Shortage of Superchargers in mid America

[hybridbear]

On Tesla's Supercharger page, at the bottom:

Supercharger | Tesla Motors

You can email the Supercharger team. Plus, you can suggest specific sites. Owners figuring out the "right" venues is a huge help, especially if they can do some of the legwork since Tesla people might not know the local area, traffic patterns, etc.

Thanks! I wasn't sure if this was the right place to go or not before based on the layout of the form. I suggested three locations on the route we travel often from Minneapolis to Winnipeg. One was a shopping center in Fargo, right off I-29 & I-94. One was a shopping center in Grand Forks, with dozens of nearby options for food/bathroom/etc. The final one was a McDonalds in Winnipeg, right off Highway 75 & the Trans-Canada Highway 100 at the southern end of Winnipeg. Basically, the trip from Minneapolis to Winnipeg only needs 3 Superchargers. One halfway between Mpls & Fargo, one in Fargo & one in Grand Forks. I really hope they'll get something built along that route this summer, as without it there's no way my wife would go for a Tesla.

 

[AnOutsider]

I am sort of sad to see this feeling cropping up so often: I can't wait. I want it my way, now! I can't drive anywhere.

You make the OP out to be whiney and petulant, when that's not how his post came across at all. Your location says CA, so I can see how for you it may be a non-issue, but there ARE people who live in colder areas and take trips that would require charging. I see nothing wrong with those folks holding off on ordering until their needs are met. That's the wise thing to do.

Even when the Tesla map shows huge increases in SC sites this year, people complain. "I don't believe they will do it", when they've done it year after year.

Yes, and every year Tesla shows expansions on their map that don't happen. Whether that's due to planning issues or whatever, it still remains that Tesla doesn't always meet their targets with regards to SuperCharger rollout, so folks can, and should, take their projected map with a grain of salt.

Three years ago, Tesla was still a great car. Even in CA, there were NO superchargers. We hadn't heard of them. And a month after we got ours, guess what we did? Went to Canada. OH MY! Had to use RV parks!

What is your point? That you were able to use Model S for your use-case? That's great, but not everyone's use-case is the same. Tesla touts the SuperCharger network as a way of FAST travel between destinations. Not everyone has time to poke along at an RV park while their car charges.

Of course, you're in a hurry. Maybe you shouldn't use the Tesla for business. But waiting a few hours gets you 500 miles a day, easy.

Exactly. As you said, the Model S is one of the best cars on the road, so it's understandable folks would want to use it as much as possible, and if one of those use-cases requires a Supercharger, don't berate them for requesting one.

 

[CSFTN]

Perfectly put. Best post on this thread.

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I admire your commitment and those other owners, seriously. You guys rock. Without rapid charging for distance travel I wouldn't have bought in. You are a better person than I am.

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True - the 2016 projection does look much better than 2015. And if the Model 3 is a hit I'd expect 2017 and 2018 to really flesh out the locations.

'Canada' isn't a state, its an entire HUGE country.. I realize that should be self-evident, but stating a gap of >2000 miles between major cities, with close to no one living between, is equivalent to 700 mile gap with a moderate population distance between are equivalent in their appropriate need for supercharger is false on its face. (PS I am referring to Calgary to Toronto, and 'close to no one' is hyperbole)

I feel bad for you Canadians, but the distance is so vast that I can't help ask "what can you expect?" NOLA, Little Rock, Memphis, Nashville, Birmingham, Paducah, Shreveport, Springfield, and St. Louis aren't really all that far apart, and there are NO RAPID CHARGERS in between, except 3 Chademos in Memphis, at Nissan dealerships. But I am hopeful and patient.

PS I have a 80 amp HPWC in my garage, 1.5 easy miles from I40 in Memphis. PM me if needed. I might even loan out my Chademo adaptor if you want to take it to one of the Nissan dealers...

 

[sorka]

Tulsa Oaklahoma is about to get an SC which will allow me to drive from California to Springfield, MO without going an extra 150 miles out of my way

 

[rays427]

I see on supercharge.info that there are two new permits Lima Montana and Idaho Falls. How many Teslas are going to be traveling in Montana and Idaho? It's also the middle of winter seems it would be much more practical to be building out I 10 at this time of the year. In addition I 10 connects the two greatest concentrations of Teslas, California and Florida. I wonder what the total number of Teslas that need to travel between Butt and Salt Lake City?

 

[MP3Mike]

I see on supercharge.info that there are two new permits Lima Montana and Idaho Falls. How many Teslas are going to be traveling in Montana and Idaho? It's also the middle of winter seems it would be much more practical to be building out I 10 at this time of the year. In addition I 10 connects the two greatest concentrations of Teslas, California and Florida. I wonder what the total number of Teslas that need to travel between Butt and Salt Lake City?

While it might be "more practical" to build out I-10 now, if Tesla hasn't found appropriate/willing sites/cities then they can't start yet. Are they supposed to just completely stop working on the SpC network because they can't get the route you want built right now?

Also, surely there is more than one team installing stations.

 

[rays427]

While it might be "more practical" to build out I-10 now, if Tesla hasn't found appropriate/willing sites/cities then they can't start yet. Are they supposed to just completely stop working on the SpC network because they can't get the route you want built right now?

Also, surely there is more than one team installing stations.

It's not only more practical to build along I-10 in the winter it's also where the cars are. I believe there are more Tesla owners that would like to use I-10 than any other East/West Route. 31% of registered cars are in states that are traversed by I-10. The 3 states with the most cars are California 13.2 million, Texas 7.8 million and Florida 7.5 million. The next highest state is Illinois with 4.7 million. So it makes no sense to not connect these states. I can't believe it's a problem of getting permits through West Texas. I imagine it may be that Tesla is upset with Texas and Arizona not allowing direct sales.

 

[MP3Mike]

The 3 states with the most cars are California 13.2 million, Texas 7.8 million and Florida 7.5 million. The next highest state is Illinois with 4.7 million.

I imagine it may be that Tesla is upset with Texas and Arizona not allowing direct sales.

It isn't just permitting, you have to have a good/willing site first and then get a permit.

But Tesla isn't servicing those millions of cars. Do you know the distribution of Teslas in the various states? Given that Texas/Arizona don't allow direct sales it is possible that there are very few cars there to support. (We certainly don't know the algorithm they use to decided where to spend Supercharger money...)

 

[iffatall]

I don't think density of owners is the only criterion. Making all traveling routes feasible (reachability) is also important. I think someone else might have also pointed this out earlier. (Not saying I-10 is not important; just trying to find a way to justify Montana)

I would like to believe they are trying all well traveled routes including I-10. More progress on one compared to another could be attributed to one of several factors like identifying a spot, ease of permit, getting the electric lines required, etc.

I am not sure how comprehensive the information on supercharger.info is. I don't doubt the accuracy of data already there, but I won't be surprised if the data about charger sites at "permit" stage before construction begins (blue dots) is very incomplete.

There are several phases within the "permit" stage. It is very possible that not all sites starting the process actually end up with a supercharger.

That being said, I can understand your pain, and do believe Tesla can do better in SC expansion. Given the steady increase in rate of sales, I am not sure there has been an increase in rate of Supercharger count. Even if one compensates for the super fast ramp up a couple of years ago.

 

[rays427]

It isn't just permitting, you have to have a good/willing site first and then get a permit.

But Tesla isn't servicing those millions of cars. Do you know the distribution of Teslas in the various states? Given that Texas/Arizona don't allow direct sales it is possible that there are very few cars there to support. (We certainly don't know the algorithm they use to decided where to spend Supercharger money...)

Based on the overall number of cars there is a good chance that the most teslas are also in the those states. However, for sure number one by far is California and from everything I have heard number two is Florida. So the travel between the two largest concentrations would be using I-10. I would also bet there are more Teslas in Texas or Arizona than in Idaho, Montana, Wyoming and South Dakota yet that's where the first east/west link for supercharger travel was completed.

 

[efusco]

I don't think density of owners is the only criterion. Making all traveling routes feasible (reachability) is also important. I think someone else might have also pointed this out earlier. (Not saying I-10 is not important; just trying to find a way to justify Montana)

I would like to believe they are trying all well traveled routes including I-10. More progress on one compared to another could be attributed to one of several factors like identifying a spot, ease of permit, getting the electric lines required, etc.

I am not sure how comprehensive the information on supercharger.info is. I don't doubt the accuracy of data already there, but I won't be surprised if the data about charger sites at "permit" stage before construction begins (blue dots) is very incomplete.

There are several phases within the "permit" stage. It is very possible that not all sites starting the process actually end up with a supercharger.

That being said, I can understand your pain, and do believe Tesla can do better in SC expansion. Given the steady increase in rate of sales, I am not sure there has been an increase in rate of Supercharger count. Even if one compensates for the super fast ramp up a couple of years ago.

As spoken by someone living in the SF Bay area! ;-)
I'd like to believe you're right, but the reality is that there are very few SCs in the low population/purchaser areas of the country. I understand that in one sense, but sure wish they would shift the emphasis away from building 16+ charger SCs in California where we know they are often being used by locals, to focus on completion of the interstate routes and other key intersections in the low density areas. This will improve sales in high density areas since people will feel more confident with cross-country travel and will increase sales in low density areas since those folks with see more of a presence.

When they make me king.....

 

[rogbmw]

I agree that there are areas that just do not support tesla driving. If you simply pull up the map of the US (see here: https://www.teslamotors.com/findus#/?search=supercharger )- you see a huge hole right in the middle where Missouri, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Mississippi, Alabama and Tennessee are. We make several trips back to that area as our families are from there, and for that reason, we cancelled our X reservation as the supercharger network is not built out in these areas, and I do not want my wife to have to go to an RV park and charge for several hours simply to visit relatives. This is why we needed a ICE in addition to our Model S for frequent trips. I love our S, and it is my daily driver here in Florida, and hope to revisit an X in the future depending on the supercharger build out.

 

[dgpcolorado]

I see on supercharge.info that there are two new permits Lima Montana and Idaho Falls. How many Teslas are going to be traveling in Montana and Idaho? It's also the middle of winter seems it would be much more practical to be building out I 10 at this time of the year. In addition I 10 connects the two greatest concentrations of Teslas, California and Florida. I wonder what the total number of Teslas that need to travel between Butt and Salt Lake City?

I gather that some here aren't aware that those Supercharger station sites are the gateway to Yellowstone National Park and have been much requested and anticipated by those who want to visit that gigantic park. It has nothing to do with the number of Teslas in Montana or the number of cars wanting to travel between SLC and Butte.

With a Supercharger station in West Yellowstone it should eventually be possible to drive across Yellowstone from north to west. Even without that, Idaho Falls offers easy destination access to Jackson WY (Grand Teton NP) or West Yellowstone, where L2 charging can be found.

I applaud Tesla for working to open up yet another major national park (as well as Grand Teton National Park) to Tesla tourist traffic.

 

[flankspeed8]

I agree that there are areas that just do not support tesla driving. If you simply pull up the map of the US (see here: https://www.teslamotors.com/findus#/?search=supercharger )- you see a huge hole right in the middle where Missouri, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Mississippi, Alabama and Tennessee are. We make several trips back to that area as our families are from there, and for that reason, we cancelled our X reservation as the supercharger network is not built out in these areas, and I do not want my wife to have to go to an RV park and charge for several hours simply to visit relatives. This is why we needed a ICE in addition to our Model S for frequent trips. I love our S, and it is my daily driver here in Florida, and hope to revisit an X in the future depending on the supercharger build out.

rogbmw: You mean that Tesla owners might actually want to visit friends and family in middle America in their EV's with a Super Charger network to enable LONG DISTANCE travel? gasp. /s.

There are too many people that think SuperChargers's are only for areas where there are Tesla owners, but in reality they are meant to enable long distance travel which by definition means out of their home area.

 

[iffatall]

As spoken by someone living in the SF Bay area! ;-)
... but sure wish they would shift the emphasis away from building 16+ charger SCs in California where we know they are often being used by locals, to focus on completion of the interstate routes and other key intersections in the low density areas ...
... will increase sales in low density areas since those folks with see more of a presence ...

I walked right into that one, didn't I!

I truly do agree with what you are saying here. As I said, just trying to find a way to give Tesla the benefit of the doubt.

Also, just to repeat - I do understand your pain. I bought my car in late 2013, a few months after I moved from New York. It is my very first car. Even though SCs were sparse on the US map, and sparse in the north east at the time, their presence in the Bay Area did make my resolve to buy the car stronger. It also helped arguing with and convincing friends who were against my decision. Looking back, I don't think it should have been as a big contributing factor; but regardless, it was indeed. So, I also agree with you that it would help in sales.

 

[jerry33]

Rome wasn't built in a day. Given all the hurdles they've had to overcome they are doing better than could be expected, even if it's never as fast as we would like. I had my car for two years before I could drive an all SC trip, and it was almost two years before I could use any SC. RV parks worked just fine back then, if you planned your trip right. Now there are other DC charging options (assuming you have the adapter). Sure, I'd always use an SC if possible, but I wouldn't let the lack of one keep me from going somewhere I wanted to go.

 

[ReddyLeaf]

Without SC's, I would not have a Tesla. Period! For the past five years I've averaged 7000 mi/yr on the Leaf. Somehow I managed to put 12,000 mi on the Tesla in the first 7 months of ownership! Some people just won't purchase until there are SC's nearby or for their chosen route. The lack of stations in middle America is certainly impacting a few decisions.

Why has it taken so long? It's a lot of work. However, let's all crowd-source and help Tesla move faster. If you have a route that needs a SC, then send specific addresses, businesses, and contacts to Tesla. Better yet, talk directly to hotel and restaurant business owners who might benefit from a SC. I've done this in a number of locations and, although I haven't seen anything yet, it's still early. As batteries degrade, more Tesla's are purchased, and future models get SC-capability, the density of stations will have to increase. The spacing will likely decrease to 50-100 miles all across the network. We're already seeing fill in where there are high numbers (SFO, LA, NYC).

 

[efusco]

Without SC's, I would not have a Tesla. Period! For the past five years I've averaged 7000 mi/yr on the Leaf. Somehow I managed to put 12,000 mi on the Tesla in the first 7 months of ownership! Some people just won't purchase until there are SC's nearby or for their chosen route. The lack of stations in middle America is certainly impacting a few decisions.

Why has it taken so long? It's a lot of work. However, let's all crowd-source and help Tesla move faster. If you have a route that needs a SC, then send specific addresses, businesses, and contacts to Tesla. Better yet, talk directly to hotel and restaurant business owners who might benefit from a SC. I've done this in a number of locations and, although I haven't seen anything yet, it's still early. As batteries degrade, more Tesla's are purchased, and future models get SC-capability, the density of stations will have to increase. The spacing will likely decrease to 50-100 miles all across the network. We're already seeing fill in where there are high numbers (SFO, LA, NYC).

I did 22,000 miles per year for 3 years without superchargers.

 

[jerry33]

I did 22,000 miles per year for 3 years without superchargers.

Superchargers are a nice to have, not a necessity. 65K miles in three years.

 

[David_Cary]

You know I have been at 4 supercharger sites but my longest trip has been 250 miles. I realize there are some road warriors out there but what percentage of Tesla buyers are road warriors. I know several Tesla owners - including 2 very low VINs. I can tell you they have never left the state. I did once but just to northern SC so I'm not sure that counts.

I'm not sure what demographic buys a $100k and then drives 500 miles. Obviously it exists and I can appreciate that. But it has to be single digit percentages of buyers. The depreciation alone buys a plane ticket. Hopefully most people who buy a $100k car make $100+ an hour so the time spent in the car and not working is another cost.

Even EV only households are probably single digit percentages. I'm an all EV household but the only one I know. People I know with Tesla's typically drive the ICE when the trip would require a SC. I'm driving with a group to Asheville (250 miles) and we are taking an ICE despite the adequate SC network and a new one in Asheville. Why - $500 depreciation on my car vs $100 on another + $50 in gas.

I think it is great that enthusiasts drive 500+miles but it isn't a "normal" use case.

The map is mostly a selling point. Proof that you can take a trip - not that you actually do it. Tesla sees this now with SCs in the fly over states servicing very few cars. So they are probably slowing down in those areas. I mean a $250,000 station that services 200 cars a year isn't exactly a good ROI. Imagine if the users had to actually pay that cost.

Like I said, I use superchargers. I use them in relatively dense corridors for medium distance trips. I suspect 90% of supercharger use is the same. They will build it but there is this thing called cash burn. It is unsustainable and with economy slowing and oil in the toilet, Tesla has to be practical.