Shocked by the new Roadster rolling out of the Tesla Semi!

[ecarfan]

I have read about Teslas entered in Formula E.

I don’t know what you have read, but Forumula E cars are specifically designed for that racing series and they definitely are not Teslas nor are any of the components made by Tesla as far as I know. See Formula E car - Wikipedia

You may be thinking of the Electric GT racing series which is a private effort not related to Tesla. See this link: Home

Car magazine reviews don't sell cars so much to the general public, but getting the automotive press on your side is important for the standing of the brand in the automotive industry.

Based on the automotive press reviews I have been reading over the past four years, they are generally very positive about Tesla. In my opinion, Tesla does not need to engage in any racing endeavours to become an even more successful automotive startup then they already are. We can agree to disagree.

 

[Cloxxki]

Given the performance characteristics they are aiming for, this would seem incorrect.

If you must have 1MW from the presently avaailable slow discharge cells, indeed.
But to go under 2 seconds to 60mph, you can also "simply" build a truly lightweighted car around a 100-150kWh pack made up of those slow 2170's.
With more sparky cells such as used in the (ancient) Chevy Volt, 100kWh would actually be more than enough. 300kW draw from a 16.5kWh pack. https://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2015/02/f19/batteryVolt4313.pdf

It's nice to have 200kWh (I'm all for it, if at no cost), but it's less nice to have a 1000-1200kg pack in what's supposed to be a sports car. Even if this would result in seen performance, it's just a party trick, like Model S's.
Unless done up with an all-carbon construction (which would liekly demand a higher pricepoint), you're going to have a very heavy sports car. Not to mention it having three likely pretty big motors. I suspect similar to existing S/X rear motors, to get all that batery power to the wheels. I'd put a single P motor in front and depending on weight, maybe two non-P ones on the rear wheels. P motors suck so much extra energy even in calm cruising, nearly defying the point of going green.

 

[JRP3]

I'm dying for Hyundai to build an estate car with three of those Ioniq packs crammed in there.

Then you should probably be on the Hyundai message boards complaining to them. Tesla isn't building vehicles you want, this thread about the Roadster isn't the place to keep complaining.

No frunk necessary. 3x31kWh=93kWh, very much Tesla territory. Charge rate would be 200kW without any adjustment to the pack available for sale today in a car cheaper than Model 3, with pretty decent features.

Rather ridiculous that you think a car with a 93kWh pack from a low volume EV producer such as Hyundai could ever be cheaper than a Model 3. And again, wrong thread.

 

[JRP3]

Not to mention it having three likely pretty big motors. I suspect similar to existing S/X rear motors, to get all that batery power to the wheels.

I suspect 3 Model 3 motors. If 4 of them can move a Semi...

 

[scaesare]

If you must have 1MW from the presently avaailable slow discharge cells, indeed.
But to go under 2 seconds to 60mph, you can also "simply" build a truly lightweighted car around a 100-150kWh pack made up of those slow 2170's.
With more sparky cells such as used in the (ancient) Chevy Volt, 100kWh would actually be more than enough. 300kW draw from a 16.5kWh pack. https://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2015/02/f19/batteryVolt4313.pdf

It's nice to have 200kWh (I'm all for it, if at no cost), but it's less nice to have a 1000-1200kg pack in what's supposed to be a sports car. Even if this would result in seen performance, it's just a party trick, like Model S's.
Unless done up with an all-carbon construction (which would liekly demand a higher pricepoint), you're going to have a very heavy sports car. Not to mention it having three likely pretty big motors. I suspect similar to existing S/X rear motors, to get all that batery power to the wheels. I'd put a single P motor in front and depending on weight, maybe two non-P ones on the rear wheels. P motors suck so much extra energy even in calm cruising, nearly defying the point of going green.

There are more design targets than just the 0-60 time you focus on:

• Top speed
• Duty cycle capability (i.e.- how long before thermal limiting)
• Weight
• Volume
• Range
• Pack longevity
• Cost
• Center of gravity
• Weight distribution
• Stopping distance
• etc..

Focusing on a subset of the above is a rather myopic view.... one I'm sure the Roadster Design team didn't take.

 

[ecarfan]

But to go under 2 seconds to 60mph, you can also "simply" build a truly lightweighted car around a 100-150kWh pack made up of those slow 2170's.

The new Roadster is about so much more than a record breaking (for a production car) 0-60 time, as @scaesare rightly points out above.

I am willing to wager that the Tesla engineering team put a lot of thought into the design of the vehicle, and that just one of their engineers has far more professional automotive design experience than you do, to say nothing of the cumulative experience and expertise of the entire team. Nothing is “simple” in the world of mass production automobile design.

 

[lolachampcar]

Well, weight is going to be the bug-a-boo on this one.

If I were Tesla, I'd be working real hard on getting Roadster to do things other sports cars have not be able to do (apart from the nuts acceleration). The P100D already just about cleans up the street on 0-100 which is all you can reasonably get away with (on the street). What remains is handling and stopping both of which have weight as the prime enemy. However, and its a bit HOWEVER, Tesla has the unique opportunity to deliver four wheel independent drive, brake and steer with msec (ish) update capability. The time constant for BeV control is insanely low. I still remember the first time in inspected the bar code traction control marks left by my P85's rear wheels hunting for grip and that skitter skitter skitter noise that brought a smile to my face every time. It made me want to go get four outrunner motors and bolt them onto one of those RC off road buggies. Combine that with a 5k series PPC's real time event processor and think of the fun you could have developing traction control strategies.

If all Tesla goes for is the acceleration the car will be a fraction of what it might be and will not sway but a few sports car fans. If they use the technology, they are really going to turn some heads and, like the Model S did, completely re-educate a whole generation of car enthusiasts.

May we live in interesting times.

 

[CarlK]

I am willing to wager that the Tesla engineering team put a lot of thought into the design of the vehicle, and that just one of their engineers has far more professional automotive design experience than you do, to say nothing of the cumulative experience and expertise of the entire team. Nothing is “simple” in the world of mass production automobile design.

I'm sure the Tesla team has the expertise but equally important, if not more so, is their leader always want nothing but the best. I don't think he will ignore any important aspect of this halo car.

 

[Cloxxki]

The new Roadster is about so much more than a record breaking (for a production car) 0-60 time, as @scaesare rightly points out above.

I am willing to wager that the Tesla engineering team put a lot of thought into the design of the vehicle, and that just one of their engineers has far more professional automotive design experience than you do, to say nothing of the cumulative experience and expertise of the entire team. Nothing is “simple” in the world of mass production automobile design.

First, this is not a mss production vehicle even by Tesla's vocabulary.

All these factors exist, but if people presume the same old 2170's in Model 3 today, they're not going to be too great, or not matter.
If you stack up 2 packs to have more power, and you hit the go pedal, ceteris paribus it take the same amount of time for the battery to overheat. The power would still need to go through Tesla motors, and until today they overheat, really quickly.

Every sportcar maker starts out with a weight distribution goal.

High discharge cells tend to do pretty well for longuevity. Look up Chevy Volt degradation discussions by owners.
Tesla is the one company with a publically tainted charging speed reputation, the (2015?) solicone anode cells needing throttling to end up much slower than the 2012 cells of the Model S. Not what people signed up for when they got a 90 in stead of an 85.

Volume is of course the big question, since the second they announced it to have 200kWh. 2170's so far deliver only 18-19Wh, and they're famously big. The car is either stuffed with slow contemporary cells, or blessed witth a whole new generation in batttery technology that changes automotive and even aviation as we know it. Which will it be?

Center of gravity (as in vertical) is nice to have low. But Tesla's are not that great at cornering. They just do it nice and flat. More needed in an SUV than a sports car. They're all quite low. And anyway, if you have a 1200kg pack that sits nice and low, you're still going to corner slower than the same car with a lighter pack.

Stopping distance is mostly a factor of total mass and tyres chosen, although you can mess it up with the choice of brakes and suspension.

Top speed is only a real important aspect for a few supercars. The others just pick a speed that works. With the horsepower war at full blastt, many cars could approach or surpass 250mph. The 1992 McLaren F1 that Elon crashed could get reasonably close to that with just over 600hp. And seat 3. No doubt Roadster will be more slick in terms of aero, would need only 700-750hp at most to reach 250mph.

Some see Roadster as a needless distraction. I find it a cool endeavour, but I'd like to understand it better. Always this Tesla haze of facts. So much for open source

 

[scaesare]

I

First, this is not a mss production vehicle even by Tesla's vocabulary.

All these factors exist, but if people presume the same old 2170's in Model 3 today, they're not going to be too great, or not matter.
If you stack up 2 packs to have more power, and you hit the go pedal, ceteris paribus it take the same amount of time for the battery to overheat. The power would still need to go through Tesla motors, and until today they overheat, really quickly.

Every sportcar maker starts out with a weight distribution goal.

High discharge cells tend to do pretty well for longuevity. Look up Chevy Volt degradation discussions by owners.
Tesla is the one company with a publically tainted charging speed reputation, the (2015?) solicone anode cells needing throttling to end up much slower than the 2012 cells of the Model S. Not what people signed up for when they got a 90 in stead of an 85.

Volume is of course the big question, since the second they announced it to have 200kWh. 2170's so far deliver only 18-19Wh, and they're famously big. The car is either stuffed with slow contemporary cells, or blessed witth a whole new generation in batttery technology that changes automotive and even aviation as we know it. Which will it be?

Center of gravity (as in vertical) is nice to have low. But Tesla's are not that great at cornering. They just do it nice and flat. More needed in an SUV than a sports car. They're all quite low. And anyway, if you have a 1200kg pack that sits nice and low, you're still going to corner slower than the same car with a lighter pack.

Stopping distance is mostly a factor of total mass and tyres chosen, although you can mess it up with the choice of brakes and suspension.

Top speed is only a real important aspect for a few supercars. The others just pick a speed that works. With the horsepower war at full blastt, many cars could approach or surpass 250mph. The 1992 McLaren F1 that Elon crashed could get reasonably close to that with just over 600hp. And seat 3. No doubt Roadster will be more slick in terms of aero, would need only 700-750hp at most to reach 250mph.

Some see Roadster as a needless distraction. I find it a cool endeavour, but I'd like to understand it better. Always this Tesla haze of facts. So much for open source

I really with Tesla would hurry up and hire you so they stop stumbling all over themselves...

 

[ecarfan]

this is not a mss production vehicle even by Tesla's vocabulary.

My statement was, quote: “The new Roadster is about so much more than a record breaking (for a production car) 0-60 time”.

You inserted the word “mass” (though you misspelled it).

Some see Roadster as a needless distraction. I find it a cool endeavour, but I'd like to understand it better. Always this Tesla haze of facts.

I do not discern a “haze” in the facts that Tesla has released on the new Roadster. We do have only a limited amount of information about the car, which is not surprising given that it will not be available to purchase for over two years.

The “haze” I can see is people speculating based on limited information. Not Tesla’s fault.

 

[Cloxxki]

You inserted the word “mass” (though you misspelled it).

Cheers, my keyboard heater is broken. I supposed I was triggered by your writing of "Nothing is “simple” in the world of mass production automobile design.".

 

[JRP3]

If all Tesla goes for is the acceleration the car will be a fraction of what it might be and will not sway but a few sports car fans.

They've also gone for range, which on it's own will sway a number of buyers. Want the longest range EV? Roadster. Want the quickest car? Roadster. Want the quickest and fastest per dollar? Roadster. Want the fastest charge time per mile? Roadster. I think Tesla has checked a number of boxes with this one, before we even find out how the handling will be. And we know it will be better than a Model S.

 

[Cloxxki]

They've also gone for range, which on it's own will sway a number of buyers. Want the longest range EV? Roadster. Want the quickest car? Roadster. Want the quickest and fastest per dollar? Roadster. Want the fastest charge time per mile? Roadster. I think Tesla has checked a number of boxes with this one, before we even find out how the handling will be. And we know it will be better than a Model S.

So many things they could have done with low cost cars. $20 body that looks like Model S, $25K battery, $100K car. Guess how many you could sell? A matter of making space (they've killed half of every frunk already).

 

[Saghost]

So many things they could have done with low cost cars. $20 body that looks like Model S, $25K battery, $100K car. Guess how many you could sell? A matter of making space (they've killed half of every frunk already).

Tesla doesn't need to sell more cars right now - they already have all the 3s they can build sold. I don't see how announcing a cheaper car that they can't build for several years helps them at all - while announcing this halo car clearly helps both the company and its goal for the industry beyond.

 

[Cloxxki]

Tesla doesn't need to sell more cars right now - they already have all the 3s they can build sold. I don't see how announcing a cheaper car that they can't build for several years helps them at all - while announcing this halo car clearly helps both the company and its goal for the industry beyond.

At this moment it's true. But that does open the door to others. And if someone finally picks up the slack in Tesla's market, they could run out of reservations quicker than expected.

 

[ecarfan]

Tesla doesn't need to sell more cars right now - they already have all the 3s they can build sold. I don't see how announcing a cheaper car that they can't build for several years helps them at all - while announcing this halo car clearly helps both the company and its goal for the industry beyond.

I agree. That said, I am hopeful that a few years after the 2020 launch of the new Roadster, Tesla will offer a “non-Supercar” version of the Roadster for much less money. It would be 50% slower (a 0-60 time of around 3 seconds and a much more restricted top speed), maybe fewer motors and no torque vectoring, half the battery capacity, fewer bells and whistles. It would still be an incredible car that I would be thrilled to drive, but the price would address a much larger potential market and Tesla would sell two, three, four or more times as many as the “Supercar” version of the new Roadster. A less costly, less capable version of the Roadster would in no way hurt Tesla’s brand, it would simply broaden it, in the same way that the Model 3 broadens the brand after the Model S was established and selling very well for such an expensive vehicle. The market for a $200K car is very small.

 

[WannabeOwner]

I am hopeful that a few years after the 2020 launch of the new Roadster, Tesla will offer a “non-Supercar” version of the Roadster for much less money

I'm doubtful on that. If its the same "body" then I think existing, and future, expensive-model owners would be unhappy that there is a "dirt cheap" variation available. I think a sporty version of the 3, for low-price-high-performance, seems more likely.

But if I'm wrong I'm right behind you in the line for the dirt-cheap Roadster!

 

[bobinfla]

I agree. That said, I am hopeful that a few years after the 2020 launch of the new Roadster, Tesla will offer a “non-Supercar” version of the Roadster for much less money. It would be 50% slower (a 0-60 time of around 3 seconds and a much more restricted top speed), maybe fewer motors and no torque vectoring, half the battery capacity, fewer bells and whistles. It would still be an incredible car that I would be thrilled to drive, but the price would address a much larger potential market and Tesla would sell two, three, four or more times as many as the “Supercar” version of the new Roadster. A less costly, less capable version of the Roadster would in no way hurt Tesla’s brand, it would simply broaden it, in the same way that the Model 3 broadens the brand after the Model S was established and selling very well for such an expensive vehicle. The market for a $200K car is very small.

I agree that Tesla could clean up with a Mustang/Corvette competitor, and hopefully down the road they will be less production constrained and be able to turn one out (though with Model 3 production hell, semi-truck production hell, Model Y production hell, and then Pickup production hell to go through first, it could be a long time until that happens). I think they have at least a decade of every car they can manage to make flying off the shelves, so they are not in need of a car to broaden sales for quite a while.

But I do hope that they don't make a "Roadster Lite", I hope it is a completely different vehicle. Doesn't seem right to have some people shell out $200k for a top of the line Supercar Roadster and then have others get a car for half the price and half the specs that you can't tell apart if you don't know how to read the badging (which most people won't). IMHO, that sort of cheapens those Supercars.

 

[ecarfan]

Doesn't seem right to have some people shell out $200k for a top of the line Supercar Roadster and then have others get a car for half the price and half the specs that you can't tell apart if you don't know how to read the badging

and since the new Roadster prototype had no badging (and neither does the Model 3) I don’t know how people would be able to tell the “supercar” version of the new Roadster from my fantasy “low cost” version.