Serious Issue with our 2021 Model 3 - Reported to TSB

[Sam1]

That's not correct. It's good advice to report it to the manufacturer for sure but they are not an objective party. Read the book "Unsafe at any Speed" to get an idea of why what you are saying isn't a good strategy. Also, the recent Boeing fiasco reinforces that manufacturers have too much of a financial stake to be impartial.

You're right.

A pilot should never report anything to the maintenance crew, they should just file every concern directly with the NTSB or FAA, without a mechanic looking at it first.

 

[roblab]

Since it keeps happening, why are you still turning it on? Some folks are slow learners, I guess. If my signals were giving me trouble, I'd figure out a work-around until the problem was fixed. Obviously the problem is not severe enough to worry about other than come to this forum and complain. This forum will NOT fix any problem. I think I'd call Tesla and find out when they'll have the problem taken care of.

 

[PassingLane]

You're right.

A pilot should never report anything to the maintenance crew, they should just file every concern directly with the NTSB or FAA, without a mechanic looking at it first.

I am a pilot and you’re being ridiculous.

 

[PassingLane]

Since it keeps happening, why are you still turning it on? Some folks are slow learners, I guess. If my signals were giving me trouble, I'd figure out a work-around until the problem was fixed. Obviously the problem is not severe enough to worry about other than come to this forum and complain. This forum will NOT fix any problem. I think I'd call Tesla and find out when they'll have the problem taken care of.

Are you referring to me? I’m not using it and reported it. You saying I shouldn’t bother posting here? Please explain why I’m a slow learner. If you are referring to me, did you actually read this thread?

 

[SalisburySam]

Tesla is well aware of this issue,

Perhaps, certainly they should be aware. Only communiques from Tesla have been Elon’s tweets about (a) how getting rid of radar will eliminate phantom braking (uh, no), and (b) that he’s aware. I’m not sure that his awareness constitutes awareness by Tesla...confusing I know.

…and working like crazy to get it fixed.

I’ve seen no evidence of that. Citations? I hope this is the case, but given PB has been a problem since the first Model 3’s hit the streets, phantom braking is either unsolvable, has a very low priority, or is viewed by Tesla as a non-problem given their ability to sell every car they make in advance.

Hopefully they will have a solution that only requires an OTA software download.

Most pundits agree it is a software issue, so amenable to an OTA update. If that’s not the case, or not wholly the case, then the problem goes into the unsolvable bucket for existing vehicles. I cannot for example see Tesla upgrading the sensor suite or frankly any hardware to solve phantom braking.

 

[SalisburySam]

..getting hit in the back is probably the least dangerous way to get hit.

Usually, unless you’re hit by a fully-loaded 10 cubic yard cement truck (66,000 lb), a fire truck (60,000 lb), a loaded garbage truck (72,000 lb), loaded tractor-trailer rig (80,000 lb). You get the point.….

…there are laws that make it so the person hitting you from behind is the one at fault as they are supposed to stay far enough away to react, were you to hit the brakes for whatever reason.

Yup, but possibly not helpful if you’re hit by one of the vehicles I mention above. Designating fault will be the least of your issues.

I would also argue that phantom braking is not braking "for no apparent reason". There is an apparent reason, as the AI is seeing that reason and deciding to take action.

Agreed, but I’ve had PB ”for no apparent reason” I could suss out. Four-lane divided Interstate highway, low traffic, excellent visibility, daytime, no overpasses, nothing passing me, me passing no one, no clouds, no shadows, BAM…PB event. In fact most of what I experience is exactly this. Service tickets show system is working normally. It is this lack of apparent reason and suddenness of the event that triggers extra sphincter practice.

…a fully automated and trustable system would be better.

As would plain old dumb cruise control, without the histrionics.

 

[PassingLane]

As would plain old dumb cruise control, without the histrionics.

Yes, I'd love to be able to disable the smart cruise function and just have it hold a speed.

 

[DerbyCityY]

BTW

If you reported it to Tesla, but didn't report it to the NTSB, you really didn't report it.

Agreed!
According to a Washington Post article the NHTSA had 34 complaints between last November 2021 to the middle of February and after the article they received 250 complaints in two weeks. So Tesla's public accountability started last November.

My Rant:
In our relationship with Tesla we owe it to ourselves by keeping our investment secure as well as future owners (me). Did Tesla underestimate the number or type of sensors needed for their autonomous driving or is it just the AI or both. It's not every Tesla and it varies in it's severity.
This problem could fester hurting customer satisfaction and SALES, in turn reducing the value of our investment.
Getting rid of the PR department streamlined Tesla but it did away with any customer communication. This is good when you want rumors to stoke the fires of a new plant opening but not for the possibility of a 60K car slamming on it's breaks at 70 mph with your family on board.

 

[M3BlueGeorgia]

Agreed!
According to a Washington Post article the NHTSA had 34 complaints between last November 2021 to the middle of February and after the article they received 250 complaints in two weeks. So Tesla's public accountability started last November.

My Rant:
In our relationship with Tesla we owe it to ourselves by keeping our investment secure as well as future owners (me). Did Tesla underestimate the number or type of sensors needed for their autonomous driving or is it just the AI or both. It's not every Tesla and it varies in it's severity.
This problem could fester hurting customer satisfaction and SALES, in turn reducing the value of our investment.
Getting rid of the PR department streamlined Tesla but it did away with any customer communication. This is good when you want rumors to stoke the fires of a new plant opening but not for the possibility of a 60K car slamming on it's breaks at 70 mph with your family on board.

I think that it's just not a priority for them.

IMHO Tesla are hoping that some incremental improvements will make the problem diminish to an acceptable level

 

[KLam]

I think most people do not take the "Forward Collision Warning" system into account. I think that's the main reason of PB.

I have noticed on day one "Forward Collision Warning" will come on if you follow another car and that car's brake light comes on and if you don't release you acceleration paddle immediately. This often happens at intersections when the car in front slows down to take a turn. This dinged my safe score when the car in front slows down to turn into a shopping center. From my experience my speed should be OK to miss him when my car arrive at the turn in. But not the Tesla, it sense my foot is still on the acceleration paddle!!

Also, the faster you travel, the easier is for the system to detect false distances. So I try to slow down on 2 lane highways and not use cruise control as the system don't slow down to take curves.

Another thing about overtaking on cruise control. If you are traveling at speed limit and overtake by accelerating over cruise limit (very easy as Tesla is fast!!), The system will warn that it will not brake and FCW may come on. I have that happened to me on I280 near San Francisco. Scared the hell out of me! So now I disengage AP when overtaking at speed.

 

[SalisburySam]

I think that it's just not a priority for them.

IMHO Tesla are hoping that some incremental improvements will make the problem diminish to an acceptable level

Yup. And based on results, the problem is already at an acceptable level FOR TESLA. Just us whiners who see it differently.

 

[DrChaos]

I wish Tesla had a support or PR department to take suggestions.

There is an easy product level workaround which could be programmed: autosteer without TACC.

Note what people aren't complaining about: phantom swerving. Autosteer seems to be working fine. Combine that with one-pedal manual accelerator/brake and the issue will have much less impact.

 

[ThomasZ]

There's no excuse for this. Wife and I could be seriously injured from a high speed rear-end collision or an off-road excursion if this happens on snow covered roads. Too bad about the forking of the forums. They should maybe start a forum section just for this issue.

By getting rid of radar Tesla is saying they are able to do things that can’t be done with cameras. I am sorry but they can not be trusted at the same level as radar.

My 2¢ don’t waste money of FSB on cars without radar.

Every BMW, MB & Porsche that has active Cruise control has radar so does every Tesla X & S Why?
Because radar and cameras are better than just cameras.

Elon calling Tesla the safest car letting shadows cause cars to brake without notice is complete negligence.

Everyone needs to understand that radars are able to really detect a solid object and there is no possible way a camera can ever come close to that form of reliability.

Do not think it’s horrible or smart to praise a man for developing the most popular models without radar and it’s negligence and it will hurt people.

 

[ThomasZ]

BTW

If you reported it to Tesla, but didn't report it to the NTSB, you really didn't report it.

This is the biggest problem of all the NTSB has staggering numbers that have been reported and we all know that the only less than 3% get reported to the NTSB

 

[ThomasZ]

I think most people do not take the "Forward Collision Warning" system into account. I think that's the main reason of PB.

I have noticed on day one "Forward Collision Warning" will come on if you follow another car and that car's brake light comes on and if you don't release you acceleration paddle immediately. This often happens at intersections when the car in front slows down to take a turn. This dinged my safe score when the car in front slows down to turn into a shopping center. From my experience my speed should be OK to miss him when my car arrive at the turn in. But not the Tesla, it sense my foot is still on the acceleration paddle!!

Also, the faster you travel, the easier is for the system to detect false distances. So I try to slow down on 2 lane highways and not use cruise control as the system don't slow down to take curves.

Another thing about overtaking on cruise control. If you are traveling at speed limit and overtake by accelerating over cruise limit (very easy as Tesla is fast!!), The system will warn that it will not brake and FCW may come on. I have that happened to me on I280 near San Francisco. Scared the hell out of me! So now I disengage AP when overtaking at speed.

You hit the nail on the head for the reason for Tesla FWC falling is because it dIt doesn’t use radar so it can not truly know if it system is correct or not because it’s using cameras not having radar is ridiculous. Reader can detect the density of objects determined if it is something hard like a human body, wood, Steel, fiberglass, etc.


When they took the radars out of the 3 & Y vehicles in my opinion they really lost a lot of credibility.

 

[Yelobird]

You hit the nail on the head for the reason for Tesla FWC falling is because it dIt doesn’t use radar so it can not truly know if it system is correct or not because it’s using cameras not having radar is ridiculous. Reader can detect the density of objects determined if it is something hard like a human body, wood, Steel, fiberglass, etc.


When they took the radars out of the 3 & Y vehicles in my opinion they really lost a lot of credibility.

Yet many don’t have the issue or greatly reduced after a software update so your theory pitch is all but hot air.