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Then we're doomed for extinction, because you can't fix stupid, lazy, and greedy. It's inherent to the human condition. Maybe AI's replacing humans is the best thing to preserve "humanity" and all other living things?

That's the kind of discourse that I'm trying to point (sarcasm or not, thank you). Transhumanism is based on a bizarre idea of the human condition that negates the concept of culture ("why bother, it's our nature").

I encourage you to read books like Weapons of Math Destruction: How Big Data Increases Inequality and Threatens Democracy which shows why technology can not fix social or political issues by itself (smart or not, narrow or general).

Like drugs, technology (technê) can only be positive if used with therapy (therapeuei). Without therapy, there's no difference between poison and remedy.

Excerpt from Episteme and Techne (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy):
In Plato's view, the ability to explain why he does what he does is one of the most important characteristics of craft. In the Charmides, Socrates says that we test the physician by questioning him since he understands health (Charm. 170e5-7). Expanding on the idea of testing, Socrates says they will investigate the physician in what he says and in what he does, on whether what he says is true and whether what he does is right (171b7-9). This theoretical side of craft is further developed in the Gorgias. In his conversation with Polus and later in his conversation with Callicles, Socrates carries on a sustained reflection about craft. In his conversation with Polus, Socrates distinguishes four crafts (technai: medicine, physical training, judging, and legislating; the first pair are concerned with the body and the latter with the soul (464b). These crafts provide their care always for the best, either of the body or of the soul (464c). Unlike empiric practice (empeiria), technê has an account to give by which it provides the things it provides, an account of what their nature is, so that it can say the cause of each (465a). In the conversation with Callicles, Socrates returns to this account, when he seems especially interested in the ability of technê to give an account. He says medical technê investigates the nature of the thing it cares for (therapeuei) and the cause of what it does and has an account to give of each of them (501a). The context shows that what medicine cares for is health, so it has an account to give of health, which is the cause of its actions.

What is the technology for? How is it used? For who? By who? Why? Those questions may seem very philosophical (esp. for this shorting oil thread...) but they are essential and become all the more critical as we approach the critical point of the current system.

I respect you and take your comments with great consideration but I think your way of thinking – which doesn't take therapeuei i.e ethics into account – will end up as an impediment to Tesla's mission.
 
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No, we are not talking about a half-life based on spontaneous degradation. Carbon eventually finds its way back into geological layer beyond the biosphere. So there is very slow process of re-fossilization and we can model the median time it takes for a carbon atom to go randomly from emission into the biosphere to geological deposition, source to sink. That median time to deposition is called the half-life.

Compartment models with sinks have exponential decay in the long run.
Multi-compartment model - Wikipedia
Exponential decay - Wikipedia
CO2 doesn't degrade. It just moves around (per your compartment models). Changes in CO2 in any of the compartments have (usually) deleterious effects.
As far as "re-fossilization" goes. It doesn't.
First, you need to have CO2 about 800 ppm (we're getting there) to have a uniform warm environment where plants can flourish and actually transform the CO2 into carbohydrates(and raise O2 levels to 35%) . Then a few million years to bury the plants deep in the earth and transform them into fossil fuels. This takes a few hundred million years. Not happening in anybody's lifetime.
(Incidentally, ocean levels were 120 m above current levels.)
Carboniferous - Wikipedia
 
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Large ‘Tesla ships’ all-electric container barges are launching this autumn

Well, this warms my heart. The Dutch are making battery electric barges that haul 280 shopping containers. The barges are retrofitted with electric motors while the batteries are in shipping containers, which can be charged on shore.

That's a really straightforward design. I'm not sure how 6 barges moving 280 containers at a time are supposed to replace 23,000. I can't make that math work. But here's a simple alternative. One semi can haul 1 or 2 shipping containers. So 6 barges could do the work of 840 to 1680 semi trucks. Assuming high utilization of both trucks and barges, a semi would consume around 1.3 b/d of diesel. So times a mid value of 1260, these 6 barges could be offsetting some 1600 b/d diesel. That's some super simplistic math, but given that diesel demand grew by 262 kb/d last year, knocking out 1.6kb/d with just six barges could be the start of something big. How many other barges could be electrified around the world? I especially like how the shipping container approach allows for onshore charging. A utility can easily tap such a system to help balance load. So it works great with wind and solar.
 
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Large ‘Tesla ships’ all-electric container barges are launching this autumn

Well, this warms my heart. The Dutch are making battery electric barges that haul 280 shopping containers. The barges are retrofitted with electric motors while the batteries are in shipping containers, which can be charged on shore.

That's a really straightforward design. I'm not sure how 6 barges moving 280 containers at a time are supposed to replace 23,000. I can't make that math work. But here's a simple alternative. One semi can haul 1 or 2 shipping containers. So 6 barges could do the work of 840 to 1680 semi trucks. Assuming high utilization of both trucks and barges, a semi would consume around 1.3 b/d of diesel. So times a mid value of 1260, these 6 barges could be offsetting some 1600 b/d diesel. That's some super simplistic math, but given that diesel demand grew by 262 kb/d last year, knocking out 1.6kb/d with just six barges could be the start of something big. How many other barges could be electrified around the world? I especially like how the shipping container approach allows for onshore charging. A utility can easily tap such a system to help balance load. So it works great with wind and solar.

Container approach allows for battery swapping.. Load it the same way you load other containers. Seems like a great approach. Question is, how does it affect the economics? Move the economics, you also move demand.
 
CO2 doesn't degrade. It just moves around (per your compartment models). Changes in CO2 in any of the compartments have (usually) deleterious effects.
As far as "re-fossilization" goes. It doesn't.
First, you need to have CO2 about 800 ppm (we're getting there) to have a uniform warm environment where plants can flourish and actually transform the CO2 into carbohydrates(and raise O2 levels to 35%) . Then a few million years to bury the plants deep in the earth and transform them into fossil fuels. This takes a few hundred million years. Not happening in anybody's lifetime.
(Incidentally, ocean levels were 120 m above current levels.)
Carboniferous - Wikipedia
Ok, thanks. This source may be helpful, FAQ 10.3 - AR4 WGI Chapter 10: Global Climate Projections. The confusion I was having was between lifetime in atmosphere, which is a half-life just under 100 years and the re-cycling of that gas between other compartments (ocean, terrestrial biosphere). Per linked source, "While more than half of the CO2 emitted is currently removed from the atmosphere within a century, some fraction (about 20%) of emitted CO2 remains in the atmosphere for many millennia. Because of slow removal processes, atmospheric CO2 will continue to increase in the long term even if its emission is substantially reduced from present levels." So it is the 20% or so that is stuck in a very long tail. So as one model shows, even if we cut all fossil carbon emission today, atmospheric carbon would decline early industrial levels in a century or so, but would be stuck there for millennia. So while moving to a zero emissions world could allow atmospheric CO2 ppm to backtrack a bit we are still locking in higher base level that will persist for millennia. See chart a).
 
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Container approach allows for battery swapping.. Load it the same way you load other containers. Seems like a great approach. Question is, how does it affect the economics? Move the economics, you also move demand.
Hmm, moving the container should have trivial cost because port and barge are optimized to do just that. There may be some labor involved in overseeing the charging. Otherwise the operating costs would be near the cost of the power, near the cost of stationary storage. On the capex side, you got the cost of the containers, batteries and chargers. Again this is comparable to stationary storage.

Stationary storage with renewable wind or solar easily beats running a diesel genset. That's essentially the comparison here, plus a little handling of large containers.

I've got to think that the economics are quite good. It does make me wonder if Tesla would do well to produce a containerized version of Powerpacks. Seems they could cram multiple MWh into one shipping container and figure out a way to automate charging/discharging. I'm sure we could come up with other clever uses for this beyond powering barges.
 
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We can, if we throw our intelligence and industrial civilization at the problem, fix and sequester carbon faster than the traditional "plant growth / sink to the bottom of the seabed / millions of years to turn into rock" method.

I am highly doubtful that humanity will actually do this, but we *can*. We have carbon-negative industrial methods; we have aggressively carbon-fixing algae which we can speed up the growth of; and we know how to sink them deep enough that they'll stay sequestered.
 
We can, if we throw our intelligence and industrial civilization at the problem, fix and sequester carbon faster than the traditional "plant growth / sink to the bottom of the seabed / millions of years to turn into rock" method.

I am highly doubtful that humanity will actually do this, but we *can*. We have carbon-negative industrial methods; we have aggressively carbon-fixing algae which we can speed up the growth of; and we know how to sink them deep enough that they'll stay sequestered.

All true. But just as much as it is insanity to keep giving blood transfusions to an injured person instead of stopping the bleeding of a wound it is insanity to keep burning carbon fuels in the first place.

I do think we will need to think about carbon sequestering but the key focus should be on stopping making the problem worse in the first place. (I know you are not suggesting what I react to here...)
 
We can, if we throw our intelligence and industrial civilization at the problem, fix and sequester carbon faster than the traditional "plant growth / sink to the bottom of the seabed / millions of years to turn into rock" method.

I am highly doubtful that humanity will actually do this, but we *can*. We have carbon-negative industrial methods; we have aggressively carbon-fixing algae which we can speed up the growth of; and we know how to sink them deep enough that they'll stay sequestered.
I'm still stuck more on the economic problem than the technical problem.

How about this as technical fix? Make plastics from renewable biomass feed stock. Then properly bury all plastics after use.

So the bio feed stock like agricultural waste extracts carbon from the atmosphere through photosynthesis. Then proper disposal seals the carbon captured in plastic away from re-entering the atmosphere, ocean or terrestrial biosphere. So there is a net reduction of carbon in circulation.

Technically this works. But how do you pay for it. First, the bioplastics are useful products. Consumers will be well motivated to use bioplastics if they are cheaper and at least as good as plastics derived from fossil feed stocks (oil, natural gas, and gasified coal). If a lower price of bioplastics cannot be obtained at sufficient scale, then a tax on fossil sourced plastics could be pursued. But this is substituting an economic problem for a political challenge. Second, how can economics drive proper disposal of all plastics? This is essentially the problem that is filling the oceans up with plastic already. I can't see a pure market solution here. We need governments to intervene. A tax on fossil plastics could provide revenue for bounties for collection and proper disposal of plastics. Here the asymmetric tax on fossil but not bio sourced plastics would incentivize bioplastics, but in long run as bioplastics dominate, the revenue may be insufficient for collection and disposal of all plastics.

An additional benefit to the plastic tax would be to incentivize recycling of plastic as that would avoid the tax. So here recycled and bio sourced plastics would be excluded from taxation.

So there's my proposal. Ultimately it must be sold to the politicians of the world to work. I don't think it really requires any new technology. Bioplastics are a thing and so is recycling. Of course, there is always room for innovation.

Anyone care to take a stab at sizing this up? How much carbon could bioplastic sequestration remove per year?
 
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I'm still stuck more on the economic problem than the technical problem.
I tend to think that the economic problem is mostly a political problem. Obviously, if externalities were being properly charged for, we'd have no problems at all. We're essentially dealing with long-standing corruption where those who pollute don't have to pay for their mess, and bribe politicians to continue to not have to pay for it.

(Under ancient common law, they *do* have to pay for it, and the same is true in the legal systems of most of the world, but they've been getting away with not paying for it since the Industrial Revolution started, so... corruption.)

We will have to make an end-run around the corruption where we can, as with solar panels and batteries. For this, I think perhaps the most important key is to pour money into the commercialization of carbon-negative concrete technologies.

Your plastics sequestration idea will work well. There is an advantage here: people don't like ordinary landfills and it's getting expensive to send things to them. If we can make the sequestration cheaper than a regular landfill, city garbage departments will jump on the savings.
 
I tend to think that the economic problem is mostly a political problem. Obviously, if externalities were being properly charged for, we'd have no problems at all. We're essentially dealing with long-standing corruption where those who pollute don't have to pay for their mess, and bribe politicians to continue to not have to pay for it.

(Under ancient common law, they *do* have to pay for it, and the same is true in the legal systems of most of the world, but they've been getting away with not paying for it since the Industrial Revolution started, so... corruption.)

We will have to make an end-run around the corruption where we can, as with solar panels and batteries. For this, I think perhaps the most important key is to pour money into the commercialization of carbon-negative concrete technologies.

Your plastics sequestration idea will work well. There is an advantage here: people don't like ordinary landfills and it's getting expensive to send things to them. If we can make the sequestration cheaper than a regular landfill, city garbage departments will jump on the savings.
How does carbon-negative concrete work? I'm not familiar with that one.
 
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I suspect he means concrete tech, not concrete concrete as in calcium carbonate?? Or am I barking up a brick wall? Happened before ...

I believe he means literally as he said:
How Carbon Negative Cement Works

In this article, one of the cements talked about is projected to take ~200 lbs of carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere to make it (net), where current concrete adds about 1800 lbs of carbon dioxide to the air per ton (between fuel consumption and carbon fixed in the raw ingredients, and driven off in the manufacturing process).


I'm thinking that carbon negative concrete, usable in road construction, in a future world with limited asphalt available would make for a fantastically large carbon sink. If only the technology works and the cost works.
 
New NASA Study Solves Climate Mystery, Confirms Methane Spike Tied to Oil and Gas

NASA study finds oil and gas industry as source of 68% of methane emissions. Methane emissions have been on the increase as more gas is being used for power generation and as fracking has increased.

This research casts doubt on whether replacing coal with natural gas is an effective strategy for fighting climate change. Methane is a much more potent warming gas than carbon dioxide even if it is removed more quickly. So increasing methane in an effort to decrease carbon dioxide seems to be a tradeoff between faster climate change and longer lasting climate change.

Replacing coal with renewables and natural gas peakers with batteries would seem to be a more direct route to heading off climate change.

But there are other disturbing implications.

There are renewable sources of natural gas, but methane is methane. Much of the mathane emission problem is around handling and distributing gas, not the actual combustion of gas. So while RNG may be net zero carbon when combusted, it can still be a serious source of methane emissions along the way.

A carbon tax may well backfire if it unwittingly leads to an increase in methane. We should probably recalibrate our language to advocate for a greenhouse gas emissions tax or GHG tax, rather than a carbon tax. A political problem here is that much of the oil and gas industry has been warming up to a carbon tax, but to parse this out this gives oil and gas the upper hand against coal. A comprehensive GHG tax would not so easily throw coal under the bus to the benefit of natural gas. Rather, it would disadvantage all fossil fuels with respect to renewables and storage. Of course, a narrow carbon tax may still be a shrewd divide and conquer political strategy, but I suspect that it is risky.

Methane emissions also cast doubt on oil and gas as feed stock for plastics and other petrochemicals. The problem is that drilling for oil or gas is itself a major emission of methane, and so is piping it to processing and petrochem plants. So the oil industry has been promoting the idea that it will have long lasting growth markets in petrochem, but even this may be at odds with slowing climate change.

As transportation becomes electrified, this will reduce carbon dioxide emissions. However, methane emission could remain and become the relatively more significant problem. The complexity of trying to halt all GHG emissions could impede progress into deep decarbonization. So we need to be very careful about solutions that lower CO2 at the expense of increasing methane. So far wind, solar, and batteries as well as hydro and nuclear seem most promising for reducing all GHGs. Bioenergy may have some methane issues with gasification. RNG may have issues. Hydrogen fuel cells have lots of issues. And all fossil fuels for pretty much any use is very problematic.

One nice difference between methane and carbon dioxide is that methane may not create as much long term damage as carbon dioxide. So there may be some low threshold of methane emissions that sustainable, while for carbon dioxide well need to press toward zero or even negative emissions. A future generation may be more challenged to control methane emissions than carbon dioxide. But it seems the more built up the CO2 levels are, the less leeway there could be for managing methane.

Nevertheless, the central challenge for the present generation is simply to cut fossil dependency. Switch gas for coal is not going far enough.