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Several questions about Martian Wheels vs Vossen vs Gemini's on MY.

Mahamilto

Member
Feb 20, 2021
397
334
New York, NY
Everything would have to be done dead equal. So I would actually say that driving the same car makes a better comparison (like the prior poster and the videos showing the same car).

it would just be odd, as Tesla says the Aeros WITHOUT caps have more range than the Ubers, and I think they have no reason to fudge that competitive number. This is why the PUP on the prior year M3/MYP was really where you saw the mileage get killed.
 
I cannot attest to your results, but it would be very very surprising.

The uberturbines have maybe a touch of aerodynamics to them, but they are hardly aero wheels. They are also NOTORIOUS range killers; something tesla even outright admits. The literal difference between the long range and the performance's 35+mile range difference is only the wheels/tires and nothing but the wheels/tires.

Plus, assuming you had the stock summer tires on the ubers and went to an all season (inherently less grip and roll resistance), I almost wonder the following: was your speedo adjusted? Just going to the all-seasons should have net you range (maybe not 0-60).

I only ask because countless tests have shown going from the 21" uberturbines on the Y performance to literally ANY 19" will result in an astounding pickup in efficiency, let alone 0-60 time. Its just physics. But if your speedo isn't recalibrate for the significantly smaller diameter... I guess that could explain it> Don't know what can possibly account for your experience. Aerodynamics matter, but your 21" are legit nearly 70lbs on the back and had a summer sticky...



Again, can't attest to your findings, and maybe you are experiencing something, but it pretty much defies the laws of physics.
First off, there is no reduction in tire diameter to speak of. A small reduction in the rear, not as much as the tire calculator shows. Call it 0.3" shorter in the rear, identical in the front. This is from measuring the actual tires mounted.

Second, I checked speedo calibration before and after by comparing speedo indicated speed to GPS indicated speed. GPS speed was measured both with a Dragy and with the internal sensor in the Note 10+. Both GPS units matched identically, and the speedo read just under a mile fast at 70 mph with all wheel & tire sets.

Third, my results do not defy physics. You claim the Uberturbines are not aerodynamic; can I see your test results or a link? I think my test results verify that the Uberturbines are in fact very aerodynamic.

Fourth, wheel weight has nearly zero to do with steady state cruise efficiency. It certainly will affect stop & go driving, albeit to a lesser extent than an ICE vehicle due to regenerative braking.

Fifth, I can find a lot of holes in the video tests I've seen. For instance, the videos I've seen claimed that 0-60 times improved when using M3 wheels & tires due to lower wheel set weight. Sorry, that's wrong. 0-60 times improved because the much smaller diameter tires improved gearing pretty dramatically. If the testers couldn't even figure that pretty simple thing, I really have no confidence in the rest of their test procedures and results. I did my best to eliminate or control all variables from the test, and I performed multiple tests with each wheel & tire set. I threw out any test where I encountered a condition that could skew the results. I tested until I had a minimum of five good tests. I keep written records of all of my long drives, and long term data collection is backing up the data I gathered driving my test loop.

My test results surprised me as well. I was expecting a large improvement in range; I did not get it. Now that I've had a chance to check the Tsportline TSTs with 255/45-19 Quatrac Pros, I find that I'm finally back to the same efficiency I was getting with the 21s. Yes, a 19" wheel should be capable of better range than a 19" due to the taller sidewall being more aerodynamic than a shorter sidewall. But that effect is negated if the 19" wheel itself isn't aero, or if the 21" wheel is very aero.

The 21" wheel setup is a notorious range killer only when compared to the notorious efficiency of the 19" geminis with hubcaps and LRR tires. Pretty clearly it's not a range killer compared to other inefficient setups.

Tire rolling resistance is also going to have a big impact. I only tested two 19" tires, the Bridgestone QuietTrack and the Vredestein Quatrac Pro. While the Vredesteins seem to have lower rolling resistance resulting in a 3% improvement in efficiency over the Bridgestones, they are both performance oriented tires and it's likely I could do much better if I was willing to sacrifice other performance characteristics for lower rolling resistance.

My choice of wheel width may be affecting efficiency as well. I chose 8.5" wide rims, Tesla chose 9.5" rims; It seems probable that Tesla chose that width for superior aerodynamics. Choosing a 245/45-19 tire to go with the narrow rims should improve both aerodynamics and rolling resistance. When my 255s wear out, I'll likely go that route.

My guess at this point is that the TSVs will have at least a 3% efficiency advantage over the TSTs. That's merely a guess though as I have not tested the TSVs. That's a tough choice. The TSTs will handle better and provide a better ride due to lower weight. All we know for sure at this point is that the Gemini wheel with hubcap is going to be the gold standard for range, but an extra 5% - 10% range isn't the be all end all for everybody. I think it's likely--and this is just a guess at this point given my test data--that the TSV wheels in 19 x 9.5" sizing should be very, very close in range to the stock Geminis--assuming identical tires.
 
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cusetownusa

OD 9/27 LR5 MSM/Bl | 19 | NYI EDD 2/17-3/17
Jan 29, 2020
761
1,370
Syracuse NY
I have the Martian 18/8.5 wheel set on MY LR. Switched from 20 inch induction wheels. Nakkian AllWeather tires. Huge ride difference for comfort. Less KWhrs/mile although no formal testing. The wheels look great

what did you do with your induction wheels? In hindsight would you have gone with the geminis to save money?

does going to 18” mess with the speed/odometer?

when you say less kwhrs/mile does that mean you think you are getting better range with the Martian 18s then geminis or inductions?

do you run the Nokians year round? I’m a big fan of Nokian tires and would like to avoid having 2 sets of tires assuming the nokian all weather tires are a great alternative to have a summer tire and winter tire set.

Sorry for all the questions. The wheel decision for me seems to be the hardest one. I am not a fan of the geminis or the tire but not sure I want the lower profile of the inductions and hit to the range with them.
 

Mahamilto

Member
Feb 20, 2021
397
334
New York, NY
My assumption about the ubers is an assumption 100%. But based on some very solid principles.

The Uber design, in theory, appears to move air from the wheel, but a close eye notices that these are asymmetric wheels with no right and left specificity. Meaning if they are indeed aero efficient, the opposite side of the car would be working against you. It actually makes little sense they were designed this way, but making right/left wheels would have been less cost effective.

I 100% agree that at a constant highway speed, weight is a lesser factor. Acceleration and stop and go are much bigger considerations. Will you see .3 drop on the 0-60? Probably not, but I’ve never tested.

Tires make a huge difference though, and it would be very hard to argue that any ultra high performance summer tires would have even close to the same rolling resistance as say, an all season etc. Sidewall is another consideration; thicker sidewall typically means less rolling resistance (typically, all others being equal) and low profiles are not good for range. Small wheel means you can run more sidewall if you keep the tire height the same.

As far as the efficiency; those are Tesla’s numbers. I don’t have the chart in front of me, but they put out numbers from model 3 performance in 2020 with the different wheels (aero no cover, aero with cover, 19s, and 20s). Their data said the 20s get the worst range, even when compared to the 18s WITHOUT the cover. Their data that they sent to the epa.

again, not saying ur wrong. Or calling you a liar in anyway. Seriously. Just saying it’s surprising. That’s all.
 

BDC62

Member
Sep 17, 2020
51
33
Florida
First off, there is no reduction in tire diameter to speak of. A small reduction in the rear, not as much as the tire calculator shows. Call it 0.3" shorter in the rear, identical in the front. This is from measuring the actual tires mounted.

Second, I checked speedo calibration before and after by comparing speedo indicated speed to GPS indicated speed. GPS speed was measured both with a Dragy and with the internal sensor in the Note 10+. Both GPS units matched identically, and the speedo read just under a mile fast at 70 mph with all wheel & tire sets.

Third, my results do not defy physics. You claim the Uberturbines are not aerodynamic; can I see your test results or a link? I think my test results verify that the Uberturbines are in fact very aerodynamic.

Fourth, wheel weight has nearly zero to do with steady state cruise efficiency. It certainly will affect stop & go driving, albeit to a lesser extent than an ICE vehicle due to regenerative braking.

Fifth, I can find a lot of holes in the video tests I've seen. For instance, the videos I've seen claimed that 0-60 times improved when using M3 wheels & tires due to lower wheel set weight. Sorry, that's wrong. 0-60 times improved because the much smaller diameter tires improved gearing pretty dramatically. If the testers couldn't even figure that pretty simple thing, I really have no confidence in the rest of their test procedures and results. I did my best to eliminate or control all variables from the test, and I performed multiple tests with each wheel & tire set. I threw out any test where I encountered a condition that could skew the results. I tested until I had a minimum of five good tests. I keep written records of all of my long drives, and long term data collection is backing up the data I gathered driving my test loop.

My test results surprised me as well. I was expecting a large improvement in range; I did not get it. Now that I've had a chance to check the Tsportline TSTs with 255/45-19 Quatrac Pros, I find that I'm finally back to the same efficiency I was getting with the 21s. Yes, a 19" wheel should be capable of better range than a 19" due to the taller sidewall being more aerodynamic than a shorter sidewall. But that effect is negated if the 19" wheel itself isn't aero, or if the 21" wheel is very aero.

The 21" wheel setup is a notorious range killer only when compared to the notorious efficiency of the 19" geminis with hubcaps and LRR tires. Pretty clearly it's not a range killer compared to other inefficient setups.

Tire rolling resistance is also going to have a big impact. I only tested two 19" tires, the Bridgestone QuietTrack and the Vredestein Quatrac Pro. While the Vredesteins seem to have lower rolling resistance resulting in a 3% improvement in efficiency over the Bridgestones, they are both performance oriented tires and it's likely I could do much better if I was willing to sacrifice other performance characteristics for lower rolling resistance.

My choice of wheel width may be affecting efficiency as well. I chose 8.5" wide rims, Tesla chose 9.5" rims; It seems probable that Tesla chose that width for superior aerodynamics. Choosing a 245/45-19 tire to go with the narrow rims should improve both aerodynamics and rolling resistance. When my 255s wear out, I'll likely go that route.

My guess at this point is that the TSVs will have at least a 3% efficiency advantage over the TSTs. That's merely a guess though as I have not tested the TSVs. That's a tough choice. The TSTs will handle better and provide a better ride due to lower weight. All we know for sure at this point is that the Gemini wheel with hubcap is going to be the gold standard for range, but an extra 5% - 10% range isn't the be all end all for everybody. I think it's likely--and this is just a guess at this point given my test data--that the TSV wheels in 19 x 9.5" sizing should be very, very close in range to the stock Geminis--assuming identical tires.
I agree with Nakk; the 21" Uberturbines are very efficient. I've had my MYP since July, and have driven just over 10,000 miles with an average of 257 wh/mi. With Florida being relatively flat and having mild temperatures, many variables that can affect efficiency are dramatically reduced or eliminated.
 
My assumption about the ubers is an assumption 100%. But based on some very solid principles.
Not really. Again, you haven't tested the 21s, I have. You make the assumption, without data, that the aerodynamics of the wheel are affected by direction. I'll agree that they look that way, but looks don't really matter. A rocket box looks like it's more aerodynamic with the small end forward, but the reverse is true. Given that each spoke closely follows another, the drafting effect is going to play a huge part. It's very possible that all that matters with these wheels is that they act much like disc wheels, given the surface area of the spokes.

I 100% agree that at a constant highway speed, weight is a lesser factor. Acceleration and stop and go are much bigger considerations. Will you see .3 drop on the 0-60? Probably not, but I’ve never tested.
As tested with a Dragy, I saw zero measurable difference 0-60 between all three wheel/tire combinations. This surprised me greatly.

Tires make a huge difference though, and it would be very hard to argue that any ultra high performance summer tires would have even close to the same rolling resistance as say, an all season etc. Sidewall is another consideration; thicker sidewall typically means less rolling resistance (typically, all others being equal) and low profiles are not good for range. Small wheel means you can run more sidewall if you keep the tire height the same.
Absolutely agreed. the only thing I can think of, and this is a guess, is that the 21" wheels act enough like a disc wheel that sidewall depth is not having the same aerodynamic impact it would otherwise have. I agree with your assertion on rolling resistance, which is why I've concluded that the Uberturbines are Uber aerodynamic. BTW, thicker sidewalls don't make much difference in rolling resistance, although typically low profile tires have higher rolling resistance because low profile tires are generally high performance tires. Thicker sidewalls do make a good difference in aerodynamics, except in the case of a disc wheel. The more aerodynamic the wheel, the less benefit gained from thicker sidewalls. (Every bike racer learns this early on.)

As far as the efficiency; those are Tesla’s numbers. I don’t have the chart in front of me, but they put out numbers from model 3 performance in 2020 with the different wheels (aero no cover, aero with cover, 19s, and 20s). Their data said the 20s get the worst range, even when compared to the 18s WITHOUT the cover. Their data that they sent to the epa.
The EPA data is not based on 65 mph driving, it's based on a mix of stop & go and slower than freeway speed driving. Aerodynamics are going to play a smaller role under those conditions than rolling resistance.

again, not saying ur wrong. Or calling you a liar in anyway. Seriously. Just saying it’s surprising. That’s all.
I never took offense... I agree completely that the data is surprising; I was shocked myself. I repeated the tests many times since I initially assumed I must have overlooked something. Eventually, I had to believe the data.
 

gt2690b

Member
Jun 6, 2018
368
271
Colorado
Can anyone tell me if these would be worth a darn?


much cheaper than martian and similar weights.. ive inquired about the load rating i think its 840kg but yet to confirm if that is good enough and if that is the actual rating
 
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I replaced my naked Geminis with 20"x8.5" Martian MW03's, mounted with Michelin Pilot Sport AS 255/40/20. I was hoping to save about 5lbs per corner based on Martian's wheel weight claims, but when I checked them using my bathroom scale, the complete wheels were just under 1lb lighter than stock. They look cool though.
 

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I replaced my naked Geminis with 20"x8.5" Martian MW03's, mounted with Michelin Pilot Sport AS 255/40/20. I was hoping to save about 5lbs per corner based on Martian's wheel weight claims, but when I checked them using my bathroom scale, the complete wheels were just under 1lb lighter than stock. They look cool though.
Yeah, My Martians are much heavier than claimed... Nice wheels, but not a "light weight" wheel.
 

gt2690b

Member
Jun 6, 2018
368
271
Colorado
Confirmed load rating is 840kg and I believe that is good enough
 
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Nakk thank you so much. You have no idea



First of all thank you Nakk for such an incredibly detailed reply. Sorry for my delay in replying. I'm a medical student studying for boards and life has been really busy on the personal front. Thank you also to everyone else that responded.

Okay now onto the meat and potatoes of this thread. Thank you for your post. You opened my eyes to a totally different way of looking at this. I was only thinking of weight as being the main determinant. But I've been reading more and more about how 21's are as efficient as much lighter aftermarket options in smaller sizes. That says a lot for aerodynamic capabilities. Having said that ride comfort is important too and apparently a lighter wheel will help with that. Seeing what you went with, I'd venture to say that you are certainly going to get the best of both worlds. The comfort and the better range. Yes the TSV's will def give me better range and they look super cool. But the lighter weight of the TST's is certainly attractive, esp since you are saying they have a good amount of aerodynamic efficiency. What you said about the 19 Martians being about the same as the stock 21's shocked me to no end. I really thought the 19 martians would be better than the inductions and maybe a tad bit more than the Gemini's. But wow that was a shocker. I guess that puts me out of Martian territory and into Tsportline territory.

I am wondering though, since the TST's and TSV's are not fully forged, would I be running any risk in terms of potential wheel damage from reduced strength when compared with a fully forged wheel like the Martians? Or do you feel like their longevity is pretty good?

Sorry for the million questions but I actually tried to call Tsportline to ask these questions. Ellio or whatever his name is (the guy from the videos) answered and he was curt and rude. Similar experience to what you had. That says a lot because I am a very veryyyy polite, friendly and courteous guy. I even started out by saying wow I'm speaking the person from the youtube videos etc and was genuinely happy. He acted like I was a noob and an idiot for asking questions about range. Said you must be a new Tesla owner from the stupid stuff you are asking. He also seemed like had to get off the phone and didn't want to answer my questions. At that point I just stopped asking anything and just said thank you for your help. To give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he was rushed with other calls. But it was pretty off putting from someone who is about to give you a few thousand dollars in business.

Do you already have your TST's on? If so what are you tracking in terms of kw/h? At the end of the day if I can get at least 295 or so from my LR MY on 20" wheels with some decent ride comfort i'll be a happy camper. I should be able to get that from either the 20" TST's or TSV's right?

Thank you once again to everyone that chipped in with advice, help and tips.
This is late to the post, but when I called Martian wheels about a week ago, 23 Nov 2021, the customer service person was very polite, professional and informative. Maybe they read these posts, but I was very pleased with the service from Martian. I have a MYLR on order, expected delivery in June 2022, and I ordered with Geminis and plan to purchase the Martian 19x8.5s and new Michelin Sport tires for my daily rides. I will keep the Geminis for long trips and I can interchange the wheels as a spare for short distances as needed.
 

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