TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC

Seriously considering S -> 3

Discussion in 'Model S' started by TechOps, May 16, 2018.

  1. TechOps

    TechOps Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2017
    Messages:
    126
    Location:
    California
    So, My MS 75 (RWD) is less than a year old, but I'm considering going to a LR (or P, if it comes out soon) M3.

    I like the increased efficiency, newer design, lower price, and increased range (compared to my MS 75) of the 3.

    Yes, I will lose a fair bit of depreciation, as well as tax / transaction costs, by switching so soon.
    However, that is at least partially offset by the prospect of a full $7.5k tax credit, given that existing owners seem to be able to order within a month or two of deposit. And I believe that MS resale prices are majorly supported by a very constrained supply which may not still exist in a year or two.

    The one thing I will miss is the cargo space -- I'm a kitesurfer and can comfortably fit all my gear in the rear of the MS. I need to borrow my friend's M3 and see if everything will fit in there.

    I'm 75% sure I want to do this. Need to talk with my sales guy and run the numbers next.
     
    • Like x 1
  2. whitex

    whitex Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2015
    Messages:
    3,968
    Location:
    Seattle area, WA
    Breaking this down:
    1. Increased efficiency - yes, given it's a smaller, lighter car. On the flip side, load it up with 5 people and luggage and the gap lessens.
    2. Newer design - absolutely. Not sure whether that is a positive or negative, given Tesla's trademark "we'll enable it later", for example ChaDeMo adapter. Also, older is a proven design, new batteries on the 3 have no long term reliability data yet.
    3. Lower price - After add the early depreciation you're going to have to eat to the M3, the "lower price" will probably apply only when you go to sell it. "P" might be even above your trade-in value.
    4. Increased range - similar to #1, no free supercharging though so increased but more expensive travel range

    One thing you said also is confusing: you said you are considering a P but don't care about lower performance if P is not available. If you don't care about lower performance but do care (as you stated) about a lower price, go for non-P even if it does come out soon.
     
  3. GatorGuy

    GatorGuy Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2018
    Messages:
    533
    Location:
    Jacksonville
    The cargo space between the two cars is significant. The 3 is literally half the cargo room of the S. I wouldn't be surprised if it simply won't work for your needs.

    I also agree with WhiteX that a 3 -PD will likely be above your trade in value.
     
  4. iluvmacs

    iluvmacs Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2014
    Messages:
    301
    Location:
    Madison, WI
    ???
    This would be the same effect in either car, so it's a moot point.

    I would say the increased efficiency of the 3 is one of the most often overlooked advantages. So many people complain about no free Supercharging on the 3, but not many people are complaining about all home charging costing 30% more on the S. For most people, that would easily make up for the Supercharging difference.
     
    • Like x 3
    • Informative x 1
  5. f3honda4me

    f3honda4me Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2018
    Messages:
    218
    Location:
    Colgate, WI
    Model S has better motors that are more powerful and will last longer, better warranty, twice the cargo space, etc.
     
    • Like x 1
  6. tyson

    tyson Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2016
    Messages:
    288
    Location:
    NC
    You have a source to cite stating that PM motors have a shorter life than the induction motors? I know there are a lot of people on here whose DUs in their S or X didn't last 30k miles.
     
    • Like x 2
  7. dhrivnak

    dhrivnak Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2011
    Messages:
    3,569
    Location:
    NE Tennessee
    For us the 3 is easier to park easier to fit in the garage and yes the 30% improvement in efficiency is huge for us. Never have we been short on space but there is only two of us.
     
    • Like x 1
  8. f3honda4me

    f3honda4me Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2018
    Messages:
    218
    Location:
    Colgate, WI
    Google will lead you to plenty of technical and other informational results about the durability of induction motors vs permanent magnet. And many of those DU failures were part of design issues which tesla has fixed and continues to improve.
     
  9. The Duke

    The Duke Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Messages:
    459
    The P100D Model S is the Kite surfer's car. Just admit you are an adrenaline addict and revel in the thrills.

    Don't hold back.
     
    • Like x 1
    • Funny x 1
  10. whitex

    whitex Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2015
    Messages:
    3,968
    Location:
    Seattle area, WA
    I think you missed the point. If you add 1000lb. Of load to a 2000lb car, the performance and efficiency effect is much more noticeable than if you add the same 1000lb to a 4500lb car.

    Good point on every day charging cost.
     
  11. davinci2017

    davinci2017 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2017
    Messages:
    267
    Location:
    Milpitas, CA, USA
    Can someone explain the everyday charging cost bit?

    Going from an S75 to say the long range 3, how does the charging cost get lower? I am not clear on this
     
  12. masam

    masam Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Messages:
    223
    Location:
    MA
    I’m trying to understand this too. Are folks referring to increased consumption as measured by watt-hour/mile or higher charging losses for the 100D/75D for the same charging power?
     
  13. davinci2017

    davinci2017 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2017
    Messages:
    267
    Location:
    Milpitas, CA, USA
    I am quite curious on your next steps as I am in the exact same situation and like the size, driveability and range of the 3.

    I would love to have the AWD, but the math is already pretty bad without adding another 5k to the mix. Do keep us posted on the numbers if you dont mind
     
  14. Ciaopec

    Ciaopec Reservations at Restaurant at Universe end

    Joined:
    May 3, 2016
    Messages:
    460
    Location:
    Close to where SpaceXploration begins: 32952
    Have a M3 reserved but everytime I throw a bedroom set, or rocking chair, or dishwasher, or whatever in the back of the MS I cannot imagine using a M3 in its stead. Considering changing M3 deposit to new MS.
     
    • Like x 2
  15. TechOps

    TechOps Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2017
    Messages:
    126
    Location:
    California
    Thanks for the discussion, good points added by everyone. Let me add a bit more info as well:

    1 - yes, of course you're right that a smaller car is not as luxurious and comfortable for many passengers. I should state that I am single, so usually my car has max one other person with me, no kids or car seats which would strongly weigh me in favor of keeping the S.

    2 - Fair enough. I view a newer design as a positive, and like the model 3 balance of scandinavian sparse design, and American conveniences like door pockets.

    3 - I feel the depreciation of the 3 is slowed down by (1) the full tax deduction, and (2) continued constrained supply for the next year or two while they work through backorders

    4- Don't really agree on this one. I use supercharging but not that often (and it's not great for the batteries). I feel the increased efficiency in terms of Wh/mi will outweigh the cost of paying for electricity at superchargers. Plus, the M3 will have better range than my MS, so I'm likely, on average, to SC less.

    Will let you know. I have been skiing for 37 years and used to go to Tahoe on weekends. Loved the Audi quattro w/ snow tires for this purpose. But honestly, I motor around the Bay Area and kitesurf locally much more these days. If I only go up to Tahoe a few times per year, I can borrow/rent an AWD and so that doesn't really matter to me.

    The two reasons why I purchased a RWD MS were (1) felt the power in the seat of my pants better than AWD, and (2) $5k cheaper. If I cared about being in the snow that much, (2) wouldn't matter. I am not cash constrained, so this is really just an optimization question for me.

    Each person has their own situation. Luckily, I have friends with larger vehicles to borrow for these kinds of uses. This is really just about my daily driver. And I am excited about the M3 P series, whereas the MS P100D is just too expensive for me to be able to justify. But I have a feeling the M3 P will fit a sweet spot.

    Did you really fit a dishwasher in the back of your MS??? Impressive!
     
  16. masam

    masam Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Messages:
    223
    Location:
    MA
    What about a sheet of plywood :)? Thats what keeps me awake at night
    But seriously, did you actually get any of these things into the MS ? Might be the make or break answer for me
     
  17. Peteski

    Peteski Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2017
    Messages:
    2,101
    Location:
    UK, Milton Keynes
    All comes down to whether you want a big car or a more compact one. That is entirely a personal decision. M3 looks cool to me and would make a great daily driver, but too small for our family needs, which is why we have an X. Might well consider an M3 as a second car though at some point, but that will be a couple of years away at least in the UK.
     
  18. Ciaopec

    Ciaopec Reservations at Restaurant at Universe end

    Joined:
    May 3, 2016
    Messages:
    460
    Location:
    Close to where SpaceXploration begins: 32952
    A resounding YES to everything I put in that post (GE 24" stainless dishwasher-disclaimer: the hatch all remain up about 2 inches) and more!: a 16 light chandelier (unassembled), smaller chandeliers, and ceiling fans, etc. The MS is a true SUS (Sport Utility Sedan-may be a service mark of Suburu).

    P. S. Haven't measured nor tried plywood.
     
  19. iluvmacs

    iluvmacs Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2014
    Messages:
    301
    Location:
    Madison, WI
    That's true for the percentage difference, but not in terms of pure energy. It takes a fixed amount of energy to move a fixed amount of weight. Yes, it is more "noticeable", but that is really just due to perception.
     
  20. iluvmacs

    iluvmacs Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2014
    Messages:
    301
    Location:
    Madison, WI
    #20 iluvmacs, May 17, 2018
    Last edited: May 17, 2018
    Largely just because of the increased consumption of the S vs. the 3. Typical consumption in the S is 300-400 Wh/mile. Typical consumption in the 3 is 200-300 Wh/mile. So, for the same distance, you charge more Wh into the battery. As you are charged by the kWh (1000 Wh) by your utility, you will pay more (roughly 30%, as the numbers above reflect). I'm not sure if anyone has done a study yet on the charging efficiency of both vehicles, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that the 3 is better simply by the fact that it's a newer design and high efficiency of the entire car was a goal for Tesla.

    (If anyone doesn't like my consumption range estimates, please see the EPA estimates at 98-103 MPGe for the '18 Model S, and 130 MPGe for the '18 Model 3. A clear 30% improvement when compared the average Model S number.)
     

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.
  • Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


    SUPPORT TMC