Seriously Considering Going Back to ICE

[NewbieT]

Switch the gauge to % (fact) rather than miles (guess) and you’ll be a happier bunny

Makes no difference to range anxiety. Changing the display won’t increase the range of your car or create a charge point when you need one. If you don’t have the comfort margin for the route you’ll be stressed regardless.

 

[MaDProFF]

The Real Problem about Ev's is Range, Switching to miles or percent makes no difference, Range that you think you should get and they really fall so short of it, but that is not the actual problem, it is the lack of easy convenient charging on the road.

I bought my 3 on range I thought I would get in the real world, and still it falls short, but not short enough for it to effect me, well so far on a day to day basis, that is the most important buying point of any EV today, in time it will become better, but tbh it will get far worse in the near future.

I really think it will be a few years before any other Car Manufacturer will have a car in the market to compete with Tesla for EVs, at the same time I will give Tesla 2/3 years to sort out their act, to produce a car that is far better built with far better quality control, better customer service etc. other wise they will hit quite a downhill spiral from people like me.

Going back to an ICE after driving am EV is hard hitting but mostly in cost wise to run, I drove my Van the other day for the first time in 6 weeks V6 3.0 Vito sport, around trip of about 100 miles, and TBH I enjoyed it, still nice to get back in the 3P after though.

It is a Tough Call for the OP, but I think there will be some 250/300 mile real world range Teslas in the next year or so, I mean real world too, none of this plodding along at 60 MPH.


Good Luck with your decision, tough call.

 

[DJP31]

Makes no difference to range anxiety. Changing the display won’t increase the range of your car or create a charge point when you need one. If you don’t have the comfort margin for the route you’ll be stressed regardless.

It does increase range anxiety because it creates a false impression of the range of the car, exactly as the OP reported.

Clearly switching to percentage in the binnacle display doesn’t alter the range but removes a false indicator. On journeys where range is challenged using the energy graph is the best indicator of true range based on recent driving history.

 

[CertLive]

Interesting read to think longer term. After driving EV,s I could not go back to ICE cars. When my eniro failed me and I had to drive from south to north of france in a diesel suv and hated every moment of it. Under powered for overtakes, noise, the smell at the stations to refuel was nothing I missed. Out of what we have now I wouldn't choose anything else than a Tesla. Competition is not there yet at all. When it comes to maintenance costs well still in the cant answer until years of ownership. While under warranty its always peaceful and I feel the availability of parts in 4 years will dictate peoples prices along the line. My model 3 is doing expected miles and so far even happy with the winter range. Pending on if I have to get another car.... it would 99% be a Tesla again. But it would be out of last resort I ever drive an ICE again.

 

[gangzoom]

On journeys where range is challenged using the energy graph is the best indicator of true range based on recent driving history.

I might be missing something but the last time I checked doing a 120 mile trip on the M4 corridor with up to 6 SuperCharger site wouldn't be considered anything close to 'challenging'.

Even with no destination charging a 60D X can manage the return trip at 5 degrees with a fairly short stop each way.

Or you could go and spend £50k upgrading to a LR Raven X and cut that down to one stop, but it still a stop.

But no EV is ever going to be as easy as a combustion car interms of thinking about range/charging/weather, not until we actually see true next gen battery tech.

If the OP wants the same experience as a combustion car than the easiest option is to get a combustion car.

 

[boywonder]

I also like that I'm no longer locally polluting and fully believe that electric is the future (I have a business converting classic cars to electric)

I agree with most of the previous replies that a little more planning and allowing for cold/rain/wind would mitigate your range concerns.

I was a little surprised that someone working on EV conversions would not be aware of these EV perculiarities.

You are also right to be concerned about a Tesla vehicle’s longevity.

This 10k+ thread Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software details major problems with Tesla batteries and/or BMS, and how Tesla appears to be doing its utmost to avoid fixing the problem (under warranty) to their customers’ satisfaction despite the battery warranty assurances Elon gave early on.

I think leasing rather than buying makes a lot of sense especially as they keep experimenting and pushing the envelope.

 

[DJP31]

I might be missing something but the last time I checked doing a 120 mile trip on the M4 corridor with up to 6 SuperCharger site wouldn't be considered anything close to 'challenging'.

I agree, I wasn’t replying to the OP I was replying to @NewbieT.

 

[CaptainTom]

I might be missing something but the last time I checked doing a 120 mile trip on the M4 corridor with up to 6 SuperCharger site wouldn't be considered anything close to 'challenging'.

Even with no destination charging a 60D X can manage the return trip at 5 degrees with a fairly short stop each way.

Or you could go and spend £50k upgrading to a LR Raven X and cut that down to one stop, but it still a stop.

But no EV is ever going to be as easy as a combustion car interms of thinking about range/charging/weather, not until we actually see true next gen battery tech.

If the OP wants the same experience as a combustion car than the easiest option is to get a combustion car.

Your second image is exactly what I had planned to do. But I got to Bristol with only 25 miles left or 16% ish. You're right, I could and should have stopped for a charge on the way down, but by the time I passed Membury services it was a margin call. It's just frustrating, as people have spotted, that a short trip to Bristol needs a lot of thought.

 

[CaptainTom]

Interesting read to think longer term. After driving EV,s I could not go back to ICE cars. When my eniro failed me and I had to drive from south to north of france in a diesel suv and hated every moment of it. Under powered for overtakes, noise, the smell at the stations to refuel was nothing I missed. Out of what we have now I wouldn't choose anything else than a Tesla. Competition is not there yet at all. When it comes to maintenance costs well still in the cant answer until years of ownership. While under warranty its always peaceful and I feel the availability of parts in 4 years will dictate peoples prices along the line. My model 3 is doing expected miles and so far even happy with the winter range. Pending on if I have to get another car.... it would 99% be a Tesla again. But it would be out of last resort I ever drive an ICE again.

I probably wouldn't replace the model X with an underpowered diesel so could avoid those issues. I have other petrol vehicles that I use occasionally but really bought the X as the road trup, comfortable motorway car and it's struggling to fulfill those duties. Maybe that's where I went wrong...

 

[CaptainTom]

The Real Problem about Ev's is Range, Switching to miles or percent makes no difference, Range that you think you should get and they really fall so short of it, but that is not the actual problem, it is the lack of easy convenient charging on the road.

I bought my 3 on range I thought I would get in the real world, and still it falls short, but not short enough for it to effect me, well so far on a day to day basis, that is the most important buying point of any EV today, in time it will become better, but tbh it will get far worse in the near future.

I really think it will be a few years before any other Car Manufacturer will have a car in the market to compete with Tesla for EVs, at the same time I will give Tesla 2/3 years to sort out their act, to produce a car that is far better built with far better quality control, better customer service etc. other wise they will hit quite a downhill spiral from people like me.

Going back to an ICE after driving am EV is hard hitting but mostly in cost wise to run, I drove my Van the other day for the first time in 6 weeks V6 3.0 Vito sport, around trip of about 100 miles, and TBH I enjoyed it, still nice to get back in the 3P after though.

It is a Tough Call for the OP, but I think there will be some 250/300 mile real world range Teslas in the next year or so, I mean real world too, none of this plodding along at 60 MPH.


Good Luck with your decision, tough call.

Yes, exactly. The real world range is a fraction of what you'd be led to believe from Tesla/Tesla diehards. I don't want to have to stick to 55mph on the motorway, it's not safe or practical.

My original buying criteria was that I can make it work if it can reliably do 200 miles. That car was supposed to be able to do 230 miles on a full charge so I read the reviews that said it could be anything from 180 to 220 depending on driving style, conditions etc which I could live with. But barely being able to do 122 miles is a bit of a joke.

 

[CaptainTom]

How about manufacturers being clearer about the capabilities and limits of a car???
I watched a heap of videos and read the manual several times and looked at SC maps etc. Still waiting on 3 promised SC sites that Tesla marked as 'by end 2018' or that Tesla woudl change what they considered warranty items, reduce customer services etc...

Exactly. It seems people are willing to defend the brand to the death (not a new phenomenon) but advertising and selling a car as having 257 miles range that can barely to 120 miles is a very real problem that I think people are entitled to feel mislead about. I'm pretty easy going and understanding when it comes to new tech but that is quite an extreme disparity. I wouldn't feel good about selling that product.

 

[CertLive]

Exactly. It seems people are willing to defend the brand to the death (not a new phenomenon) but advertising and selling a car as having 257 miles range that can barely to 120 miles is a very real problem that I think people are entitled to feel mislead about. I'm pretty easy going and understanding when it comes to new tech but that is quite an extreme disparity. I wouldn't feel good about selling that product.

You know a lot of these issues revolve around the large amount of different parameters of use. Temps in country, lead foot or eco, what you have turned on. This is my experience in my late 2019 model 3 that is rated at 240 miles. It displays when full and this is cold UK 239 miles 2-8c. Using the car without any kind of thought for eco in mind as in heat everything etc etc for all of the trip 2 people inside 23c on a drive into London. So mostly motorway at 70 and a little city driving I got 186 driven miles for the trip in my model 3 with 3% by the time I got home. Couple of overtakes, didn't always do 50 near the end like it suggested a bit half and half. The temperature outside was 4-5c. When I first got it and outside temps were 16-20c this got me about 220. This is all with driving the car not even thinking about it just enjoying the drive. Now the hot summer in a few months I do not know yet. But if you are only getting 120 out of 257 there has to be a technical problem or your are hammering it at every opportunity So not a defence this is like all the other things I post positive or negative my true experience so far.

 

[jbcarioca]

Yes, exactly. The real world range is a fraction of what you'd be led to believe from Tesla/Tesla diehards. I don't want to have to stick to 55mph on the motorway, it's not safe or practical.

My original buying criteria was that I can make it work if it can reliably do 200 miles. That car was supposed to be able to do 230 miles on a full charge so I read the reviews that said it could be anything from 180 to 220 depending on driving style, conditions etc which I could live with. But barely being able to do 122 miles is a bit of a joke.

This thread and your experience describes succinctly one of the most frustrating parts of auto usage, in my experience. I have owned several vehicles between London and Southern France. Most of my EU Tesla experience has been with Model X100. Habitually I drive too quickly, especially on motorways, generally ignoring weather. The challenges with cold weather, precipitation, winds and hilly terrain I used to ignore with ICE. The consequences on consumption were the same but I only noticed in my pocketbook.

With Tesla I have developed the habit of charging to 100% on longer trips (FWIW I did that with ICE too) and heated/cooled while on charge. Going coast-to-coast US in an S70 before Superchargers were plentiful was challenging, especially when prevailing speeds across Wyoming with rain and wind were 90-100 MPH.

The issues for me became automatic and no longer noticed after I had been driving Tesla for about three years. Before that I had regular range anxiety. I no longer notice, even in Eastern Europe.

 

[pgkevet]

Exactly. It seems people are willing to defend the brand to the death (not a new phenomenon) but advertising and selling a car as having 257 miles range that can barely to 120 miles is a very real problem that I think people are entitled to feel mislead about. I'm pretty easy going and understanding when it comes to new tech but that is quite an extreme disparity. I wouldn't feel good about selling that product.

I've had my S100D for 18mths..so 2 winters. With no regard for saving on comfort (ie whatever heat etc I want) I haven't got worse than 600wh/mile from cold on shortish journeys with reasonable hills. As any onger journey unfolds and the battery pack has fully heated and I get onto the motorway network at 75mph I still expect to better 400wh/m (barring hills).
lets do some math (aren't you all excited?)...:

90Kw charged to 90% = call it 80Kw to keep stuff simple. Losses of 10% for it's age and call it a useable 70Kw
120 mile journey with 30 miles at 600wh/m = 18KW
90 miles hammering it at 80mph call it 450wh/m = 40KW (ish)
That leaves roughly 12KW.. add some vampire overnight and a cold start @600wh/m and you have say 18 miles left

Now all those are bad to worse case figures but do show that the poster's experience is not impossible. Yes it can be mitigated by care and planning but not everyone wants to use a car like that. Preheat, charge to 100% and drive at 70mph and suddenly the range at 350wh/m on a flat road with fully functional battery is better than 250 miles.

 

[Adopado]

Exactly. It seems people are willing to defend the brand to the death (not a new phenomenon) but advertising and selling a car as having 257 miles range that can barely to 120 miles is a very real problem that I think people are entitled to feel mislead about. I'm pretty easy going and understanding when it comes to new tech but that is quite an extreme disparity. I wouldn't feel good about selling that product.

This is a particular issue because we are dealing with a range that is of borderline suitability in some instances. Of course this percentage disparity between official figures and real mileage is one that has always been present with ICE vehicles but because the tank range is so much greater you can take the hit and top up the tank without a thought. We have grown up with car petrol/diesel mileages and very few people actually check their real consumption. If a modern car claims 70mpg we take it with a pinch of salt and know that this is in test conditions and that we won't get that on the road. It gets a brief mention from time to time but "it was always thus". In fact, for my own use, I would say my EV mileage is actually closer to the claimed range than my mpg is for our ICE car (I've measured it). In the right conditions and driving carefully I can exceed the EV range prediction but even really trying I've never ever managed to hit the claimed ICE mpg.

I would agree that for an EV driver they would need to have an above average readiness to plan, and build in margins, for longer trips. Some people are up for that and some are not. It's perfectly reasonable to decide that this is something you can do without! (Motorcycle trips require similar planning ... often refuelling every 100 miles or so depending on bike and riding ... same squeaky bum moments in some areas where that petrol station you were aiming for turns out to be closed!)

 

[LukeT]

I've had my S100D for 18mths..so 2 winters. With no regard for saving on comfort (ie whatever heat etc I want) I haven't got worse than 600wh/mile from cold on shortish journeys with reasonable hills. As any onger journey unfolds and the battery pack has fully heated and I get onto the motorway network at 75mph I still expect to better 400wh/m (barring hills).
lets do some math (aren't you all excited?)...:

90Kw charged to 90% = call it 80Kw to keep stuff simple. Losses of 10% for it's age and call it a useable 70Kw
120 mile journey with 30 miles at 600wh/m = 18KW
90 miles hammering it at 80mph call it 450wh/m = 40KW (ish)
That leaves roughly 12KW.. add some vampire overnight and a cold start @600wh/m and you have say 18 miles left

Now all those are bad to worse case figures but do show that the poster's experience is not impossible. Yes it can be mitigated by care and planning but not everyone wants to use a car like that. Preheat, charge to 100% and drive at 70mph and suddenly the range at 350wh/m on a flat road with fully functional battery is better than 250 miles.

Reading this thread with interest and sorry to hear of the OP's woes.

The above numbers tally broadly with what I'd expect to experience if I really hammered our S (100) Raven in sh1tty weather. So pretty "worst case". My long term average is about 350, vast majority motorway and the like and mostly winter just because of our period of ownership so far. My long journey winter wh/mile I'd guess at not much over 400 while the OP's seems to be more like 600 if I have my maths right? Different car but an X isn't normally that much thirstier is it? I wouldn't rule out either a technical problem or the possibility of some change in how the car is used making a significant difference.

OP what Wh/mile averages are you seeing?

 

[MaDProFF]

I find it odd in my P3, I use 25% - 30% (starting on a 90% charge) range on a 60 ish mile journey, driven quite quickly, (motorway, A roads, M25 to Hackney, Very Early in the morning) but still seem to return around 300-330 wh/m, but even at that rate the figures are still no where near what you should get on a 90% range, and that is with out AC on, and 18.5ºc cabin temp.

But once again it is not how much power the car uses over a distance, it is the fact it is not easy to charge over that journey. (well on that journey no where).

 

[Glan gluaisne]

Just as @CertLive says above, there are massive range differences between different patterns of use. Lots of short trips in winter will drastically reduce range, as will travelling at motorway speeds for long periods. Do mainly longer trips on A and B roads and the range will be a great deal better (over the past few weeks I've been seeing a range of around 260 to 270 miles, for example).

It takes a fair bit of time to get used to this big variation in electric range. I was really shocked when I first bought a Prius Plug In back in 2013, as to how dire the EV range was in cold weather. Over the 5 years I owned it I just got used to it, and also adapted my driving a bit to get the most out of the EV mode range. When I bought a BMW i3 as a bit of an experiment, the wide variation in range came as no surprise, probably as I'd had five years of adapting to the quirks of electric power. I don't have the slightest bit of range anxiety with the Model 3, as I'm near-certain that its range without stopping exceeds exceeds my own range, and very definitely exceeds my wife's range...

I have found that I now dislike motorway driving, and try to avoid it if I can. The combination of much better range, plus the fact that often lesser known roads can be both quieter and more fun to drive on, means I often try to choose routes that avoid motorways if I can. Part of this is because I often have the luxury of time, though, as I've been retired for nearly ten years now, so have pretty much forgotten the time pressures imposed by having to work for a living.

 

[CaptainTom]

Reading this thread with interest and sorry to hear of the OP's woes.

The above numbers tally broadly with what I'd expect to experience if I really hammered our S (100) Raven in sh1tty weather. So pretty "worst case". My long term average is about 350, vast majority motorway and the like and mostly winter just because of our period of ownership so far. My long journey winter wh/mile I'd guess at not much over 400 while the OP's seems to be more like 600 if I have my maths right? Different car but an X isn't normally that much thirstier is it? I wouldn't rule out either a technical problem or the possibility of some change in how the car is used making a significant difference.

OP what Wh/mile averages are you seeing?

I think part of me hoped that when I posted those numbers, people's response would be 'there must be something wrong with your car'. But actually, the concensus seems to be that people would roughly expect that sort of range and have just learned to put up with it or never really considered that it's vastly different to what they were sold. I'll make a decision in the next few weeks about what I do with the car. I mostly want to keep it and make it work but I've got some big trips coming up soon, so I'll see how they go with a bit less stubbornness on my part.

What about other concerns I raised? Who can honestly say they are using autopilot on A roads or Motorways and are finding the experience less taxing than just taking the wheel?

I mean at 70mph. Autopilot is fantastic in stop start traffic.

 

[DJP31]

What about other concerns I raised? Who can honestly say they are using autopilot on A roads or Motorways and are finding the experience less taxing than just taking the wheel?

I did Surrey/SE London to Manchester and back the other week, mostly used Nav on AP and it was fine. In heavy motorway traffic the lane changing isn’t as positive as I need it to be at times. It also hasn’t mastered leaving the motorway well, and knowing its’ limitations I just engage ‘standard’ AP.

AP is designed for motorways and dual carriageways so I don’t use it on A roads. Occasionally I’ll use TACC but tbh I enjoy actually driving the car!

What journeys do you have coming up?