Service Center wont honor repeater warranty

[nowwhatnapster]

M3 LR RWD Nov 2018 build with FSD.

I have an appointment with my local service center on Monday to get my left repeater replaced due to the blinker occluding the camera at night by 50%. Along with some other maintenance.

SC says this is an "upgrade" and wants to charge me. I just received the estimate and the listed both repeaters, $340 including labor total

I am unsure why they added the right repeater. It does not display the design flaw/occlusion at night. Do the repeaters have to be matching hardware versions?

I stressed the point that the Autopilot & FSD have difficulty changing lanes/turning right at night because of this blinker design flaw, but SC staff insisted its an upgrade.

I think I'm just going to ask that they give me the old repeaters back if they are unwilling to honor the warranty so I can flip them on eBay.

Anyone else have any luck with this?

 

[RayK]

Original repeaters have a hole in the circuit board which allows light to get into the camera's view. I don't think you have any claim on this being a "warranty" problem. There's a DIY fix that covers the hole and significantly reduces the problem.

 

[nowwhatnapster]

Original repeaters have a hole in the circuit board which allows light to get into the camera's view. I don't think you have any claim on this being a "warranty" problem. There's a DIY fix that covers the hole and significantly reduces the problem.

It is a design flaw. I have seen the DIY video breakdown of the issue.

My counterpoint is that this flaw impacts the usability of FSD beta which the cameras are an integral part of the system. Essentially the same thing as the HW 2.5 computer that was swapped under warranty.

Secondly, the issue is only affecting one of my repeaters. I believe this is just them using flawed parts get cars out of the factory and pushing the issue onto the consumer.

 

[EVRider-FL]

When using the Blind Spot Camera feature at night in my wife’s Model 3, the camera views on both sides are equally impacted by the turn signals. I haven’t noticed what impact this has on FSD (not the Beta).

 

[medphys3]

It is a design flaw. I have seen the DIY video breakdown of the issue.

My counterpoint is that this flaw impacts the usability of FSD beta which the cameras are an integral part of the system. Essentially the same thing as the HW 2.5 computer that was swapped under warranty.

Secondly, the issue is only affecting one of my repeaters. I believe this is just them using flawed parts get cars out of the factory and pushing the issue onto the consumer.

It's not a design flaw, it's the design. It's been like that since the beginning, but only recently became apparent (and revised) after Tesla activated blind spot monitoring on the screen. I'm not saying that your camera isn't faulty, but the hole in the circuit board definitely isn't a flaw. Remember these cameras were originally designed for Autopilot and not for our visualization wants. All the extra stuff we get from them (Sentry, dashcam, blind spot monitoring) are just nice extras.

 

[nowwhatnapster]

It's not a design flaw, it's the design. It's been like that since the beginning, but only recently became apparent (and revised) after Tesla activated blind spot monitoring on the screen. I'm not saying that your camera isn't faulty, but the hole in the circuit board definitely isn't a flaw. Remember these cameras were originally designed for Autopilot and not for our visualization wants. All the extra stuff we get from them (Sentry, dashcam, blind spot monitoring) are just nice extras.

It is a design flaw. Why else would they release updated parts with a piece of tape over the problematic circuit board holes? Adding tape to a circuit board does not reduce the cost of the part. It is a band-aid to fix a an engineering oversight that impacts the usability of the camera.

My issue is not with the impacts to the visualizations features that were released later. My issue is that 50% of the frames from the left repeater camera going to the FSD computers are unusable due to the LED occlusion. This impacts the performance of autopilot and FSD beta in left turn scenarios. FSD was bought and promised back in 2018. This isn't an extra feature.

Reiterating that only 1 camera is affected. These are both November 2018 cameras. Still partly light out, but it gets worse in full darkness. Video:

https://imgur.com/a/XXM35ld

 

[Waltjo]

While it is certainly true that the light leak is an engineering flaw and one for which a fix has been implemented. It doesn't follow that every engineering change that improves a product must become a required retrofit for previously built products. Most companies implement design improvement thought-out the production life of any design. The retrofit costs would soon become too much for any company.

In the case of this camera, it seems likely that Tesla can minimize the effects of the light bleed by filtering the image from the affected cameras. First, the duty cycle of the blinker seems to be about equal on/off times. Although not optimum the interfering light is probably only present 50% of the time (that is the meantime duty cycle specified by SAE) and the nominal duration of the "clear" periods is .5 sec (it seems that this could vary+- .1 sec again from SAE spec). This would seem to give a reasonable amount of information for these side view sensors. And the total information available to driving logic would be augmented by the other cameras, some facing the great and others facing the front. So the logic can likely infer the presence of an obstacle even during the relatively short blind period caused by the interfering signals. From this, I think the FSD can probably function without replacing the repeaters.

That said, it is almost always true that in critical systems (like self-driving) it is better to be over-determined if possible. And that is surely why the design improvement was made. But it is also the case that the cost to retrofit the entire fleet may not be justified.

 

[dmurphy]

This thread should close with @Waltjo ‘s answer. It’s absolutely spot on.

An ECO - engineering change order - does not indicate a defect in material or workmanship, which is what a warranty is for.

Doesn’t mean we have to like it, but the part’s not defective and therefore not a warranty concern.

Been there, done that, got a pile of enterprise IT gear to prove it. (That’s the business I’m in, so I see this all the time.)

 

[stopcrazypp]

It is a design flaw. I have seen the DIY video breakdown of the issue.

My counterpoint is that this flaw impacts the usability of FSD beta which the cameras are an integral part of the system. Essentially the same thing as the HW 2.5 computer that was swapped under warranty.

Secondly, the issue is only affecting one of my repeaters. I believe this is just them using flawed parts get cars out of the factory and pushing the issue onto the consumer.

You will probably go nowhere arguing about it in general if you have the issue on both cameras. However given you say you only have it on one camera, I would make that clear to the SC in your messages and that it should be covered under warranty given it only affects one camera. Others have had no problem getting one camera covered under warranty. It's those with the issue on both that have had a hard time.

If you end up having to pay to it, yes, you can request the old one back and flip them online. But the guy would have to be careful not to break the tabs when removing them (they are easy to break).

 

[jeremymc7]

NOTE:

New repeaters w/out the light leakage come with black trim ONLY on them to match new cars.

To use them on older chrome cars they have to pry off the black trim, remove the old glue, and then add new glue, and finally new chrome trim part. The new chrome trim doesn't have the Tesla logo embossed on it like the ones that came with the car; which may be why Tesla recommends replacing both. You also can't salvage the chrome from your original camera as it deforms when removing.

I just had mine replaced under warranty but I used the reason that they were going out in the rain. I didn't use the glare issue. Tesla will NOT cover glare as it is not a TSB or Recall issue. The camera going out in rain however is a KNOWN issue and is covered under warranty. HOWEVER, the issue is only known to affect one camera - on some cars left, others right. Best thing is is space out the warranty cameras on each side. Be aware that Tesla may ask for error codes or other proof. I submitted a video with the cameras blinking on and off (when parked) and that was enough for them.

 

[nowwhatnapster]

is camera, it seems likely that Tesla can minimize the effects of the light bleed by filtering the image from the affected cameras. First, the duty cycle of the blinker seems to be about equal on/off times. Although not optimum the interfe

It's near 100% opacity at night. I highly doubt any image post processing (if they are doing it in real time) would be able to salvage anything here.

I see there is another long thread discussing where this impacts performance. I believe it does based on my experience with FSD beta and AP at night.

I'll update that thread since this is a duplicate topic. Suspected repeater camera defect that affects FSD performance

 

[nowwhatnapster]

NOTE:

New repeaters w/out the light leakage come with black trim ONLY on them to match new cars.

To use them on older chrome cars they have to pry off the black trim, remove the old glue, and then add new glue, and finally new chrome trim part. The new chrome trim doesn't have the Tesla logo embossed on it like the ones that came with the car; which may be why Tesla recommends replacing both. You also can't salvage the chrome from your original camera as it deforms when removing.

I just had mine replaced under warranty but I used the reason that they were going out in the rain. I didn't use the glare issue. Tesla will NOT cover glare as it is not a TSB or Recall issue. The camera going out in rain however is a KNOWN issue and is covered under warranty. HOWEVER, the issue is only known to affect one camera - on some cars left, others right. Best thing is is space out the warranty cameras on each side. Be aware that Tesla may ask for error codes or other proof. I submitted a video with the cameras blinking on and off (when parked) and that was enough for them.

Can't say I've had that blinking issue, I don't leave the camera's up while I'm driving so it may be going unnoticed. Noted on the chrome logo.

 

[nowwhatnapster]

You will probably go nowhere arguing about it in general if you have the issue on both cameras. However given you say you only have it on one camera, I would make that clear to the SC in your messages and that it should be covered under warranty given it only affects one camera. Others have had no problem getting one camera covered under warranty. It's those with the issue on both that have had a hard time.

If you end up having to pay to it, yes, you can request the old one back and flip them online. But the guy would have to be careful not to break the tabs when removing them (they are easy to break).

See post with images above, those are stills from a video. Just the left camera is affected,

But yeah I don't know how much I care about arguing with the SC. Service has been $h!t to me at 2 different SC's. Bring my car in for service when they don't have the parts (twice). Locking my car in the service bay after telling me to come pick up. Did not receive any sort of compensation, good will etc. Was hoping 3rd one might be better, but we'll see how it plays out.

At the very least I am gonna ask for both repeaters back if they play hardball because the right one is totally fine. I can give that to someone else that has the repeater issue and do the DIY fix on the other.

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

Me: I can't see the side cameras when reversing at night with the hazards on.

Service: The blind spot camera was not included with your car when you purchased it, it's a free bonus and you got what you paid for.

Me: I paid for a car with backup cameras that are supposed to work with the hazard lights on. Who said anything about blind spot cameras?

Service: The blind spot camera was not included with your car when you purchased it, it's a free bonus and you got what you paid for.

Me: I paid for a car with backup cameras that are supposed to work with the hazard lights on. You can clearly see that it doesn't work properly and you know about the updated part to fix it.

Service: Ziiiip. Suck it.

 

[nowwhatnapster]

Me: I can't see the side cameras when reversing at night with the hazards on

Service: The blind spot camera was not included with your car when you purchased it, it's a free bonus and you got what you paid for.

Me: I paid for a car with backup cameras that are supposed to work with the hazard lights on. Who said anything about blind spot cameras?

Service: The blind spot camera was not included with your car when you purchased it, it's a free bonus and you got what you paid for.

Me: I paid for a car with backup cameras that are supposed to work with the hazard lights on.

Service: Ziiiip. Suck it.

I honestly don't use the blind spot camera's for that purpose. I care more about the FSD beta / AP functionality which is lackluster at night.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Me: I can't see the side cameras when reversing at night with the hazards on.

Service: The blind spot camera was not included with your car when you purchased it, it's a free bonus and you got what you paid for.

Me: I paid for a car with backup cameras that are supposed to work with the hazard lights on. Who said anything about blind spot cameras?

Service: The blind spot camera was not included with your car when you purchased it, it's a free bonus and you got what you paid for.

Me: I paid for a car with backup cameras that are supposed to work with the hazard lights on. You can clearly see that it doesn't work properly and you know about the updated part to fix it.

Service: Ziiiip. Suck it.

Don't think that argument will work because the rear camera works fine. The rear camera is all they promised initially (and also is the only one federally required). The two side camera views were added later on user request and are just optional bonuses (which you slide up to show, slide down to hide).
This was the update that added them to the backup view:
Tesla adds side camera feeds when backing up the car, cabin camera improves safety (2020.24.6) - Tesla Oracle
I don't remember however if it shows by default or if you have to slide up at least once for it to show (my car always shows it now because I swiped up at some point).

 

[thewishmaster]

While it is certainly true that the light leak is an engineering flaw and one for which a fix has been implemented. It doesn't follow that every engineering change that improves a product must become a required retrofit for previously built products. Most companies implement design improvement thought-out the production life of any design. The retrofit costs would soon become too much for any company.

In the case of this camera, it seems likely that Tesla can minimize the effects of the light bleed by filtering the image from the affected cameras. First, the duty cycle of the blinker seems to be about equal on/off times. Although not optimum the interfering light is probably only present 50% of the time (that is the meantime duty cycle specified by SAE) and the nominal duration of the "clear" periods is .5 sec (it seems that this could vary+- .1 sec again from SAE spec). This would seem to give a reasonable amount of information for these side view sensors. And the total information available to driving logic would be augmented by the other cameras, some facing the great and others facing the front. So the logic can likely infer the presence of an obstacle even during the relatively short blind period caused by the interfering signals. From this, I think the FSD can probably function without replacing the repeaters.

That said, it is almost always true that in critical systems (like self-driving) it is better to be over-determined if possible. And that is surely why the design improvement was made. But it is also the case that the cost to retrofit the entire fleet may not be justified.

Some real-world analysis to support your point:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1503184608166248448

tl; dr; it shouldn’t have that much effect on FSD, surprisingly

 

[Jeremy3292]

Is your 2018 vehicle still even under warranty? Only good for 50k miles anyways...

 

[nowwhatnapster]

Is your 2018 vehicle still even under warranty? Only good for 50k miles anyways...

@ 35k so likely till november

 

[Silver_Bullet]

File a class action due to security concerns