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Little things like this will keep happening all over the world:

Copenhagen to get CO2-neutral 'harbour buses'

(also ref. the article on electrek on electric boats)

These harbour buses are ferries that go pretty much 24/7 (well, maybe 18/7) so I expect them to save quite a bit of diesel... On top, the current boats seem to be quite dirty with regards to their emissions...

It is strange EU regulates how much power vacuum cleaners can draw because of CO2 implications but doesn't ban bunker fuel in ships inside EU waters.

I know there are international agreements to lower sulfur content in bunker fuel in the future but jeez.
 
This thread has gone on a long time -- jhm, can you remind me what year our consensus estimates for peak oil demand were? I'm trying to match it up against the collapse of the fracking bubble, which is starting to look like it'll be circa 2020.

I think our peak demand estimates were centering around 2023, which means we should get one last oil price spike as ValueAnalyst was predicting... but I'm not sure I'm remembering correctly.
 
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Little things like this will keep happening all over the world:

Copenhagen to get CO2-neutral 'harbour buses'

(also ref. the article on electrek on electric boats)

These harbour buses are ferries that go pretty much 24/7 (well, maybe 18/7) so I expect them to save quite a bit of diesel... On top, the current boats seem to be quite dirty with regards to their emissions...
It's nice, but it's government. So it's not that exciting. We need cost parity.
 
It's nice, but it's government. So it's not that exciting. We need cost parity.

I disagree. First, EV incentives have proven helpful in many markets (just like coal, gas and oil subsidies are propping up a polluting industry). Second, we could have a long debate about public/private/government here: yes, the government provides the framework for operating public transport in Denmark, but it is operated by private sector companies who will be kicked-out if they don't perform / regularly have to compete again to retain their contracts.
If I'm not mistaken, then the government will pay for the initial install of some charging infrastructure which you could argue is similar to paving a road in order to enable companies to settle & trade.

(By the way, I'm not a Dane, I just happen to live here. I have lived many places world-wide. The way it works in Denmark is pretty fantastic in comparison to what I have seen elsewhere).

This thread has gone on a long time -- jhm, can you remind me what year our consensus estimates for peak oil demand were? I'm trying to match it up against the collapse of the fracking bubble, which is starting to look like it'll be circa 2020.

I think our peak demand estimates were centering around 2023, which means we should get one last oil price spike as ValueAnalyst was predicting... but I'm not sure I'm remembering correctly.

I say that's optimistic. When would you think the next recession will hit?
 
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OK, I checked back to page 196 -- we were coming up with dates from 2021-2025 for peak oil demand. The modelling still looks good. Note, any recession should *accelerate* this; I'm assuming no recession.

I am less certain about when the fracking bubble will pop, but it's now been reduced to basically just the Permian (Bakken is over, done, dead), and the decline curves for the Permian get steeper every year. The backlog of DUCs may take them to 2023, but they may just max out in 2020.
 
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OK, I checked back to page 196 -- we were coming up with dates from 2021-2025 for peak oil demand. The modelling still looks good. Note, any recession should *accelerate* this; I'm assuming no recession.

I am less certain about when the fracking bubble will pop, but it's now been reduced to basically just the Permian (Bakken is over, done, dead), and the decline curves for the Permian get steeper every year. The backlog of DUCs may take them to 2023, but they may just max out in 2020.
Yeah, my latest modeling which is based on primary energy consumption (per BP data) has suggested an earlier peak for crude than what modeling EV adoption alone would suggest. Of course, EV alone is not going to be accurate because it only looks at one particular threat to oil demand, ignoring efficiency, other alternatives and as you point out economic disruptors such as a recession. The primary energy consumption modeling is more comprehensive in scope, but it also does not address economic shocks.

Just to review, my primary energy models suggests the following peaks

2013 coal peak
2022 total fossil (coal, crude and natural gas) peak
2023 crude peak
2024 natural gas peak

The primary problem for fossil fuels is that wind and solar are adding so much new energy each year that it increasingly satisfies the global demand for growth in energy.

Indeed, my model suggests that in 2019 non-hydro renewable growth will overtake that of fossils, adding more incremental energy than all fossil fuels combined. I'm not sure exactly what this point should be called. It simply represents the time when most of our need for incremental energy is satisfied by renewables. And this is just a prelude to the peak in fossil (expected 2022), beyond which there is no need for incremental energy from fossils. This is really quite a short span of time in which we come to recognize that a growing global economy no longer needs a growing supply of fossil fuels.

But what about a recession? A recession would slow the pace of energy demand growth and may even force a contraction in total primary energy consumption. I believe a recession would be bad specifically for fossil fuel demand. It certainly was in the last recession. The question is how bad could it now be for renewables and EVs? To some extent that depends on how severe and long lasting the next recession will be. A mild and short recession might not be so bad for renewables and EVs. For example, Tesla is limited by how quickly it can actually ramp of production of Model 3 and other future models. So a slow up in the economy would not register as decline in demand for Tesla cars. This would give Tesla an opportunity to gain market share fast from ICE makers, as they slow production through a recession. Likewise, fossil fuel power plans would idle more, but continue to age. Installations of solar and wind could continue apace in a mild, short recessions. Thus, renewables too could catch up a bit in taking share from fossil generators.

Unfortunately, in a long, severe recession even renewables and EVs could slow. Perhaps the interesting question in severe recession is how renewables and EV compete as the economy recovers. So as demand comes back, they are positioned to benefit from the bulk of that recovery. If they outcompete in the recovery, then the demand that was lost to fossils may never really come back. Fossils would have taken a permanent hit to demand. This opens up the curious possibility that all fossils may peak together leading into a recession.

We are so close to fossil peaks under a healthy economy that the peaks could be even sooner under if the economy goes bad. Fossil peaks could be just one recession away.
 
But what about a recession? A recession would slow the pace of energy demand growth and may even force a contraction in total primary energy consumption. I believe a recession would be bad specifically for fossil fuel demand. It certainly was in the last recession.

I think conceptually for existing capacity any recession would be bad for fossil fuels: solar panels will keep producing energy no matter what the state of Wall St. Even if the guy owning the solar panels goes "bankwupt" the cells will still produce. Fossil fuels however, need constant capital to produce energy, this will suffer. Also the marginal costs of fossil fuel will never be able to compete with marginal costs of renewables - so I assume for existing capacity renewables (Wind and Solar) will do just fine.

More interesting is the case of additional capacity: here the question is, if a recession would kill the access to capital. On the one hand, this may well happen on the other hand, many federal reserve banks have a policy of "free money" during economic downturns to stimulate the economy. The more cheap loans, the better for renewables.

Ironically, a well working, much expanding and booming economy with high capital costs would be ideal for fossil fuels as you could expand capacity fast without front-loading all capex.

The question is how bad could it now be for renewables and EVs? To some extent that depends on how severe and long lasting the next recession will be. A mild and short recession might not be so bad for renewables and EVs. For example, Tesla is limited by how quickly it can actually ramp of production of Model 3 and other future models. So a slow up in the economy would not register as decline in demand for Tesla cars. This would give Tesla an opportunity to gain market share fast from ICE makers, as they slow production through a recession. Likewise, fossil fuel power plans would idle more, but continue to age. Installations of solar and wind could continue apace in a mild, short recessions. Thus, renewables too could catch up a bit in taking share from fossil generators.

I would say a recession is likely to be alright for Tesla (be prepared for many FUD articles claiming the contrary though). But I would argue it is bad for EV adoption overall: the worse the times get, the less likely folks are to buy a new (electric) car and thus, the worse any car maker but Tesla would be off. As EVs are a money losing proposition for the legacy car makers (they are being dragged utterly unwillingly into the EV era) they would shelf these projects first, ask for more exceptions to emission regulation etc.
 
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hmmm, a trend reversal in China, after about a decade, sedans are up vs SUVs
upload_2018-8-23_9-3-52.png


China - Flash report, Sales volume, 2018 - MarkLines Automotive Industry Portal

this is a challenging issue for the automakers. if the world's dominant EV market prefers sedans vs hatch, but the automakers just make EV hatch/mini SUVs like LEAF, e Golf, Bolt etc then there is a scale problem. (add that to the issue that highway range is better with sedans)

fwiw Ford USA is basically eliminating sedans, they can't make profit selling sedans anyway (unless its a mustang)
 
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hmmm, a trend reversal in China, after about a decade, sedans are up vs SUVs
View attachment 327983

China - Flash report, Sales volume, 2018 - MarkLines Automotive Industry Portal

this is a challenging issue for the automakers. if the world's dominant EV market prefers sedans vs hatch, but the automakers just make EV hatch/mini SUVs like LEAF, e Golf, Bolt etc then there is a scale problem. (add that to the issue that highway range is better with sedans)

fwiw Ford USA is basically eliminating sedans, they can't make profit selling sedans anyway (unless its a mustang)
Wow, total auto sales are down 4% y/y in China. Meanwhile NEVs are up 48%. In absolute terms, this is more striking. The decline was about 79k in total vehicles, while the increase in NEV was 84k. So conventional vehicles must have fallen by about 163k. I estimate, about 87k of this decline is from SUVs and MPVs.

This is not good for oil demand. NEVs have reached a scale that can satisfy nearly 5% of growth in vehicle demand, while consumers are moving toward more fuel efficient vehicles. China could be quite close to a peak in demand for gasoline and diesel. That is, the total fuel consumption of the ICE fleet could be lower a year from now and keep declining thereafter.

For new energy vehicles (NEVs), production reached 90,000 units, up 53.6% y/y, and sales totaled 84,000 units, up 47.7% y/y.
Among NEVs, EV production reached 68,000 units, up 45.4% y/y, while EV sales reached 60,000 units, up 33.6% y/y. Plug-in hybrid vehicle (PHV) production totaled 23,000 units for a y/y increase of 85.3%, while sales totaled 24,000 units for a y/y increase of 101.1%.
 
With the recent announcement of the Clean Power Plan by Trump and his admin, I thought this was a timely piece. This pretty much shows what has been talked about in here, but another data point none-the-less.

https://www.rmi.org/wp-content/uplo...ergy_Future_for_Western_Cooperatives_2018.pdf

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

The emergence of very low-cost renewable energy pricing in the United States has created unprecedented opportunities for utilities currently reliant on high-cost, legacy generating assets, particularly in the Mountain West. The drop in renewables pricing is also casting into doubt the competitiveness and viability of operators that are slow to transition. In this report, as an indicative case study of this broader trend, we examine the cost-savings opportunities renewables price declines have made possible for Tri-State Generation & Transmission Association and its member co-ops. Specifically, we consider their opportunity to engage in large-scale procurement of costeffective renewable energy projects, while maintaining system reliability requirements. We analyze two illustrative power supply portfolios based on publicly available data, and find that procurement of new wind and solar projects represents approximately $600 million of cost-savings potential for Tri-State’s members through 2030, versus continued reliance on legacy coal-fired generation. Scaled adoption of renewable energy by Tri-State could also mitigate risks of revenue loss and cost increases associated with reliance on existing assets for electricity supply, reducing the rate increases under a range of risk scenarios by 30% to 60%. The analysis presented in this case study illustrates that immediate collective action between wholesale energy providers and member co-ops can mitigate risks, identify regionally appropriate solutions, and leverage aggregate buying power, enabling an efficient and equitable transition toward a more cost-effective energy supply mix.
 
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Wow, total auto sales are down 4% y/y in China. Meanwhile NEVs are up 48%. In absolute terms, this is more striking. The decline was about 79k in total vehicles, while the increase in NEV was 84k. So conventional vehicles must have fallen by about 163k. I estimate, about 87k of this decline is from SUVs and MPVs.

This is not good for oil demand. NEVs have reached a scale that can satisfy nearly 5% of growth in vehicle demand, while consumers are moving toward more fuel efficient vehicles. China could be quite close to a peak in demand for gasoline and diesel. That is, the total fuel consumption of the ICE fleet could be lower a year from now and keep declining thereafter.

That's why I have been harping on the recession topic so much: if folks drive less (incl. trucks) less oil is used. Moreover, in a country like China where (comparatively) many car owners are first time car owners a deferral to buy a car by only a few years could really tip the scales.

And then there is this: India’s Thirst For Oil Is Outpacing China | OilPrice.com

They say by 2024, India and not China will drive oil demand in Asia. The article focusses on how India faces issues with import capacity etc. but the real news (in my eyes) is: China is dead when it comes to demand growth for oil in only a few short years. India is doing everything not to be too dependent on imports. Both countries are driving renewables at an unprecedented pace.
 
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https://reneweconomy.com.au/us-rene...ail&utm_term=0_46a1943223-9d40142f31-40368705

basically, fossil fuel use to generate electricity, in US, down 10% from 70% to 60% in -->5 years.
from above article, numbers that somewhat agree

https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/content/assets/images/charts/Energy/Energy_2017_United-States.png

https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/content/assets/images/charts/Energy/Energy_2012_United-States.png

from the charts (A Quad is a Quadrillion BTU's which differ a bit from reneweconomy article from Australia
2012
Coal 15.9 Quads
Nat Gas 9.31 Quads
Nuke 8.05 Quads
33.26 Quads

Total Elec 38.1 Quads from all sources
87.3% from Nukes, coal, nat gas
75.8% from Coal and nat Gas in 2012

2017
Coal 12.7
Nat Gas 9.54
Nuke 8.42
30.66
82.4% from Nukes coal Nat gas (down 5%)
72.5% from coal and gas (down 3%)
Total Elec 37.2 from all sources
Coal declined 20%

Renewables
2012
Wind 1.36 Quads
PV 0.235
1.595
4% of electricity in 2012

2017
wind 2.35 (almost double)
PV 0.775 (more than triple)
3.125 Quads
10.2% of electricity in 2017
It looks like mainly coal and renewables are swapping places for electric generation due to simple economic reasons
 
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https://reneweconomy.com.au/us-rene...ail&utm_term=0_46a1943223-9d40142f31-40368705

basically, fossil fuel use to generate electricity, in US, down 10% from 70% to 60% in -->5 years.
from above article, numbers that somewhat agree

https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/content/assets/images/charts/Energy/Energy_2017_United-States.png

https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/content/assets/images/charts/Energy/Energy_2012_United-States.png

from the charts (A Quad is a Quadrillion BTU's which differ a bit from reneweconomy article from Australia
2012
Coal 15.9 Quads
Nat Gas 9.31 Quads
Nuke 8.05 Quads
33.26 Quads

Total Elec 38.1 Quads from all sources
87.3% from Nukes, coal, nat gas
75.8% from Coal and nat Gas in 2012

2017
Coal 12.7
Nat Gas 9.54
Nuke 8.42
30.66
82.4% from Nukes coal Nat gas (down 5%)
72.5% from coal and gas (down 3%)
Total Elec 37.2 from all sources
Coal declined 20%

Renewables
2012
Wind 1.36 Quads
PV 0.235
1.595
4% of electricity in 2012

2017
wind 2.35 (almost double)
PV 0.775 (more than triple)
3.125 Quads
10.2% of electricity in 2017
It looks like mainly coal and renewables are swapping places for electric generation due to simple economic reasons

Nice. So coal lost 3.2 quads while gas and nuke picked up 0.6 combined and wind and PV picked up 1.53 combined. It's getting much harder to say that coal is being mostly replaced by natural gas while renewables are too small to matter. Clearly renewables are in the driver's seat now. Gas alone picked up just 0.23 quads which is less than a sixth of what wind and solar took.
 
...
Unfortunately, in a long, severe recession even renewables and EVs could slow. Perhaps the interesting question in severe recession is how renewables and EV compete as the economy recovers. ...
I'm not sure that's going to be true next time around, even a bad recession will likely be positive for Ev/renewables. In 08/9 one of the first things people did was get rid of their gas guzzlers in favor of something more efficient. In a bad recession car sales slow big time, but people still buy new cars, businesses still need to update their fleets, leases run out, and this time people are going to evs and fortunately there are a lot more of them around now. I think the same will be similar with renewables although that might be even more regional than cars. IMO Tesla and ev's should thrive in even a minor depression as long as they could keep their supply chain going. In a major depression the supply chain might break down too much, but that might mean there are bigger things to be concerned about anyway. Edit: The only reason I can think of where this hypothesis wouldn't be true is if oil/coal prices decrease in step or better than the slowdown or if engines get way more efficient, and even then reduced maintainance costs would still be a driver.

*Sidenote-Around the time of the last recession or a little before I remember reading a blip in the local biz mag about a startup making electric cars and thought it would be great to see more electric development, the business I was working at was spending a lot on maintenance/fuel/electricity. I remember thinking it seemed like kind of a rough time to be doing it but hoped they would do a good job. Then a couple years later hearing about their IPO and getting a heck of a deal on a giant factory in the Bay Area...hard to believe what all that has snowballed into.
 
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California Moves to Require 100% Clean Electricity by 2045
Terms of Service Violation

A Carbon-Free California Requires a Lot More Cheap Batteries
Terms of Service Violation

"Achieving a 100 percent renewable energy target in California would require 36.3 million megawatt hours of energy storage, assuming the goal is met mostly through wind and solar, according to the Clean Air Task Force. That compares with 150,000 megawatt hours of storage available in the state including pumped-hydroelectric facilities, according to the group."
 
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