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Seriously, why does Elon feel the need to lie about even short-term fsd beta timelines.

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Everybody chill out please. All I’m saying is that he could be a little more realistic with his estimations. I bought the car knowing it has software updates. This is not a competition to ice vehicles here. Chill.
I’m completely fine if they take more time between updates. In fact, do that and make each release a noticeable improvement. Just inform the 100k people that it’s gonna be a bit longer of a wait. Don’t say 2 weeks when you know it’s not.
And when you pay 12 grand for something promised. Yes actually. It does matter.
Working in IT for s couple decades now.

The developers manager will ask for. Date. Tge developers will give an optimistic date that just might be possible if all goes right.

The manager then shaves a hunk of time off and tells their manager.

Who then shaves off even more time to their management

By the time it gets to an executive the estimate is wildly off.
 
I would ask the opposite. Does it Really matter when the update comes out? It’s not like the car shut off and doesn’t run. Yet there are hundreds of posts and tweets asking “when is the next update and why is it taking so long?” My wife’s Ice car hasn’t had an update in 5 years since we bought it. Why are we So dependent on new releases?
Apples and oranges. The validity of the question in no way depends on your question, which is a wholly separate issue. Elon regularly and routinely lies/misleads/is mistaken about timelines. Why he does that is a valid line of inquiry.
 
Assumption: Elon knowingly lies on Twitter about Tesla, FSD, and hardware capabilities.
Question 1: Is what Elon says on Twitter illegal?
Question 2: If so, why haven't criminal charges been brought against him by various Attorneys General?
Question 3: If not, is what Elon says on Twitter unethical?
Question 4: If so, does that unethical behavior open Elon and/or Tesla to civil action?
Question 5: Do the answers to Question 2 and Question 4 also open Elon and/or Tesla up for regulatory sanction (such as SEC investigation on stock price manipulation)?

I'm not a lawyer, so hopefully someone on TMC has a legal background and can comment on these.
 
Like...HOW...does FSD NOT see a TRAIN COMING DIRECTLY AT YOU in broad daylight?


But Robotaxi...next year.


OK
My guess is that the camera saw it, the bag of points sent to the NNs had data on the train, but the NN, fed data from both the cameras and the maps ignored the input because the Tesla saw it was on a one-way street and wasn't configured to handle the possibility of an object approaching against the flow of traffic. I would also guess that if it were a car instead of a train, the same outcome would have occurred. This is something the FSD team will need to look at carefully and tweak the NN to handle the possibility of an object on the wrong side of the road heading towards you.
 
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wasn't configured to handle the possibility of an object approaching against the flow of traffic
LOL thats comically bad though right? Cars never reverse down a block while causing for parking, parallel parking, or having missed a turn?
For FSD to be anywhere near ready, it needs to be able to deal with anomalous events defensively rather than "probably nothing" it.
I'd have expected a confused Tesla to at the very least, worst case, pause upon seeing an object moving in its direction unexpectedly.

Making an active move - making a left turn into the train is insane.

Also going into the near crash the guy is talking about the car doing weird mis-signaling for no reason and being disappointed. Boy did he not know the disappointment waiting for him...

Also I think the correct title would be "My Tesla almost hit a train"
 
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I mean...folks..its A MASSIVE TRAIN...not a moped..or a bike (which would be bad enough)..but a TRAIN. If only the train were an overpass shadow cast on the road? Then there would at least be a 50/50 chance of braking.

So far via the vaunted self driving capabilities we've witnessed a Tesla hit an airplane and its intentions to hit..a train. It missing completely the stop signs on a schoolbus. All in daylight.

Only thing left is hitting a cruise ship.

And still, the excuses im sure would still be
"you dont understand..its a different stack, so its ok".
"well, that car probably still had radar and not the superior vision only".
"he wasn't on FSDb he was only on FSD"
"the cruise ship shouldnt have been docked where it was. was the captains fault"
 
So it gets fixed in the next update, or the one after that. FSD isn't ready yet. Every time Tesla updates the car with fixes that were discovered in previous updates, people just find something new to complain about. "But it doesn't see speedbumps!" Then it see speedbumps - "But it doesn't see potholes!!".

Yes, it didn't react to the train - it saw the train, as it was on visualizations, they just need to tweak the NN to handle it. It's why we're beta testing it. What's important is that the driver disengaged safely and pressed the report button. You know Tesla will see the Youtube videos and I'm sure there is a discussion going on right now about fixing that.

Okay - you guys can go back to "the sky is falling" now. :)
 
So it gets fixed in the next update, or the one after that. FSD isn't ready yet. Every time Tesla updates the car with fixes that were discovered in previous updates, people just find something new to complain about. "But it doesn't see speedbumps!" Then it see speedbumps - "But it doesn't see potholes!!".

Yes, it didn't react to the train - it saw the train, as it was on visualizations, they just need to tweak the NN to handle it. It's why we're beta testing it. What's important is that the driver disengaged safely and pressed the report button. You know Tesla will see the Youtube videos and I'm sure there is a discussion going on right now about fixing that.

Okay - you guys can go back to "the sky is falling" now. :)
This is insane and backwards.

Remember the saying "things that never happened before happen all the time".

The car should be able to deal with classes of problems, not seeing every specific flavor of events to learn from them
 
This is insane and backwards.

Remember the saying "things that never happened before happen all the time".

The car should be able to deal with classes of problems, not seeing every specific flavor of events to learn from them
The car should be able to drive completely safely, totally on its own with no interaction from me. I 100% agree with everyone on this point. It's just going to take time. It does something wrong - they fix it. It does something else wrong, they fix it. They try something new, and sometimes it doesn't work right, so they adjust and try it differently. You think Tesla engineers aren't going to pour over the code after seeing that video and make adjustments? It could very well be that it handled the train properly in previous updates where some features were hard-coded, but then Tesla moved those features to new neural nets and are having to adjust coding to handle situations it used to handle fine before.
 
… I think it is far too early to understand exactly what the situation is with the 4680 cells. Obviously their initial presentation on them was misleading …
And you are correct..
 

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I mean….at what point does Elon\Tesla move in the direction of giving factual/truthful product information to their customers/potential customers vs constant misleading advertising? Historically speaking, isnt it more successful long term to a business to have a leader whose word people can rely on?

Tesla already has lost the number one spot as number one EV maker..might be time for a strategy shift
 
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For me on 2 cars the wipers (in daylight) work since 22.8

Same story every time. "Works fine for me since..." and then it demonstrably doesn't. I just had mine wipe because the sun was bright. Then it started drizzling and nothing happened. It's a garbage approach and Tesla should have added actual rain sensors long ago. Same for the dreadful auto high beams. Not being able to reliably detect oncoming headlights and there's people believing they're on the cusp of solving general AI by end of year.

🤣
 
I mean...folks..its A MASSIVE TRAIN...not a moped..or a bike (which would be bad enough)..but a TRAIN. If only the train were an overpass shadow cast on the road? Then there would at least be a 50/50 chance of braking.

So far via the vaunted self driving capabilities we've witnessed a Tesla hit an airplane and its intentions to hit..a train. It missing completely the stop signs on a schoolbus. All in daylight.

Only thing left is hitting a cruise ship.
Tesla has chosen a neural network approach to its FSD functionality. This technology involves creating a network of pseudo-neurons that mimics an animal's brain and then trains the network on a series of inputs (video clips from Tesla vehicles, in this case) until it reliably produces the desired output (driving behavior, in this case). One implication of this approach is that unusual inputs (trains, airplanes on the ground, cruise ships) will likely be misinterpreted until the neural network is fed enough inputs to understand what to do when it sees them. Tesla's FSD is something like a toddler in this respect. Parents carefully watch their toddlers because they know that toddlers, not fully understanding the world, are likely to do dangerous things, like touch hot stoves or walk into the street. Once, I was walking with two of my friends and their toddler when a police car zoomed past at high speed, with flashing lights and siren. Amazed, the toddler asked "what was that?" Had we not been there, it's entirely possibly that my friends' child would have been killed by that police car. A Tesla on FSD that doesn't do the right thing when it's confronted by a train is like that toddler, but it has no way to exclaim, "what was that?". No, strike that; a Tesla's neural network is much less sophisticated than that of a human toddler. I haven't seen estimates in the last few years, but the last I heard, the best neural networks had a complexity comparable to that of an insect's brain. That's what Tesla's trying to do: It's trying to teach an insect to drive a car. That may sound ludicrous, but insects are pretty good at navigating the world, so it may well be an achievable goal, but it's not an easy task.

You've chosen to emphasize the word "TRAIN" in your message as if it were self-evident what one is; but you know what a train is, and you know how dangerous one can be, because you've seen them, in real life and in photos, movies, etc., for your whole life. Your own neural network is much more sophisticated than what's in a Tesla, so you can learn more quickly, and you deeply understand how dangerous it would be to stand in front of a train as it barrels down the tracks. A Tesla's neural network is a simple mapping of visual inputs to steering, braking, and acceleration outputs. It does not understand what a train is, or even what a car is -- although a Tesla can identify a car as such with good reliability, the Tesla doesn't really understand what it is. Much less a train. To the Tesla, a train is just an unidentified object, and maybe not even that; it might just register as an unknown mass of pixels.

As somebody with a background in both human cognitive psychology and computers, I am very impressed with what Tesla has managed to do with its FSD features. I also know, however, that it will take a lot more exposure to corner cases, like trains, before the system will be able to handle a wide enough array of driving situations for the system to be as safe as a human driver. Even then, there will be novel situations that may confuse it -- volcanic flows, helicopters landing on the street, chickens falling off a truck, etc. It'll be many years before a neural network like Tesla's will be able to reliably handle such situations.
 
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As somebody with a background in both human cognitive psychology and computers, I am very impressed with what Tesla has managed to do with its FSD features. I also know, however, that it will take a lot more exposure to corner cases, like trains, before the system will be able to handle a wide enough array of driving situations for the system to be as safe as a human driver. Even then, there will be novel situations that may confuse it -- volcanic flows, helicopters landing on the street, chickens falling off a truck, etc. It'll be many years before a neural network like Tesla's will be able to reliably handle such situations.
So are you implying that Elon (who also has a diverse educational/technical background like you) knows the last statement to be true as well, and is in fact intentionally misleading customers/potential customers by stating (repeatedly) timelines that are far different from what you (and 99% of everyone else) have come to conclude?

Or are you saying he literally is just that clueless and that far out of touch...constantly?
 
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And you are correct..

This is off topic here, and it is not clear what the situation is, as I said.

As I mentioned there are two questions to be resolved. The teardown may answer one this week or next.

Let’s see what the teardown shows. I now think they will be well short of their promises (unlike I did in prior posts, before looking at the details).

But: A vehicle with 54% more range was never promised - what was clearly promised is that that would be POSSIBLE. It would be obviously silly to create a vehicle with 54% more range right now even if it were possible. So it’s absurd to say that they haven’t delivered one if they have a vehicle with a 60% populated pack with 90% of the range. (Again, I don’t think that is the situation but wait for the teardown to see how much they fall short of their goals.) Maybe just take this discussion to another thread too, you can tag me if you want!

It’s also possible they are accounting for future “higher risk” density increases in the 4680 cells to get there - Battery Day was short on details of their roadmap and high on hype.