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Seriously Considering Going Back to ICE

Discussion in 'The UK and Ireland' started by CaptainTom, Jan 24, 2020.

  1. CaptainTom

    CaptainTom Member

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    I've owned a 2017 X90D since May of 2019. I bought it on 35k miles, it's now on about 41k.



    There is lots about the car I love. Free unlimited supercharging and being able to charge the car at home for next to no money is fantastic. I think I'm probably saving between £3-5k a year on running costs (fuel, London congestion charge, ULEZ, road tax). It's also a nice car to sit on the motorway in and the space inside is great. I also like that I'm no longer locally polluting and fully believe that electric is the future (I have a business converting classic cars to electric).



    I guess, all that being said, several experiences I've had with the Tesla recently make me worry about how feasible they are for most people.



    Yesterday is a good example. I left the house charged to 90%, which should give me 213 miles (not the 230 miles it was advertised to be which is an issue, I think)



    I drove 122 miles to Bristol (not in rush hour) to visit family. Quite a lot of the journey was through an average speed check (maybe 1/3rd) so I was limited to 50mph or so and when not restricted I drove at between 70-80mph (some on autopilot). When I arrived in Bristol the range was displayed as 38 miles range. Now, 213-122 is 91 so I'm missing around 50 miles of range or around 24% of the total battery capacity. This seemed excessive to me. I should have had around 91 miles of range left. I would have been happy with 60 as that would have gotten me back to a supercharger en route back to London the next day. I left the car parked with Sentry mode automatically turned off due to low battery. I checked the range on my phone an hour later and it had further dropped to just 25 miles. I'm now missing 66 miles of range and was a bit worried about if I would be able to get to the closer Cribbs Causeway supercharger in the morning if the range keeps dropping. So I offered to go and do a food shop and go to Cribbs Causeway to charge the car.



    Cribbs Causeway is a charger I've had issues with in the past. I've had issues with low peak charging rates at lots of superchargers but this one takes the biscuit. The first time I went there, I peaked at 19kW charge rate. The second time I went there I couldn't charge because someone had parked a Model X in one of the bays without charging. It was a week before xmas and very busy so there was a queue of around 5 cars waiting to use the one bay. The parked model X was still there when I left a few hours later. I had plugged my car into one of the 3 pin plugs next to the chargers and just about had enough range to continue my journey. I raised this with the Tesla store inside the shopping mall who said there was nothing they could do (this sort of teflon shoulder shrugging/lack of ownership just generally annoys me). I drove there yesterday with 25 miles left on the car. It's a 6 mile journey but when I got to the charger I was down to 5 miles range. Pretty nervy stuff. I had to wait for about 15 mins and then both chargers freed up at the same time. I plugged the car in for about an hour, peaked at 79kW and got 160 miles range on the clock. Tesla advertises those chargers as 120kW. If you read all the reviews on the various apps, it sounds like 80kW is the highest anyone has seen. Annoying and misleading. Managing expectations is so much easier than sowing resentment. The car was down to 140 miles range after the 6 mile drive back to the house. It's now on 142 miles. Huh?



    The drive to Bristol was also demonstrative of some other issues with the car. To me, right now, Autopilot on my car is basically unusable at speeds above 50mph. The lane changes are nerve wracking. It's reasonably common for the car to get spooked by something imaginary halfway through a lane change, abort it, then abruptly swerve back into the original lane. Anyone that was asleep in the car is now awake and screaming. The way it changes lane is deeply unnerving. The first thing the car does when you initiate the lane change is to reduce acceleration enough for regen to kick in and hesitate. So, you are merging into an overtaking lane with faster moving traffic and the first thing the car does is slow down. This seems so fundamentally wrong to me and the exact opposite of what should occur in order to smoothly merge into traffic. It makes you feel vulnerable to approaching traffic from behind and certainly doesn't make you feel 'relaxed and refreshed' at the end of a journey. I think the mental taxation of getting the car to change lane also means I do it less, which encourages middle lane hogging.



    The car ping pongs from side to side within the lane and, when stable, prefers to be on the left of the lane so that the driver is in the middle of the lane. This makes passes feel much too close and just feels like it's reducing the margin for error on the part of other road users. I've also experienced other common issues discussed on this forum, such as phantom braking and late braking behind slowing traffic. The self parking feature does not work in the tight spaces of London and if you did try to use it, I think you'd be putting a new set of tyres on every few months due to the amount of dry steering.



    I wont go too much into build quality but suffice to say all the seats in my car rock back and forth. They are repairing two and replacing one. The whole heating system had to be replaced and most of the cameras have water ingress so will need to be replaced. There are other issues too.



    I just inquired about purchasing an extended warranty only to be told that Tesla no longer sells them in the UK, so I'll have to go third party. That pretty much tells me what I need to know about how expensive these cars would be to maintain personally out of warranty.



    This is a big rant and I apologise for that. I think I'm mostly annoyed because I want this car to be great, but it is not. It is good-ish. I think a lot of issues are just a result of Tesla not managing expectations and promising the world (FSD anyone?) which is something they hopefully grow out of.



    The stories I've told here seem to happen in different variations on most journeys. Don't even get me started on the charging network outside of Tesla Superchargers.



    I am just wondering if it would be less faff to swap it for a Mercedes E63 or a Range Rover. Has anyone else had similar thoughts?
     
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  2. linux-works

    linux-works Active Member

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    I'm a little concerned about the long-term viability of these cars. so much has to be worked out, still.

    warranty is 4 years. I'm not sure it will make sense for me to keep a car like this beyond warranty.

    over time, things will get better, but its still a very young company and they need more experience building cars.

    I had my last car 16 years but I'm quite sure my current m3 will be sold or traded around the time warranty ends.
     
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  3. Nogasmn

    Nogasmn Member

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    One of the first few questions I ask people that inquire about buying a Tesla is, How long is your commute and how much do you drive in the winter? Most people don't know how cold weather affects battery packs and the estimated range. Since I am in a location where it gets VERY cold during winter the answers matter a lot. It sounds like your number one issue is estimated range during winter. How do you solve it and still remain a Tesla owner? A bigger battery pack. It sucks but it is what it is. I would never go back to an ICE, especially a Range Rover, as my daily but my commute is only a few miles and we have a minivan for longer drives.

    Edit: my only requirement when I started to look for a new car was the ability to warm up the cabin remotely. The model 3 fit the bill very well and I would never have to pump gas, what a bonus!
     
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  4. Roy W.

    Roy W. Battery running low...

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    You need to do whatever works for you.

    I don’t know if you’ve had a Range Rover before, but a close friend of mine had an £80k whizz-bang RR and had no end of trouble. It even leaked oil which wrecked his drive. He was so glad to hand it back at the end of the PCP.
     
  5. davidmc

    davidmc Active Member

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    Agree with Roy. Our 2 directors had top of the line Range Rovers and handed them back as they were terrible (Build and everything). Also they were in the garage a lot getting fixed.

    They replaced them with the Hybrid Range Rovers :rolleyes: (They still complain about these)
     
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  6. gavine

    gavine Petrol Head turned EV Enthusiast

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    The heater uses a lot of power, especially if you don't use auto mode where it will use recirc to reheat the same cabin air instead of outside air and it will cycle the AC to avoid foggy windows. When range is especially important on a given drive, it's best to use the seat heaters as they use about 50w instead of 4000-6000w like the cabin heater. Or use both and set the cabin temp less high. It's a minor inconvenience that really helps a lot with the range on very cold days.
     
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  7. DJP31

    DJP31 Active Member

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    You’ve mentioned plenty there and a couple of observations from me, particularly about your journey. Personally, coming from London I would have stopped at Membury West on the way The battery would be nice and warm so you’d get a much higher charge rate than from a colder battery, which you will have had at Cribbs. A quick pit stop and you’d have had more than enough to get to Bristol and back to Membury East on the way home.

    I would never have a two bay charger in a busy shopping centre in my plans unless unavoidable.

    It’s a ‘hot topic’ but I also always have the battery percentage selected rather than miles. The mileage displayed is very misleading and adds to range anxiety- as you experienced. I would use the energy graph during the trip to see how I was doing and plan around that. When range doesn’t matter, i.e. most of the time, when viewing the battery display in the binnacle I convert 1% to 2 miles.

    I approach using AP as a continuing beta test and, for me, it works well but auto lane changing in anything other than moderate/light traffic is still problematic.

    After 40k miles in 3 years I wouldn’t even consider going back to ICE, and although I’ve approached my longer motorway journeys differently I’ve found the experience much less stressful than I thought.
     
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  8. MrAliG

    MrAliG Member

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    Only you know your journey pattern and what works for you.

    I have an X 75D but never make long trips. In winter I pretty much would assume that I would lose 25-30% of the range and your trip seems to be in line with that. I don't know if you did this, but preheating the battery and the car whilst plugged in at home would have helped a bit as this is what initially kills your range in winter.

    If when you came to replace it you got a new Model X LR then the extra range will help a lot and charging should also be a lot faster. Again my 75D is pretty slow to charge, but in my case it doesn't matter. It would be very annoying with a lot of long trips as it needs charging closer to 100% due to lack of range. Of course if that supercharger is down on power then this won't help and I don't know what to do about idiotic parking either.

    I did not know about the lack of extended warranties, I for the first time ever bought mine on a PCP as I felt that there was a big risk that technological advances killed the value of the car in the next 4 years and I would rather that someone else took the risk. Also when I took it out at 1.9% I wasn't paying much for the finance anyway.

    Historically I have usually kept cars for 3-4 years and swapped out just after the warranty ran out. My last 3 cars were a RR Sport and 2 X5s before that. On the second X5 I kept it 6 years to see how it worked out. I did buy a third party warranty. I think one small thing went wrong that of course wasn't covered - water ingress broke a rear LED light. Anyway what I found was that in a car that depreciates pretty slowly and is worth around 50% of the original price at 4 years old the depreciation past 4 years is not much better than in the first 4 years. So You maybe pay £70k and see around £8k a year depreciation for the first 4 years. So then you have a car worth £38k. These are almost the exact figures for the RR Sport I had. The trouble is, that an expensive to fix complicated 4+ year old car becomes increasingly risky to own. So it might lose £6k a year in the next 2 years. Effectively cars are almost worthless after 10 years due to possible large repair bills. So you still have to get from £38k to say £10k in 6 years.

    My conclusion was that owning a car past 4 years, my yearly depreciation dropped by around 25%, but in exchange I was driving a much older car, having to pay for a warranty and worry about problems and having the nuisance and worry of getting an MOT every year. It just didn't seem worth it, so that experiment is over and I am back to owning a car for the length of the warranty. I would not own a Model X past the warranty period if I could get a good used value for it.

    The maths here do not work in all cases, if you bought a car with very heavy depreciation I would ideally buy it after a year and it would have a much flatter depreciation curve after that. If you buy a cheaper simpler car it may also make sense to keep it, my brother's VW Polo has little in the way of electronics and is ticking along nicely. I personally would not pay £45-50k at a dealer for a 4 year old car that was originally £70-80k, I think the risk way outweighs the modest saving in terms of yearly depreciation. In fact with the kind of discounts you can get on some new cars they are barely more expensive than 2 year old models at a dealer.

    I don't know if some of the issues you have are due to having one of the earlier 90Ds. I have had only a few minor issues. I think the more recent cars are somewhat better built and more reliable. I must say though my RR Sport was very nice to drive and equally reliable despite my trepidation about the brand.

    I would really struggle to go back to a non electric car now, they are just not as nice to drive. I also think the Model X is considerably more practical, it kills a RR Sport and RR for storage space, but it is not as nice inside. I test drove a RR, I love the interior, but hated driving it, it was like driving a boat. I would say a Q7 is closest to driving a Model X as it is very very refined and roughly as spacious, but again nothing beats that electric surge of power, an SQ7 may come close. I also test drove an XC90 which felt cheap inside and had a rough 4 cylinder engine. Really though I have found that every car I have had has been an obvious advance on the previous model and I would feel like I was taking a step backwards now.

    What is your actual mix of trips? If it is mainly short trips with the odd long trip an EV should work well, I almost exclusively drive in town, a more random mix of long trips might argue for a plug in hybrid and mainly long trips (200 miles+) might argue for a diesel. A lot depends on your tolerance for charging up on the road. I also think thought that the new LR model with 300ish miles of range is a lot more practical if you do a lot of longer trips and might help a lot.
     
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  9. gangzoom

    gangzoom Member

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    #9 gangzoom, Jan 24, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
    Coming up to 45k in a 75D X, having taken it to France, and plenty of long trips I recognise the reliability issues but not the ownership experience. You have to pay me to go back to a petrol car, and even than I would just sell it and get another X.

    But life is too short to waste on a car you don't enjoy. It doesn't matter what any of us say, because your own experience is what matters.

    If I was in your situation I would get rid and buy something you enjoy.
     
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  10. gavine

    gavine Petrol Head turned EV Enthusiast

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    A short pit-stop halfway on a long journey in the winter is a good idea and not all that inconvenient in the grand scheme of things. Like mentioned above, the battery will already be warm and will charge much faster (especially if you navigate to the charger). OP could have really helped their situation with a ten minute top-up at a supercharger.
     
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  11. ewoodrick

    ewoodrick Well-Known Member

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    Sorry to hear about your disappointment. For some people an EV is just not an answer.

    But a few points....
    • In cooler weather, you can expect 30% loss in range, that's just the way batteries work.
    • For lane changes, have you tried with the later versions of software? While there was some issue on earlier versions, this seems to have been significantly improved since December.
    • For merges, indeed the car does slow down, not my preference either, it's just the way it is. This may be changed in the future.
    • Some cars indeed of reported ping-ponging on the roads, no specific information that I know of
     
  12. Uncle Paul

    Uncle Paul Well-Known Member

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    Buying the largest Tesla, with the smallest battery, then driving 80 MPH in the Winter, skipping convenient Superchargers, then complaining about range is perhaps not being fair.

    Owners need to make some intelligent choices when buying and again when driving long distances in Electric Vehicles.

    Same with Petrol vehicles. If your trip computer says you have 300 miles of range, and you notice that due to driving conditions you are getting worse mileage than originally predicted, you will need to stop along the way to get some additional gasoline pumped into your tank.

    All gas and electric vehicles may display miles to empty, but that is just an estimate...not a promise. They ALL have an *, YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary)

    The alternative suggestion to get a Range Rover is perhaps the one that gets the worst gas mileage at higher speeds, has the worst reputation for reliability and some of the quickest depreciation of all vehicles.
     
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  13. jsteele

    jsteele Member

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    I've found especially for longer journeys its better not to really look at how many miles you 'should' be getting at all, and to instead just use the car sat nav or a better route planner for planning. I've found them to be very accurate, with the car being slightly more conservative and a better route planner pretty much bang on. Removes any disappointment or surprises regarding range in cold weather!
     
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  14. Spacep0d

    Spacep0d Member

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    I think some of this has to do with relying too much on your range (and betting a huge inconvenience that things will work out if you charge when you want). Rather, I would charge earlier and more often, especially in cold weather. With an ICE vehicle, we're used to filling up near the end of a tank of fuel, and there are enough gas stations along well-traveled routes to keep this a no-brainer. Most of us have our favorite stations we use(d) for this purpose, and gas usage is pretty consistent unless we're driving especially fast.

    I owned a 2018 LEAF with only 151 miles range and I had a 60 mi. round-trip commute for a while. I almost got caught with my electrical pants down when I was first commuting because I waited too long to charge. I adjusted my charge habits to either keep my car charged at home (trickle charging only) or hit a supercharger the night before. Then, I was okay. But, I was also still working out charge locations then and one of them was a nightmare that ended up not being a viable spot (super tight parking garage with very tight paved curbed turns and me not knowing the dimensions of my car well yet).

    Anyway, I think this is easily solved if you just charge more often on long trips, especially when it's cold. It's too bad you don't have full range, but I'm guessing you can chalk this up to the number of cycles the battery has been through or natural degradation of range. I suppose that this is another reason to buy a new EV over one that has been used and with unknown charge methods.
     
  15. CaptainTom

    CaptainTom Member

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    Yeah, I suppose my other option is an X with a bigger battery pack and newer self driving tech. Starts to get incredibly expensive for marginal gains in improvement though.
     
  16. Spacep0d

    Spacep0d Member

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    I think this will be the nature of EVs for a while. Battery tech will continue to improve, but in the meantime your best bet is the biggest battery/range you can get, buying new where you control best-practices for charging whilst enjoying the battery's best performance, and see what happens over the years with respect to trade-ins and upgrades. A lot of people here seem to have been through several Teslas if they were early adopters. :D
     
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  17. CaptainTom

    CaptainTom Member

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    I'll try this tomorrow and see how it affects the range. Thanks.
     
  18. CaptainTom

    CaptainTom Member

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    I did actually ask Tesla to look at my battery pack to see how it was doing. They said it was performing 2.9 percent better than the average for that model and year. I assume they wouldn't make that up and it seems consistent with a few of the degradation threads on here. I might start looking for a sensibly priced 100d and make the switch.
     
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  19. M3BlueGeorgia

    M3BlueGeorgia Active Member

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    The rated range in Europe is based on the optimistic WLTP standard, which every manufacturer has to use.

    Its OK to use to compare different BEVs but pretty damn worthless when it comes to estimating your real life range.

    So recommendations:
    1) Switch your battery display from distance to percentage.
    2) Use the Navigator, and use the expected arrival percentage to help you judge whether or not to supercharge
    3) Charge to 90% and try not to go below 15%

    For trip planning, use abetterrouteplanner.com
     
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  20. CaptainTom

    CaptainTom Member

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    I've had a few and I suppose it is partly the devil you know. If you are mechanically minded enough to spot issues before they become problems, and stick to the maintenance schedules, I don't think Range Rovers are any worse than any other brand I've owned.
     
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