prototype, but most trucks are about 43%.
“We learned a significant amount in the SuperTruck program,” said Wayne Eckerle, Vice President of Corporate Research & Technology for Cummins, a self-described “combustion guy.” “It gave us the chance to demonstrate the feasibility of several advanced engine technologies that we’d been working on previously and integrate them into an operating system.”
The resulting SuperTruck powertrain achieved the DOE’s target goal of a peak diesel engine system brake thermal efficiency of 50%. “That wasn’t at all easy,” he stressed, noting that “diesels today are probably 43% efficient.”
Cummins aims to boost heavy-duty diesel efficiency to 55%
The Energy Department recently awarded Cummins, the nation’s only independent diesel engine maker, a two-year, $4.5-million grant to boost its previous mark by 5 percentage points to 55% brake thermal efficiency.
www.sae.org
Excuse me the &%#$ outta here?! Underperforming in what way? The 500-600 mile range is sufficient for some routes, probably not all yet. Not having to bog down traffic to 45 mph on those long uphills and getting to recover energy instead of wasting it on downhills are both benefits to real use. Less maintenance = less downtime = less lost revenue. That's overperforming. There are a mix of some pro and con factors. We haven't heard much specifics on the actual weight levels yet, so cargo tradeoff may come into this some--still need to see that. I'm not stating that it's flat-out better in all respects, but your absolute term "underperforming" is bias and opinion--not fact.
And again, you are stating nonsensical futuristic predictions as if they are fact. The weights are not well known yet, but probably will not be several tons difference.
Sorry, but I can't give you the benefit of the doubt on this one. It's just a straight-up "pants on fire" LIE. The Tesla semi prices are not even as high as $200K. Yet you are saying that these magical CNG semis are going to cost $200K LESS than that!! So they will have negative prices, and the companies are going to have to pay people to take them? Try again, pal.
Tesla Semi: Price, release date, and rivals for all-electric truck
Tesla plans to launch its first all-electric truck, the Semi. The new electric vehicle will continue CEO Elon Musk's goal of shifting the world to clean energy.
CNG cheaper than electricity per mile? Hmm, that may be a close one, with CNG being usually cheaper than diesel fuel. Electricity can be generated from so many sources, and solar electricity is getting SO cheap that it's getting hard for anything to compare with that. (Large volume utility electricity generation contracts are getting to less than 2 cents per kWh). But now your earlier complaints about fuel density are going to come back to bite you. CNG also can't store as much onboard, because it has low energy density versus those liquid fuels, so CNG is going to have some of those tradeoff problems with lower range, etc. Let's call it a push on this issue for now.
HA HA HA HAAA HAAAAAAAA!! Ah, no. No, you haven't. You say you have seen data from some EV trucks. OK, sure. And then you laughably state that it is the same thing Tesla is using in theirs. Haa ha! No, Tesla is developing their own custom, proprietary battery chemistry and cells and packs that other companies do not have access to.
Taking Daimler trucks, for example, the phrase "isn't even close" is applicable there. Their attempts at electric semis are WAY behind Tesla. Daimler's head of trucking didn't even believe Tesla's specs, because he didn't think it was possible what they have achieved:
“If Tesla really delivers on this promise, we’ll obviously buy two trucks — one to take apart and one to test because if that happens, something has passed us by. But for now, the same laws of physics apply in Germany and in California.”
Tesla Semi defies laws of physics and is passing us by if true, says Daimler's head of trucks
Daimler has several electric truck programs in the works and today it revealed the latest progress on the eActros heavy-duty electric trucks....
electrek.co
I see you gave yourself the out to claim you win no matter what, by saying "exclusively". Well, that obviously can't happen, because they only have a few prototypes, but their business requires hundreds of semi trucks. So no, of course they don't have enough of them to cover their entire company's trucking needs. But in the spirit of what you claimed, they have already proven that to what you asked. They have been using those prototype trucks to deliver parts back and forth between their factories in California and in Sparks, NV. And yes, they have been delivering their cars with them too. So that is the "eating your own dog food" that you claimed would convince you, but we know it won't change your mind, because you have convinced yourself that it isn't possible.
AMPd
Well-Known Member
Tesla semi is perfect for large box stores such as Walmart, their distribution centers are usually within a few hundred miles of many of their stores.
Tesla semi would start its journey from a distribution center, make its deliveries at the stores and return to the distribution center to charge up until the next shift.
Tesla semi would start its journey from a distribution center, make its deliveries at the stores and return to the distribution center to charge up until the next shift.
AMPd
Well-Known Member
Also I don’t understand people with a “all or nothing” mentality. Just because the Tesla semi doesn’t meet ALL of the trucking industries requirements, doesn’t mean it can’t handle or shouldn’t handle some.
Baby steps people! Gotta start somewhere
Baby steps people! Gotta start somewhere
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
It's always been the same anti-EV arguments, "since it can't do ___________ EV's won't work"
Wow.
And yet you are very proficient at it.
You are quoting from an article from 2017. Do you realize how fast battery technology is advancing in energy density? The semis are going to be using a battery format and energy density that is still a bit out ahead of their cars that they have now, which are five years newer than that article. But in general principle, yes, of course--liquid fuel itself is always going to be much more energy dense than batteries. So now about how it's used:
Heh, this is one of the more deceitful statements of comparison I have seen in a while. You are comparing a hypothetical, on-paper, ideal highest possible value for diesel engines as a straight across equivalent comparison as if it is the same as a fairly mid to low end value of real electric motors in use today. While not being a lie, it is certainly an attempt to mislead.
I was pretty sure diesel engines were not yet to 50% efficiency yet, so I Googled some for it, and I was correct. This is from an article on Cummins working on their "Super Truck" R&D program. They were barely able to get to 50% in this advanced prototype, but most trucks are about 43%.
“We learned a significant amount in the SuperTruck program,” said Wayne Eckerle, Vice President of Corporate Research & Technology for Cummins, a self-described “combustion guy.” “It gave us the chance to demonstrate the feasibility of several advanced engine technologies that we’d been working on previously and integrate them into an operating system.”
The resulting SuperTruck powertrain achieved the DOE’s target goal of a peak diesel engine system brake thermal efficiency of 50%. “That wasn’t at all easy,” he stressed, noting that “diesels today are probably 43% efficient.”
Cummins aims to boost heavy-duty diesel efficiency to 55%
The Energy Department recently awarded Cummins, the nation’s only independent diesel engine maker, a two-year, $4.5-million grant to boost its previous mark by 5 percentage points to 55% brake thermal efficiency.www.sae.org
Excuse me the &%#$ outta here?! Underperforming in what way? The 500-600 mile range is sufficient for some routes, probably not all yet. Not having to bog down traffic to 45 mph on those long uphills and getting to recover energy instead of wasting it on downhills are both benefits to real use. Less maintenance = less downtime = less lost revenue. That's overperforming. There are a mix of some pro and con factors. We haven't heard much specifics on the actual weight levels yet, so cargo tradeoff may come into this some--still need to see that. I'm not stating that it's flat-out better in all respects, but your absolute term "underperforming" is bias and opinion--not fact.
And again, you are stating nonsensical futuristic predictions as if they are fact. The weights are not well known yet, but probably will not be several tons difference.
Sorry, but I can't give you the benefit of the doubt on this one. It's just a straight-up "pants on fire" LIE. The Tesla semi prices are not even as high as $200K. Yet you are saying that these magical CNG semis are going to cost $200K LESS than that!! So they will have negative prices, and the companies are going to have to pay people to take them? Try again, pal.
Tesla Semi: Price, release date, and rivals for all-electric truck
Tesla plans to launch its first all-electric truck, the Semi. The new electric vehicle will continue CEO Elon Musk's goal of shifting the world to clean energy.
CNG cheaper than electricity per mile? Hmm, that may be a close one, with CNG being usually cheaper than diesel fuel. Electricity can be generated from so many sources, and solar electricity is getting SO cheap that it's getting hard for anything to compare with that. (Large volume utility electricity generation contracts are getting to less than 2 cents per kWh). But now your earlier complaints about fuel density are going to come back to bite you. CNG also can't store as much onboard, because it has low energy density versus those liquid fuels, so CNG is going to have some of those tradeoff problems with lower range, etc. Let's call it a push on this issue for now.
HA HA HA HAAA HAAAAAAAA!! Ah, no. No, you haven't. You say you have seen data from some EV trucks. OK, sure. And then you laughably state that it is the same thing Tesla is using in theirs. Haa ha! No, Tesla is developing their own custom, proprietary battery chemistry and cells and packs that other companies do not have access to.
Taking Daimler trucks, for example, the phrase "isn't even close" is applicable there. Their attempts at electric semis are WAY behind Tesla. Daimler's head of trucking didn't even believe Tesla's specs, because he didn't think it was possible what they have achieved:
“If Tesla really delivers on this promise, we’ll obviously buy two trucks — one to take apart and one to test because if that happens, something has passed us by. But for now, the same laws of physics apply in Germany and in California.”
Tesla Semi defies laws of physics and is passing us by if true, says Daimler's head of trucks
Daimler has several electric truck programs in the works and today it revealed the latest progress on the eActros heavy-duty electric trucks....
I see you gave yourself the out to claim you win no matter what, by saying "exclusively". Well, that obviously can't happen, because they only have a few prototypes, but their business requires hundreds of semi trucks. So no, of course they don't have enough of them to cover their entire company's trucking needs. But in the spirit of what you claimed, they have already proven that to what you asked. They have been using those prototype trucks to deliver parts back and forth between their factories in California and in Sparks, NV. And yes, they have been delivering their cars with them too. So that is the "eating your own dog food" that you claimed would convince you, but we know it won't change your mind, because you have convinced yourself that it isn't possible.
I sincerely hope that you are correct and that I am completely wrong.
We'll know soon enough!
~ take care
AMPd
Well-Known Member
I’m genuinely curious to see how Tesla treats it’s business customers.
Repair times?
Customer service post sale?
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
AMPd
Well-Known Member
Can they top Volvos treatment? They chartered a private jet to take our CEO and CFO to Virginia to tour the factory and introduce the new Volvo VNL truck
The local dealer sales reps would always take them out to lunch.
I personally would love a Tesla semi in our fleet to handle the local deliveries. hopefully soon.
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